Talk:Landmark Worldwide

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Summary of Current State of Play

Once again this discussion has grown extensively, and once again there has been disappointingly little progress towards consensus.

I have archived the page, and kept the 'Summary' section, which I still hope will provide a basis for an improved article.

I have also copied over the currently active discussion from the last few days to preserve continuity. DaveApter 14:19, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Once again this talk page has got over-long, so I have archived it. Looking through the archived pages, it’s pretty clear that the discussion has gone round in circles with the same points being made over and over again, and more time being spent on re-iterating editors’ own viewpoints than seriously working towards a consensus on the structure of the article.

At present the article is a total mess, as a result of the POV-pushing and edit-warring over the last seven months. It is also much longer than it should be.

My request is that we work together to establish a consensus on this page regarding a desirable structure for the article, and then find acceptable references to build the page in that form.

I propose that an acceptable encyclopedia article on Landmark Education would provide readers with informative content regarding:

1) Broadly what it is about: what it offers and how it delivers it; why people do the courses, and what they get from them.

2) A summary of the ‘controversies’ surrounding the operation: what are the conflicting opinions on the various areas of debate, who hold these opinions, and what is the supporting evidence.

Does anyone disagree with this as a satisfactory ‘big-picture’ overview of what the article should deal with? (Please start the discussion in a new section below to preserve the flow of this overview paragraph – thanks).

My suggestions for how these areas could be dealt with are:

What is it about?

This section of the article should address the following questions:

• What issues do Landmark courses deal with?
• What is the methodology?
• What results do participants report?
• How does it differ from conventional academic philosophy?

(again - please discuss below).

Why the controversies, and what are they about?

This section as it stands is way over-large and violates the WP:NPOV policy by giving undue weight to minority views, and by reporting opinions as though they were facts.

The size of the "controversies" section reflects the degree of controversy surrounding almost everything to do with Landmark Education. Attempting to corral the disputes into one section limits the unfolding of the neutral point of view in the article as a whole. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

A “controversy” by its nature is a matter of conflicting opinions.

Or simply differing opinions or simply different assemblages of data. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

What are the disputed matters? I’d say they are:

• Does it really produce worthwhile results?
• Is it sometimes harmful?
• Is it a rip-off, or a money making scam?

Plus: how Landmark Education came into existence, what its content consists/consisted of, how one can characterize the org, whether one can credit its statements, etc. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The concerns over the Assisting Programs would be quite properly discussed under the latter two headings.

The fact that some commentators have applied adjectives such as “cult” and “brainwashing” is not in itself informative, unless we know what they mean by the words, and what evidence they draw on to justify the description.

It would help to report nouns such as "cult" and "brainwashing", rather than adjectives. I would welcome a full discussion of how each commentator may use such words: and assemble such evidence: possibly in a series of associated articles. In the absence of such detailed evidence, we can continue basically reporting that commentators have used such designations, relying on standard usage of language to precisify/obscure each case. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that the majority of those expressing critical opinions on Landmark Education actually know very little about it, and quite disproportionate weight is given to uninformed speculation and hearsay. DaveApter 11:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

It may seem that way to you, but the presumption of good faith inherent in Wikipedia-editing prevents you from making unprovable claims in this arena. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry - I thought the advice to "assume good faith" referred to fellow wikipedians with whom we were debating, not to everyone on the planet! And actually I didn't think I was accusing anyone of "bad faith" anyway - my impression is that the overwhelming majority of critics make it quite clear that they have never observed or participated in any of Landmark's programs or courses.DaveApter 11:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The assumption of good faith applies indeed to Wikipedians, and thus applies as we edit here. You accused no-one of bad faith: I simply pointed out that fellow-Wikipedians should respect the work of editors representing the majority (broadly-speaking, skeptical) view here. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Caltechdoc 18:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC): I am a relatively new editor and am fascinated by the controversy generated by the Landmark Education article. As a research scientist interested in using Wikipedia as a resource, it is a bit disconcerting that so much controversy shows up around some topics. It takes only a moment of analysis to see that one particular editor, "Smee", has an axe to grind, and dedicates a fair amount of his/her day to grinding it. The questions about Landmark Education are valid - but the data is obscured by this particular editor. I have myself taken a number of "growth programs" and done a degree of research into them. The Landmark programs are clearly among the best by several measures - size of operations, number of participants, and numerous reports by participants of positive results, as well a variety of scholarly research papers completed (I have read several, from USC and from Harvard).

