Talk:Québécois (word)/Archive 2

Racist? I agree that it would be racist to limit the meaning of québécois in French to a descendent of the French colonists. However, this is the English wiki, and in English the term Quebecois has a very specific meaning and refers to a very specific concept that has to do with ethnicity rather than with residence. I have never heard Quebecois being used in English to mean anything other than a Quebecer of French-Canadian descent. This is why I was careful to distinguish between a Quebecer and a Quebecois. I'm not a Quebecois, though I am a Quebecer.

Whether or not the concept is racist or not, the fact is that this is the meaning of the word. - Montréalais

The dictionaries do seem to think that "quebecois" includes any resident (see here and here), though they specify that its more narrow meaning is the French-speaking residents. I'm not sure how that would indicate pure ethnicity or descent, as there could also be Francophones of ethnic "English" or non-colonial descent. It could be that your interpretation is just the local English usage and not the general one, but I'm not certain. Scipius 19:06 Oct 10, 2002 (UTC)

FWIW, my Canadian Oxford gives "a francophone native or inhabitant of Quebec." I suspect they're being a little broad. I've never heard a Parisian immigrant to Quebec described in English as Quebecois, for the same reason that if a Quebecois moved to Belgium, he or she would not turn into a Walloon.

I admit it's a little confusing - most demonyms use the same word for an inhabitant/national as they do for a member of the ethnic group. My mom and I are both Canadian and American, but for opposite reasons (she's an American by birth who moved to Canada; I'm a Canadian by birth who has dual citizenship with the US). Quebec is somewhat clearer in having different words for the nationality than for the ethnicity, and this can sometimes cause confusion. - Montréalais

Do you think mentioning "pure laine" would clarify, or further confuse the issue? (And am I spelling that right?)Vicki Rosenzweig

It's a pretty separate issue, I think. Quebecois and pure laine are not synonyms. (I'm Scottish, but I'm not, um, pure laine Scottish, if you want.) - Montréalais

Dictionaries will typically favour the broad definition of "Québécois" as any resident of Québec, or any person with links to Québec irrespective of linguistic ties. (There is also the use in reference to the Québec French dialect but that is not in dispute here.) I am of course familiar with the term "Quebec(k)er" and view it as interchangeable with "Québécois" in its ethnic or national sense, but not in its linguistic sense. As a bilingual Canadian, I find "Quebecker" to be a somewhat illiterate term which I would not normally use. My francophone ancestors moved from Québec to Ontario in about the 1860s, and I certainly do not consider myself to be Québécois in any sense of the word.

The definition that Montréalais seeks to impose is one from a nationalist POV. It is not new. In using the term to apply to pure laine (or "old stock") people in Québec, it carries implications of special rights or privileges, Such semantic distortions have been used repeatedly to fan the ardour of nationalists. These suggestions of superiority are what make this usage racist. These 1995 comments from the World Jewish Congress provide insight into the minefield where Montréalais' definition can lead:

A History of Extremist Rhetoric

Parizeau's belligerent stance does not represent an entirely new phenomenon. The PQ has an uneven history in relation to minorities (and especially Jews) living in the province. Father Lionel-Adolphe Groulx, the patron saint of modern Quebecois nationalism, was an outspoken antisemite, and antisemitism in the 1930's was a prominent feature of French Canadian politics. It has also recently been revealed that prominent Quebecois politicians (including Father Groulx, Provincial Premier Maurice Duplessis and Montreal Mayor Camilien Houde) helped French "refugees" (Nazi collaborators fleeing justice) settle in Quebec to escape prosecution. It had been believed in some quarters that the Quebecois nationalists had abandoned the chauvinism and parochialism that had characterized the party in times past. In the most recent election, members of the province's ethnic minorities, including Jews, could be found amongst the PQ's activists and supporters. One North African Jew active in the separatist movement explained that "Quebec nationalism is not ethnic based; it is territorial, so I am comfortable with it." Mr Parizeau's remarks, however, left many such supporters feeling disappointed and isolated. Mr Parizeau is not the only chauvinist in his party. In the period preceding the election PQ MP Philippe Parc suggested in the Canadian parliament that ethnic minorities refrain from participating in the vote on the future of the province and allow "old stock Quebecois" to determine whether or not to secede. Across Canada, and even among certain quarters of the PQ, Parizeau's words produced outrage. Prime Minister Jean Chretien, a French Canadian, was shocked by the invective and roundly condemned it. PQ members who were not old stock Quebecois were especially upset. Edmond Omran, Director of the "Medical Aid for Palestine" office in Montreal, said it "felt like a slap in the face". Jack Silverstone, National Executive Director of the Canadian Jewish Congress declared that "to differentiate between classes of voters is reprehensible and racist". The Jewish Community was particularly outspoken in its condemnation. Better than most, Jews understand that a state in which there is any differentiation between citizens based on religion, race, national origin or roots is a state doomed to ruin.

