Talk:Murder of Garrett Foster

Recommended grammar change

Remove 'and Foster himself' from the following sentence. How can 'Foster himself' be 'breaking down in tears' if he's dead?

On April 7, 2023, after a week of deliberations, the jury found Perry guilty of murder, but not guilty of aggravated assault, with friends and family of Foster, and Foster himself, breaking down in tears as the guilty verdict was read. 2404:440C:2A22:2000:F5C3:AB75:5737:D9EC (talk) 23:45, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Footage

Was there any footage related to this incident released, like with Charlottesville? LichCake (talk) 07:42, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Not good footage. Only footage to my knowledge shows the opposite of Perry’s car rather than the side where the death occurred. TheXuitts (talk) 04:46, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

I've seen two video streams synced but can only make out the crowds retreating from a general direction in both of them. I've seen some stills which highlight cards and try to establish positions but none animated in real-time w/ the entire videos, sadly. LichCake (talk) 23:01, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Evidence

there's literally a picture of Foster aiming the gun at perry. 172.110.93.28 (talk) 22:17, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

That is not true. His gun is pointed almost straight down in the picture. Furthermore, Perry, in his own statement to the police said that he thought Foster was going to aim at him, not that Foster had aimed at him. Greg Boyle (talk) 22:58, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

whether he pointed the gun at him or not. Murder is murder, and thats that — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prizmadubs (talk • contribs) 01:42, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Seems closer to a 45-degree angle to me, but we shouldn't trust our lying eyes and should wait until reporters interpret that photograph on our behalf. LichCake (talk) 03:40, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Whatever image you saw, if it even exists, is not of the incident. TheXuitts (talk) 06:06, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Even the title of this article makes the agenda obvious. Whoever was the main contributer to the article us probably a paid left wing shill. 5.14.151.95 (talk) 10:29, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

This article just states the facts. Get out of your bubble. TheXuitts (talk) 15:35, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Fact is he was convicted, IMO every "murder" article probably ought to be "murder conviction of X" for better neutrality, since that a conviction happened is more readily agreed upon. LichCake (talk) 03:40, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

This aged poorly 2607:FEA8:2AA3:A200:813C:3C9D:899E:C069 (talk) 02:53, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia's premise of mediated "truth" has failed. One person's edits simply override the previous. Whomever stays the longest owns the "truth", it's ridiculous... 70.113.34.31 (talk) 17:27, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

recomendation to remove this article

this article accomplishes nothing other than act as a war field of accusations and misleading information and I would recommend a creation protection against further pages under this title Lergondo (talk) 06:13, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

The murder was one of the most significant events of the 2020 protests. The trial was also pretty significant, and the attempt to pardon Perry is a huge political event. The vandals will get bored soon and move on to trying to figure out which beers are too gay for them to drink or some shit like that. I don’t want to give them a heckler’s veto by removing a page just because they don’t like the facts. Greg Boyle (talk) 11:04, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

except it was not a murder, it was self defense against a gang of violent individuals, one of which approached him with an assault rifle while his friends blocked him off.

He had only two options in that moment, drive off, running over the one in front or shoot at the clear threat.

If this is the precedence you wish to set then I worry about the day your house is broken into because by your logic your just supposed to sit back and let them do whatever they want to you and your family, quit protecting violent criminals, your only outing yourself as a criminal too. Lergondo (talk) 22:57, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

For a minute there, I thought this recommendation might have been made by a good faith editor, and I interjected because I was concerned that it might be heeded. Thank you for clarifying that that is not the case. Greg Boyle (talk) 01:14, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Article Bias

Daniel Perry did not drive "into" a crowd of protestors. He drove towards, with the intent to peaceably pass by, a violent mob that was illegally blocking the road. Daniel Perry is entitled to the right to self defense just like anyone else. A hostile mob pointed a rifle at him and he had no other choice. I am sick and tired of so-called encyclopedia entries like this that are so completely biased and you don't even give the courts and governor a chance to sort things out before you make this slanderous, inaccurate article full of loaded, biased language. I regret ever donating to this so-called encyclopedia site that has become a cess pit of propaganda pages like this. Please clean up the obvious bias in this article and do better. - an anonymous oldschool wikipedia donor — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.79.140.252 (talk • contribs)

Your first point is simply a matter of how you're choosing to interpret the word "into". The rest is your irrelevant opinion, the courts already have "sorted things out", any decision the governor makes is also irrelevant to whether it was murder. --Pokelova (talk) 04:12, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Please "Drive towards" other US political and BLM related pages and I'm sure you'll find a wealth of pro-conservative bias

Folks like Perry have a method of misusing and misapplying stand your ground laws in order to get away with killing people they dislike, particilarly black people, after aggravating their would-be victim into reacting a certain way. Daniel Perry himself claimed he would kill people and then cry wolf on self defense. He failed to do this.