Please provide references for the "variety of scholarly research papers completed ... from USC and from Harvard". -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Landmark is clearly not a cult, does not use brainwashing, and is a fine program that focuses on making a difference in people's lives. My sense is that the rate of negative outcomes is low, likely commensurate with the rate in any academic program (Caltech for example has a noticible rate of psychological trauma among its students - does this make Caltech a dangerous cult, or a danger to society? Caltech is clearly one of the finest scientific institutions on the planet.)

My sense is that if "Smee" is not allowed to alter the Landmark Education site for some period, the controversy would settle and we would converge on a balanced and useful article.

Intro Paragraph

Lets- I quote from WP:LEAD:

When writing a lead section about ideas and concepts (such as "truth"), it can be helpful to introduce the topic as follows:

1. Context - describing the category or field in which the idea belongs. 2. Characterization - what the term refers to as used in the given context. 3. Explanation - deeper meaning and background. 4. Compare and contrast - how it relates to other topics, if appropriate.

5. Criticism - include criticism if there has been significant, notable criticism.

It also states that for larger articles (30,000 words plus) the length should be a maximum of 3 to 4 paragraphs. The first part of the current intor describes what we are talking about, the second describes some history and its predecessors, the third explains what it does and how that fits with some of its other sibling/subsidiary entities, and the fourth addresses criticisms.

There is a large contingent of us (see above discussions) that think the intro is already overly leaning towards talking about the far past too much and think MOST of the criticism stuff is pretty non-notable and minority POV driven. The fact is this intro was gotten to voer weeks and weeks of patient effort by editors to keep it balanced. I think we should move very carefully to not disturb that. WIkipedia does say be bold but I suspect others will be bold back and that leads to edit wars. Lets take the consensus route.Alex Jackl 04:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

• You make some intriguing points. I would like to hear what User:Tazmaniacs has to say about all this... Thanks. Smee 04:42, 18 March 2007 (UTC).

The minority viewpoint that criticism of Landmark Education comes from a minority does receive a lot of air-play... -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I understand your opinion but this is a weasel-worded statement. Say what you mean: Do you mean to imply it is not a minority viewpoint? Please don't spin and hide behind sarcasm and stick to improving the article! Thank you!

I merely point out a minority (but vocal) viewpoint: that criticism of Landmark Education comes from a minority. That implies that the article should evolve to represent majority views better. -- Which of my words do you regard as weaselly spin? -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

NPOV rationale for minor changes to the Labor stuff

There are two things: 1. There is a POV statement that the courts have "sometimes sided" with Landmark. That is a misleading statement - in NO case have the courts gone against Landmark with regard to the cult stuff. It is one of the reasons many editors consider this to be non-notable. Therefore I think this whole section needs to be radically reduced but as a stop gap at least acknowledging that the courts have never ruled AGAINST Landmark will hold that space. 2. The DOL has not ruled on anything. You can check court records and the DOL website. It is an investigator, an employee, that made whatever conclusions they made and then took no further action and no legal proceedings resulted. This is just a fix of an obvious misdirection in the text (intentional or otherwise).

These are I think the minorest changes to make this slightly less skewed. Please let me know if there is any question about this. Thanks! Alex Jackl 01:56, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• Or invariably remove the legal wording stuff from those sections and keep it as a simple reference to the article Landmark Education litigation ... Smee 02:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC).
  • This is factually inaccurate and WP:OR. We cannot be certain that we have all of the cases here. Thanks. Smee 02:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

• • • What do you mean "factually inaccurate"? What evidence do you have for that? You have done a LOT of research Smee on Landmark's litigation - if you can't find it, you don't want to bring it up. This is classic unethical debating tactics. "Well you can't prove it is not , so let's imply that it is". No - how about let's not mention it at all! That is more in keeping with an encyclopedia. You are breaking WP:OR all the time - none of this stuff is notable but you are weaving a story together by emphasizing small non-notable pieces and making them seem more than they are. This labor thing is a PERFECT example- two investigations in 16 years -both of which ended up in no action (With regard to volunteers which is what this is about- there was some minor clean up Landmark had to do regarding tracking two employee's hours and stuff like that). Can you say so non-notable as to put one to sleep - give me a break!