A proposed definition that does not take this into account is not NPOV, and therfore intolerable. Eclecticology 08:19 Oct 11, 2002 (UTC)

Oh, for pity's sake, this is insane ! "Extremists use it..."? I find that personally insulting. I and everyone I know use it this way, and most of us are federalist anglophones! (not surprising, since we are talking about English usage !) The definition you wrote is a falsehood, personally contradicted by my example and the example of everyone I know, and I am reverting it.

I have explained the difference between Quebecois and pure laine to you. You are bringing in a host of irrelevant issues. That some Quebecois are racist, and some Jews feel and do not feel threatened by the sovereignist movement is completely irrelevant to a discussion of the Quebecois people. (All Quebecois are not sovereignist!)

"Quebecer is interchangeable with Quebecois in its ethnic... sense..." As written, you do not concede that Quebec(whatever) has any ethnic sense; you are using it only to refer (ooh, except for by those scary extremists) to all residents of Quebec, who are composed of a large variety of ethnicities.

"Special rights and privileges..."? Will you please explain the special rights and privileges involved with being Quebecois, according to the definition I wrote, and compare and contrast these with the special rights and privileges enjoyed by members of other noted ethnicities such as British-Canadian, Fleming, Turk, Picard, Valencian, Basque, Welsh, Heiltsuk, Han, Tamil, Uzbek, Dyirbal, or Inuk?

Tell me, does any other group of people have to go through this? Do you even concede that the French-Canadian people of Quebec even exist, or do we have to have that argument too? If so, under what title can we write about them? Can we write an article about the Walloons, the Basques, the Scots, or the Catalonians, without having to tie ourselves in knots detailing the difference between a Walloon and a "French-speaking resident of Belgium"? Are we even allowed to write about ethnic groups?

Look - I'm just trying to write an article that discusses the French-descended people of Quebec. I don't see how specifying their mere existence is racist. I'm going to try again, move up the difference between the English and French languages, in order to assuage what I understand can be a legitimate source of confusion. But if you don't think the description is a fair one, I would ask you to please hash it out in Talk. - Montréalais

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Okay... after some reflection I think I understand the origin of the conflict. Am I right in thinking that you took "descended from the French settlers" etc. to mean wholly or mostly descended? If so, that wasn't my intent - I meant this to refer to the French-Canadians of Quebec as opposed to (for example) recent Belgian immigrants. I'm of course aware that a lot of people who consider themselves Quebecois are nowhere near pure laine, and that pure laine is widely considered (as it is by me) to be a racist idea. I was referring to the descent of the ethnicity, not of the individuals.

For that reason, I've thoroughly reworded the definition, and added the term "pure laine" to contrast with it. I've also mentioned other Francophone ethnicities in Canada, as well as a description of some Quebecois cultural items which I'm about to expand (and could use some help with). If someone (you, perhaps, Eclecticology?) wanted to write/work on articles about the Franco-Ontariens, Franco-Manitobains, etc., this would be most helpful. Anyway, how does this look? - Montréalais

This is much improved; I had previously been puzzled about the relevance of the "Walloon" issue. I've parnethetically added "old stock" for the benefit of those who might take the reference to wool in a literal sense, and be thereby quite confused. I've also changed the reference to French-Canadian authors to Québécois, since that is what the article is all about. I've also removed Gabrielle Roy who was Franco-Manitoban.

One small issue that I would like accomodated is the fact that tourtière does not mean the same thing throughout Québec. Tourtière du lac St-Jean is a deep dish recipe that includes a variety of meat chunks (traditionally wild game) with potatoes, and a pastry covering; It is different from the small meat pies that you might find in Montreal.