As for this article, RS explain both views pretty well. Whether or not he was actually "Defending himself" will be based on whoever is reading this, and their own biases, life experience, fears, etc. As your polar opposite, frankly, neither me nor you should be touching this article. MayDay2099 (talk) 01:25, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Hard to "aggravate a would be victim into reacting a certain way" when he drove into an area and several people with guns surrounded his car. I mean, there's several sources that talk about that part. Trying to feed that into the story is biased. 2604:CA00:13B:A9AE:0:0:A67:64F9 (talk) 20:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Feel free to include your perspective in the article or request an edit. I will be glad to insert it for you if I am able. Just make sure to use a source. MayDay2099 (talk) 18:48, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 August 2023

Add to the "Calls for pardon" section the fact that Daniel Perry's attorneys have filed a petition to pardon him to Governor Abbott. Source: and Truecrimefan22 (talk) 12:11, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done This has been pending for almost a month without action, so it's clear none of the people patrolling this queue are willing to implement it. You would likely get a faster response if you specified the exactl content you want added yourself. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 19:58, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

References

Shooter Pardoned

Need to change the status from "murdered" to "killed" accordingly. 69.150.253.30 (talk) 20:48, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Without sources saying the conviction was reversed there's no need to change the wording. XeCyranium (talk) 22:05, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Here's your reason: that Wikipedia is supposed to be an unbiased platform, and "murder" expresses a moral judgment.

But go ahead. Refuse. It will just confirm the growing perception that wikipedia is too leftist-biased to be objective. Nccsa186 (talk) 22:57, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Foster was killed regardless of what happened afterwards in the trial. Using the term "murder" when there is no consensus on the matter just shows Wikipedia's bias. "Killing" is a more neutral term, because WAS killed, everyone agrees on that one, so there is nothing wrong with using that term instead. Saying "Murder" implies intent, and nobody on that jury can get inside Perry's head and know for sure what he intended. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:985:800:8320:dcd2:f985:6986:684c (talk) 21:00, May 16, 2024 (UTC)

Perry was found guilty of murder, ergo "murdered" is the right term to use. Bondegezou (talk) 11:45, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Foster identity

Why not identify Foster as a USAF veteran in the first sentence, rather than just saying "man"? This kind of identifier is frequently accorded to bios of veterans of the armed services in less controversial cases. Facility with weapons, in private or in public, is obviously a part of being a veteran, and the crux of the case is that one serving soldier (Perry) saw a veteran (Foster) and assumed that the latter was not a lawful open-carrier with a background in safe weapons use, but instead a violent threat simply because he had a legally owned and displayed weapon on his person. Calling Foster simply a "man" implies that Perry was the only one acting with a highly trained awareness of threat, whereas clearly Foster was doing the same based on his own training in terms of Perry driving into a crowd. NicoloSambuca (talk) 00:10, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

As of 5/16/2024 Daniel Perry has been pardoned by Gov. Greg Abbot. This needs to be edited and updated.

update in verdict Jmurphy042000 (talk) 00:38, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

A pardon is a political act, not an “update in verdict.” Mr. Perry was set free; he was not exonerated. Greg Boyle (talk) 03:15, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

so you don't think the article should be updated to correspond to his current situation? Wouldn't that then be incorrect information no matter the definition of "verdict"? The point is to reflect the proper and up to date information in the correct manner. It shouldn't matter if it is a "verdict" or a "pardon". In either case he is no longer incarcerated and the article should reflect as much. Jmurphy042000 (talk) 03:04, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