The DOL has made NO NADA NIENTE rulings against Landmark Education - there has been no court cases, legal action, or evidence of wrong doing. You have NO proof. It is all in your imagination. The two action reports make some recommendations and than are labeled as "NO Further Action". Case closed. This is such a waste of our precious time even to talk about this. I suggesting we remove the Labor dispute section entirely or at least reduce it to a paragraph befitting its notability. I think Smee and I have made our positions clear on this. Other editors? Alex Jackl 02:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• I request that you please STOP your violations of WP:NPA. Thanks. Comment on content not on contributors. Thanks. Smee 03:49, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

• I request that you stop trying to turn any strongly worded challenge of your stance into a personal attack. I request you stop misusing policies as an accusatory weapon against people in debates. I DO apologize if I offended you - CERTAINLY not my intent. However I do have strong objections and strong concerns about some of the content we are talking about- which I am not even sure YOU put in. I have not changed it since the last reversion and I have not accused you of any wrong-doing- which by the way you do with some regularity which, by the way, IS a breach of WP:NPA. This is not about you- this about the content and having an article that Wikipedia would be proud of. We aren't there yet with this article, and we have a ways to go. That is why I have asked for other editors to chime in and I will step back a little bit. I request you do the same. We have managed compromise in a civil fashion before I am confident we can do it again. Alex Jackl 05:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep your comments to content, not contributors, and you'll do just fine. Thanks. Smee 05:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

Too many citations to unreliable Corporate Web site

• Landmark Education's Web site is designed to be a publicity advertisement for their coursework, pure and simple. As per the tag, as many citations as possible to Landmark Education's for-profit Corporate Web site should be removed and replace with more reputable and reliable secondary sourced citations, especially in the case where Landmark is excerpting portions of data and not giving the whole picture about academic studies and the like. Thanks. Smee 19:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

Wow! This is really over the top. Ummm.. this is an article about a corporation. The primary source of information IS the corporate website. It should be checked and should be treated knowing it is the corporation talking about itself, but you are not clear on the policies. Checkout any three corporate web pages and you will find NUMEROUS references to the corporate website. Frankly, it doesn't even count as self-publishing. Alex Jackl 06:15, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Compare usage of exact same template in similar article Scientology. Smee 06:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

I do not watch the Scientology site and am not that interested in 20th century religions. How about we check out all the other business es using corporate sites. 1. It is not publicity advertisement only- it is a working site. One can look up courses, access services, even register. 2. It doesn't matter it is the official site of the corporation. It acts as the web presence for that corporate entity. If you decide to put it on Scientology, go ahead. I don't know what the people tracking that site will say or have said or even it should be there - it might. I just don't know. What I do know is that template clearly doesn't belong here. What I also find annoying is sneaking little changes in like the charter "claims" vs. "states" which was gone over and consensus was reached. *shrug* I am going to try to move on again but I was pulled in by the inappropriate template. Alex Jackl 06:35, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

It is not publicity advertisement only- it is a working site. This is simply untrue. The purpose of the site is to convince more people to take the coursework, thus more money for the for-profit, privately owned corporation, thus it is blatant advertising, which is not allowed on Wikipedia, especially when citing research and alleged statistics. Thanks. Smee 06:40, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

I got your unsupported opinion about that. I don't have a problem with your thinking that, just don't pass it off as fact. Compare the Landmark Website to some comparative web sites and you will see that it is more operational than most, and has lots of information for clients of the organization. Shocking given that it is the OFFICIAL web site of the organization. And- good god- a for-profit company has marketing material on its website! I have NEVER seen that before! Now THAT is notable. Puh-leese! (just for the record and humor-impaired that was sarcasm, intended to underline how much the Landmark website is mis-characterized here. ) Alex Jackl 06:57, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• Opinion vs. Fact, good. What is the main purpose of the Web site, and in fact of the company? To create as much profit for the owners, whoever they are, as possible. Thus the Web site would be designed to do this. Thus it is not a reputable and certainly not a neutral source for anything. Thanks. Smee 07:00, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