I'll keep in mind, without any promise, the suggestions that you made about doing something for the other French-Canadian cultures; however, as is typical with many Wikipedians, I already have a very long list of topics that I would like to work on. Eclecticology

I'll see what I can do (once I return from indulging in highly Anglo traditional specialties in the middle of cottage-country Ontario (I haven't seen my aunt's family in three years, it's not my fault, I swear !! :). FWIW, I knew G.Roy was Franco-Manitoban, which is why I hedged by saying French-Canadian... I figured her writing was pretty important in QC culture (viz. Bonheur d'occasion... my metro station has a big mural commemorating her :)

Glad we were able to work this out. -- Montréalais

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I've moved this since it paints with an incredibly broad brush:

The anglophones primarily indentify to Canada (with Quebec as just a province), the francophones to Quebec (with Quebec as a nation), and the native populations do not recognize the borders established by the europeens imperialists at all. Miraculously, this country is one of the most peaceful on Earth.

- Montréalais 12:44 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

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I changed the first sentence of the second paragraph because Montréalais is right. In English, Québécois means a francophone Quebecker (sic) whose family has spoken French for at least a few generations, at least on one side (that's why Daniel Johnson and Georges Dor and Steve Penny are considered Québécois). The only authorities who think otherwise seem to be people who don't use the word routinely and in whose lives it is not an important concept. The phrase I replaced -- "can more specifically refer to a particular francophone ethnicity and culture" -- implies there is something else it can refer to. If somebody decides to revert they might add a citation to demonstrate what else the term designates. I also capitalized Québécois in the first sentence because as a noun it is capitalized in both French and English. Have to see if they've got Georges Dor on the list of Quebecois. Torontois

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Québécois vs. Quebecker

In the intro, when it says that Quebecker/Quebecer is the English equivalent of Québécois, which is it talking about?

1. word equivalency?

   the two words means identically, and are perfect translation

2. person equivalency?

   An English speaker in Quebec is called a Quebecker; a French Québécois.

I think it probably means the 2nd. Clarify? --Menchi 02:42 13 Jun 2003 (UTC)

And is that the French usage? I recall Mordecai Richler being described by a provincial cabinet minister as "pas de la famille." Jfitzg

The "Richler" comment has nothing to do with the description of what Québécois is. (Irrelevance) Québécois

If a prominent Québécois says that an English-speaking Jew doesn't belong to the Quebec family you're probably right that it's not relevant, but it sure as hell is revealing, eh? Québec pour les Québécois, et pour personne d'autre. Trontonian 20:19, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Hm. It is somewhat idiosyncratic, but I think it's an illustration of a certain mindset. It's not representative of the opinions of the whole society, but it does represent the opinions of a certain segment. I think there's something to be said for restoring it, but perhaps refactored so as not to give it more weight than it deserves. - Montréalais 18:02, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

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The statement "Quebec is home to a multi-ethnic society with a primarily francophone population, eleven First Nations, an anglophone minority and a wide variety of ethnic minorities" confuses categories. Francophone and anglophone are linguistic categories, First Nation is a legal one (since one may be an aboriginal person without belonging to a First Nation), and ethnic minority is an ethnic category. I did change native tribes to First Nations (native tribes made my skin crawl) but the original phrase is no better -- in Canada so-called tribes, First Nations, bands or whatever you want to call them are legal entities defined by treaty. A member of a First Nation will be a member of an ethnic minority, but will also often be either anglophone or francophone. Jfitzg

So I revised it. Jfitzg

Métis as French-Canadians and as a grouping

I changed "French-Canadian cultural groupings" to "French-speaking cultural groups" because considering all we have done to them I don't know that Canadians really accept the Métis as Canadian. I may be wrong, though, so feel free to change it back. However, I do think "group" is a better word than "grouping," which seems to me to imply an arbitrary aggregation. Métis culture goes back to the seventeenth century, so they seem to me better described as a group. Trontonian

The relevance /irrelevance of Mordecai Richler

I see Mordecai Richler has been excised from the article as irrelevant. Well, that's a very Quebecois idea, eh? Sarcasm aside, I think that he is relevant, but the references to him need to be worked into the article better. So I won't revert but will consider a better use of the references. Or a use of better references -- certainly there are plenty from Oh, Canada! Oh, Quebec! which could be used. Trontonian 20:55, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I decided the excision was justified. See User talk:Québécois. Trontonian 21:26, 13 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I have also added a bit of clarification about Parizeau's statement (which probably didn't represent his real opinions on the matter) and removed the assertion that immigrants choose to speak French. Given the pressure on immigrants to adopt French describing their adoption of the language as a choice is questionable. Trontonian 21:34, 13 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Gutting the article