The article does reflect the fact that he is no longer incarcerated. He was freed without serving his full sentence, and he had certain civil rights restored. He is still a convicted murderer. Greg Boyle (talk) 10:27, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Murder remains the proper term

A pardon is an act of grace by the individual granting it. It does not remove the underlying conviction. It merely relieves the recipient of the burden of the criminal attainder. In this case, it relieves Perry of all the terms of his sentence and restores his civil rights. As the Supreme Court previously stated "in dicta" granting of a pardon is an acknowledgement that the recipient is guilty and receipt of a pardon is likewise a confession by the recipient of his guilt. The term murder should be retained in all instances in which it occurs. Perry is still convicted of murder, just relieved of the criminal attainder for murder. Safiel (talk) 02:15, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

You're misinterpreting Burdick v. United States, or at least interpreting in a draconian way that is not recognized today in modern jurisprudence, and eliding the context of that decision being a petitioner who did not wish to accept a pardon. A pardon does not in itself imply guilt, but depending on context may leave the question of guilt hanging in the air where a not-guilty verdict may better resolves that question. Hurleybird (talk) 04:57, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Is there any precedent on Wikipedia of changing article titles or language within articles referring to a a crime - when the criminal was convicted by a jury of their peers - because the criminal was pardoned? Or is that only done in cases where a case was overturned as a wrongful conviction? Setting aside any debate about acceptance of guilt on Perry's part and Lorance v Commandant; is there precedent on Wikipedia of treating a pardon as overturning the decision of the jury, or is it treated as an exoneration? As far as I am aware, the conviction stands in cases of pardons. So, I ask: Is there precedent for such a change on Wikipedia, or is the demand that it be changed just coming from bad faith editors who are particularly interested in this particular convicted murderer due to the racial aspect of the murder? Crushable160 (talk) 00:54, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I am not aware of any such precedent, and it’s worth noting that bad faith editors were demanding that this not be called a murder long before the governor pardoned the murderer. Greg Boyle (talk) 03:12, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

It is still murder. Homicide of any kind is murder. Yes he is pardoned. Pardoned is not a verdict or exoneration. It means he was forgiven my the government and set free. Some civil liberties will be restored such as the right to vote, but a conviction will still remain on his record. However, he is now able to apply for a record expungment. In this situation what should be done? Once, and if, it is expunged anyway? The article should also be updated to reflect his current status. Jmurphy042000 (talk) 03:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

by* Jmurphy042000 (talk) 03:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry,but you are incorrect "A pardon is grounds for an expungement order. Tex. Code Crim. Proc. art. 55.01(a)(1)B)(i). According to state pardon board, “A person receiving a full pardon after a conviction is entitled to an expunction of all arrest records relating to the conviction. This requires the applicant to request an expunction from the appropriate state court.” See Texas Board of Pardons and Paroles, Effects of a full pardon, supra. After expungement, an individual may deny the fact of conviction, except that the individual must admit that he has a conviction that was expunged if questioned under oath at a criminal proceeding. Tex. Code Crim. Proc. art. 55.03(3). Full pardon does not relieve obligation to register as sex offender. Only a “special pardon” (a full pardon on the grounds of innocence) declares a person innocent of the crime and provides for complete freedom from legal implications of the conviction

References

Mention that Garret Foster was white?

Given the correlation with a Black Lives Matter protest, perhaps it matters to explicitly mention that Garret Foster had white skin. Ybllaw (talk) 08:05, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

If that is what reliable sources do, then we should do the same, agreed. Bondegezou (talk) 11:44, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Broken link

"Governor Abbott Pardons Daniel Perry Following Board Recommendation". gov.texas.gov. Retrieved 2024-05-16. has an extra - at the end of the link.