This is like a train wreck- I keep having to watch even though I know I shouldn't. Just so were clear according to your logic EVERY website except those put up by non-profit agencies are NOT REPUTABLE and not a NEUTRAL SOURCE? I just wanted you to be clear about the logical hole you are hurtling towards. Now- by the way - I DO AGREE about the "neutral source" bit. LE's website is not neutral about LE. Nor does it pretend to be. If there were some controversial issue you wouldn't want to rely solely on LE's stance on the matter (though that would be relevant and of interest as per Wikipedia policy) anymore than you would want to trust a source like one of Rick Ross' web of websites on the matter given his legal and obvious POV against Landmark. Both are not neutral though Landmark is a better source say about what its values are, for instance.

An example of a place where this shows up is the reference to the charter in the beginning of the article. You keep insisting on changing the verb associated to the charter to "claims". As in, the charter "claims". You clearly don't understand what a corporate chater is. A chart is a declaration- like the Declaration of INdependance. It states as a declaration what it stands for. Landmark doesn't "claim " that - it is a statement- a declaration. Yet you insist on keep changing it back to "claims". Why? I can't help but think you are trying to wage a PR war to make LE look a particular way. I am not accusing- I am merely stating what seems obvious and asking the question: What's the problem here? Alex Jackl 07:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

If you continue to violate the policy of WP:NPA - comment on content, not contributors, we are not going to get anywhere here. Thanks. Smee 07:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

Any charter can claim or state anything. That doesn't necessarily make something valid outside that scope. To state that a charter "claims" or "states' or "professes" provides a more accurate and encyclopedic account of such matters. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Personally I agree that fewer corporate links would be preferable - but I also think that the article ought to have more descriptive content on what the courses are about and how they work (see below). DaveApter 14:27, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• Please discuss changes on talk page instead of mass reverting my work. In addition to editing I added much material w/ sourced citations. Thanks. Smee 18:00, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

I am more than happy to discuss matters here, and have been making an honest effort to get a constructive discussion going with a view to reaching a consensus on an article structure that will be acceptable to editors with widely differing viewpoints. It seems to me that you simply take rhetorical standpoints or simply ignore arguments which do not fit your POV, rather than engaging in the discussion. You are also very ready to accuse other editors of personal attacks. The edits you added and which have been reverted, have almost all been discussed on this page ad nauseam.

For example, you reverted AJackl's correction of the neutral (and accurate) "states" with the spun weasel word "claims" (against WP:NPOV) without even bothering to answer the point he made in the paragraph above. DaveApter 18:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• No, I have restored this change by AJackl, as requested. Please keep your comments to content, not contributors, thanks. I am refraining from commenting on what I would perceive as your obvious bias, which I would imagine you could see would appear to others on the other side. I have not done this, please do keep your comments to content. Thanks. Smee 18:48, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

Specific suggestions for improving the article

The article is far too long, much of the material is repetitive, and extensive coverage is devoted to minority opinions, and issues of only very marginal significance are expounded at great length. There is frequent obfuscation between matters of opinion and matters of fact. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter (talk • contribs).(nb this was not an unsigned comment, it was the start of an extended section signed by me at the end - and the same goes for all the spurious 'unsigned' flags which were inserted by user:Smee in the next dozen or so paragraphs - DaveApter 08:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC))

If you find the article too long, fork. If you suspect minority opinions, state your evidence for their minority status. If you detect opinions, label them as such. No need for complaints on the talk-page. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

• The frequent changes to this article have also repeatedly violated the "Neutral Point of View" policy of Wikipedia. Clearly, an agenda is being forwarded in the process. Wikipedia is not an editorial page. Simplyfabulous 15:38, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

After reviewing several other entries about various corporations, I believe this article could benefit from a standard format, and removing a lot of the "deadwood". The format that appears regularly, and appears to work well, is something like this:

• introduction, basically what the company does.
• how they do what they do, their particular market segment or products, etc
• more detail, sometimes a history, or new products
• evaluation of the company from outside sources, controversies, court cases or judgments.