If you're going to gut the article, how about logging in first? How about explaining why you're doing it? I'm open to arguments that the last massive deletion was justified, but apparently we're not to be made aware of any. If none are forthcoming I'm going to treat the deletion as an act of vandalism and revert the article. Jfitzg 22:37, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I agree, and I've restored the previous version for the time being. The Jacques Parizeau bit needs work, but that wasn't the way to go about it. - Montréalais 04:26, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I'm beginning to think buddy may have been right to delete the paragraph, but it is inappropriate and unWikilike to do it without at least stating a reason. Uppermost in my mind is that the issue of whether Québécois are necessarily French or not was raised early in the history of this article, and at length, so the passage seems to me on balance to be relevant. Jfitzg 23:22, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)

From a really pissed off person: To whoever keeps putting back the Québec bashing junk everytime, get the facts straight: The Québécois are not an ethnic group! The main ethnic group composing those who self-identify as Québécois are the (French) Canadians (aka the Canadiens). But they are not the only ethnic group making up this people! Québécois means all the citizens of Québec (YES, even those who don't identify as Québécois, the same way all Québécois are citizens of Canada even though a huge chunk of them don't agree to be called Canadians.)

Québécois IS NOT EQUAL TO French Canadian. The French Canadian ethnic group includes millions of people born out of French Canadian + Irish mariages (and others). According to the Canadian Irish Congress, 40% of the francophones in Québec have Irish ancestry! Wake up! You don't seem to understand the meaning of the word ethnicity! The word "ethnic" comes from Late Latin "ethnicus", which comes from the Greek "ethnikos", from "ethnos", meaning a people, a nation. A people is a sizable group of individuals sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage.

So the Irish are not a people to you, I take it. After all, large percentages have Norman, Flemish, Scottish, and English ancestry (and other ancestries). Incidentally, we don't speak Latin or ancient Greek any more, so how they used cognate terms is irrelevant. Jfitzg

Today, hundreds of thousands of Québécois simply have NO French roots at all (yes, even those who speak French too!).

Those who root back to the French colonists are today scatered across all of North America. If all these people had their identity based on their origins, there would be about 10 millions in the US and 8 million in Canada. These people are of French ancestry. This is not the case for all Québécois.

For the love of God, keep politics out of this page: this is an encyclopedia! We need facts and facts only!

To all morons who are brainwashed enough to think that québécois = french race = parizeau = fascism should really visit http://english.republiquelibre.org/ .

Okay, if you're the non-moronic guy here, show us some authoritative quotations where any anglophone Canadian has ever used the term to mean anything other than a francophone Quebecker. In Canadian English Québécois means a francophone Quebecker. I'd also say that Lucien Bouchard's description of the Québécois are a white race shows that the party named for this people certainly considers them to be an ethnic group. This party also has a policy of restricting the use of English and other languages, which also suggests that it sees the Québécois as francophone. Jfitzg 01:19, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I removed a line that is unnecessary in an encyclopedia. A statement of relevant facts is all that is required. NightCrawler 01:35, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Second: give weight to the ideas of someone using a pseudonym? NightCrawler

Buddy did identify himself on the edit as Mathieugp who is a user on the French side, so I removed my indignant stuff. Pis je lui ai laissé un petit message là-bas. Nothing nasty, or mostly not nasty, but I would like to see his answers to those questions. Jfitzg 01:50, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

It seems Mathieugp has never made any contributions to the French wikipedia, so I suspect his contribution here is going to end up being a piece of anonymous abuse. Maybe we'll get more! If he has that idea, though, I'd encourage him to check my user page, where he'll find there's no mystery about who I am. Some of us, at least, aren't ashamed of disagreeing with others. Jfitzg

Another removal: "and the control of the Anglo-American financial elite in the province" - It was no greater in Quebec than any other province. NightCrawler

The two revisions by 64.10.99.80 on November 4 were by me -- forgot to log back in. Jfitzg 14:20, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)