Should be https://gov.texas.gov/news/post/governor-abbott-pardons-daniel-perry-following-board-recommendation

Fixed. Bondegezou (talk) 11:44, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 17 May 2024

Murder of Garrett Foster → Killing of Garrett Foster – With Perry's pardon now official, it is best for the page to be moved to a different title. Per the pardon proclamation by Governor Abbott, it appears as though Perry is being pardoned because there is a belief he is not guilty of breaking the law. I disagree with assertions that this is merely a display of grace. It is true that grace is sometimes the reason for the issuance of a pardon, but it does not appear to be the case here. Keeping it as "Murder of Garrett Foster" is POV. Iamreallygoodatcheckers ^talk 22:44, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. A pardon doesn't erase the underlying conviction. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 03:01, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. A jury was shown all the evidence and unanimously found him guilty. No court identified a defect with his trial. His conviction was nullified by a political act, not a judicial finding.
  It is very much worth noting that the state of Texas has a procedure for issuing pardons based on actual innocence, and that procedure was inarguably not followed here. This pardon was issued under the “the governor has requested permission to issue a pardon” procedure.
  Abbott did not attend the trial and had no access to the trial record before he announced his intent to issue the pardon. He simply looked at the fact that the victim was a BLM protester and said “that doesn’t seem right to me.”
  The fact that the governor and a board of his political appointees agreed to free a murderer does not change the fact that this was fairly adjudicated as a murder by a unanimous jury and that the jury’s verdict was not overturned by an appellate court. Greg Boyle (talk) 03:09, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per Jessintime. - Amigao (talk) 05:43, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per Jessintime. Murder is murder, political pardons notwithstanding. And, as an aside to Greg's statement that A jury was shown all the evidence, I believe they weren't shown all the evidence, as a whole bunch of Perry's racist posts and comments were held back until after the trial. Although, yes, the jury found him guilty anyway. The OP's argument that it appears as though Perry is being pardoned because there is a belief he is not guilty of breaking the law, implies that it's more than just Gov. Abbott who holds this belief; I'm not persuaded, however. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 12:22, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  It is not our duty to pursuade you or any of us. It is to reflect the proper information WITHOUT BIAS. inserting your beliefs is not the correct way. That is not what shoukd be done.

  In addition, if you read the pardon, what you said is incorrect. The pardon is based off of information found by a independent investigation (board of parole) that information may have been suppressed by Garza. If that is truly and ultimately the case, the trial would not have been fair. This is called a Brady violation. If he had the opportunity and time to appeal this could have come to light and properly overturned the verdict. Jmurphy042000 (talk) 03:33, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  JMurphy, you seem to have misunderstood a few points. First, I'm not convinced that it's more than just Gov. Abbott who holds this belief [that Perry's innocent]. The OP's argument suggests otherwise, but I'm not convinced. I'm not saying anything about my conviction (har!) about his guilt or innocence, but about the OP's claim that there's some widespread "belief he is not guilty of breaking the law".

  Secondly, it's only only a Brady violation when exculpatory information is withheld from the defense. That's not what I'm talking about. In the actual case, the defendant had made numerous racist and aggressive comments about his intent to "kill a few people". These hardly need to have been shared with the defense, and they're a far cry from exculpatory. Indeed, I believe they would have got him convicted faster and "harder". In any case, I mention them (among other reasons) to underscore the appropriateness of the term "murder", beyond the lack of any reversal. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 10:49, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose He was released because of the pardon but it doesn't undo his conviction. Johndavies837 (talk) 18:30, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose As per my earlier thread, a pardon does not erase the underlying conviction or the crime itself. It is merely an act of grace that relieves the defendant of any criminal penalties. The juries factual finding of guilty still stands. Safiel (talk) 19:56, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  I think you are not understanding what he is asking. He is asking to clarify the title, not rewrite the wording or definition of the crime itself. If in the eyes of the law it is not considered murder, isn't it our duty as editors to reflect the proper information as covered WITHOUT BIAS OF ANY KIND. yes, I agree, taking a life is murder. No dispute there. However, there is now question as to what it is considered legally, that is what it should reflect. Not the moral side. That is not our duty, to impose morals or biases. It is to convey proper and unbiased information to all. So therefore, if the law says it was justified self defense (as per the pardon/statement by Greg abbot) should we also not reflect that?

  Or an alternative.

  Add a specific section detailing the pardon itself and what that means.

  We can not, and should not include personal biases, emotions, or feelings into editing. That's not our purpose. Jmurphy042000 (talk) 03:16, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  What happens if he is granted an expungment? He would no longer have a record. Then what? Just because he was convicted doesn't mean the article shouldn't be properly edited or clarified. That is purposely with holding proper information. It still needs to be conveyed in some manner. Otherwise it says hes a convicted murder who is no longer in jail.

  example: Why? Why is he no longer in jail? What happened? How did it happen? Who approved it. Why was it approved. What happens in the case of expungment?

  There are multiple factors at play here, not just hanging on the definition of a jury verdict.

  If you're not aware part of the basis for the pardon itself was due to supposedly suppressed information that could have justified self defense. If that is truly the case, there may ne more to come. Just because a jury renders a verdict does not mean it is the correct verdict.

  Example: Orenthal James Simpson verdict.

  I am also not here to debat politics or if what he did was wrong or justified. We shouldn't be focused on that. At all.

  The point is to convey accurate information no matter beliefs or political affiliations of any kind. I see that interjecting a lot. Jmurphy042000 (talk) 03:28, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, for now at least. According to the TEXAS BOARD OF PARDONS AND PAROLES website, a pardon does not automatically remove offenses from a person's criminal record. To get those records removed, a person has to get a separate expunction. A person who has been pardoned is entitled to such an expunction, but it is not an automatic process. [1] As far as I can tell, Perry has not applied for or received such an expunction. If Perry does get an expunction at some point, then there would be a basis for changing the title of the page. GranCavallo (talk) 13:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. A jury unanimously found him guilty of murder. A pardon is forgiveness for a crime, not a retrial acquittal. TheXuitts (talk) 20:48, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support, despite the verdict, it remains a matter of dispute whether it was a murder or not, that's why he was freed. "Killing" avoids taking a stance on that and maintains NPOV. Rambo Apocalypse (talk) 21:21, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Seems biased

It’s obvious. Change it 2600:6C54:4200:19D2:E998:21DE:E331:5D83 (talk) 00:03, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, this article is written horribly from one pov. No mention of the victim being white. The prosecution claim the was driving into the crowd is written as if it's not contested, etc. This is why people don't trust Wikipedia. 2603:8080:7400:E6C:EC0C:6D21:1C98:D7F8 (talk) 02:29, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Cry harder ku klux karen 2601:143:C500:1B10:40EC:F707:E122:CE08 (talk) 14:14, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Seriously? Is that what we are resorting to? Calling names? Just because someone wants the facts to be conveyed doesn't and shouldn't imply racism.

What did that comment get you? What was the point of that? We are supposed to remove that type of stuff from this. If you can't... you may be in the wrong place.

Please refrain from any ignorance of any kind. That included.

That can be misconstrued and misinterpreted on your part as well. Jmurphy042000 (talk) 03:39, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Who is contesting that he drove into the crowd? Perry didn’t contest that during the trial. In fact he said he did it accidentally because he was distracted by someone he was communicating with on his phone. 72.69.208.186 (talk) 21:20, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

The article currently states, "Perry originally stopped and honked his car horn at the protesters, but later ran a red light and drove his car into the crowd." Perry was turning right from 4th Street (heading west) onto Congress Avenue (heading south). If he stopped and then proceeded to turn right, he did not run a red light because making a right turn on red after stopping is legal in Texas. Videographers had been traveling with the marchers eastbound on 2nd Street as they turned north on Congress Avenue, taking up both sides of the broad two-way street just a few minutes prior to the shooting. The leading marchers were relatively thin as Perry approached the intersection, but as Perry turned right, he headed into a thicker aggregation of people walking against traffic, who clearly interpreted his action as aggressive. The tragic event unfolded from there. Congress Avenue was not closed by the police as you can see marchers passing by a car that was northbound on Congress. Saying that Perry "ran a red light" is an inaccurate judgment, so I agree that there is an NPOV problem with the article as it currently stands.A.T.S. in Texas (talk) 23:49, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Why are we debating the definition of murder and including our own personal beliefs?

that is not our job. That is not our purpose.

"The goal of a Wikipedia article is to create a comprehensive and neutrally written summary of existing mainstream knowledge about a topic. Editors are encouraged to be bold in editing in a fair and accurate manner with a straightforward, just-the-facts style."

Please remember why Wikipedia exists and what our job is. Jmurphy042000 (talk) 03:36, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Calling it a murder is in keeping with that goal. Greg Boyle (talk) 10:29, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

A refresher on how we should be editing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view Jmurphy042000 (talk) 03:45, 19 May 2024 (UTC)