Some examples you can see of this format in good use are Starbucks, [[ IBM]], H & R Block, DeVry University, and Best Buy.

Landmark Education has a corporate aspect, as discussed. It also has aspects involving belief and practice and influence: in these respects the article structure might more closely and usefully resemble articles on religions. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually there is no proscribed practice and is not a belief system. So what is your point? Alex Jackl 15:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Practices do not need proscription (or prescription); beliefs do not always come in neat and self-consistent systems. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The principal of undue weight to controversies has been severely violated in this article. When printed out, fully a third of the pages deal with investigations that ended with nothing found and no charges, lawsuits that were withdrawn, and then a range of controversies. I suggest this range of topics be reduced to maybe 5%, 10% tops, as this would represent more than the actual amount of this company's customers and interactions that could possibly be controversial.

Actual stuff: perhaps, but Landmark Education has a history and Wikipedians have striven to reflect that history in all relevant detail. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

IBM has a history as well but that isn't portrayed this way. This is an encyclopedia not a historical treatise on company histories. The key in what you said is "all relevant detail". Wikipedia is not a link farm nor is it a repository of all data on a subject.

Most things have histories. If Wikipedia skimps on the history of IBM, say, or Zoroastrianism, this merely suggests that editors' interests may tend towards the current in some fields -- so far. Facts on history -- even company history -- have a place in Wikipedia, "in all relevant detail". -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Addressing "in all relevant detail" is going to be subjective. We need to directly address undue weight given to the affor metioned items. This is significant because an editor smeewith a very clear POV had been previously editing on this article up to 20 hours a day. If you look back over the various archived talk pages or edit history, you can see the enormous impact of this person POV on the article. Triplejumper 19:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Addressing "in all relevant detail" has long raised issues of subjectivity. If you happen to detect undue weight, I suggest providing balancing material of similar merit to Smee's impeccable contributions. -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

For any that feel that more space is needed to illustrate an egregious wrong, I suggest employing the Wiki principal of letting the facts speak for themselves. An excellent example of this is the "Criticism" section of Best Buys entry [1], which by it's sheer conciseness hits you right between the eyes.

While such an approach might well cover any individual egregious wrong, it might not cater so well for systemic patterns of criticism. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe it will.Alex Jackl 15:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Patterns require bodies of data to establish and prove them, though. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

We are getting into Wikilawyering here. We have to look at specific examples and see how notable they are and whether they would be mentioned for other companies and under what circumstances they would be mentioned. Sm1969 05:27, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Louislouislewee 04:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I took some time to look back over the history of the article, the version in early May 2006 appeared to be generally balanced in viewpoint and encylopedic in tone and had been stable for many months. At that point there seemed to be a concerted campaign to introduce extensive coverage of negative propaganda and to remove significant informative sections and the whole thing has suffered from an extended edit war over the last 9 months. Perhaps the version of that time would make a better starting point than the present one?Mvemkr 23:26, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure. This article took so much damage from the edit warring and the POV editing form minority-view editors that it is tempting to take such an extreme route but as I look around there seems- for the first time in a long, long time a dialog about content and not just POV warring. It is GREAT! I have to admit I am concerned about maintaining this atmosphere if a sock-puppet of the editor in question or perhaps one of his allies comes back and tries to hijack the article again. But, welcome to Wikipedia, right? I am excited by what appears to be an influx of reasonable editors. I think a lot of willing editors to this article where cared away by the edit warring. I really hope my defense of the article did not contribute to any of that! All that rambling aside I believe we should- even though he and I don't always agree- follow DaveApter's path of discussing each section of the article in its own lights and then removing or changing as appropriate and we can be informed by past and more balanced versions of the article. Does this make sense to the other editors, or is their a consensus that we should restore an older version? I don't care so long as the balance and NPOV of the article remains intact I wholly will go with the consensus. Alex Jackl 13:43, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Methodology

More information than the single paragraph would be useful.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter (talk • contribs).(It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 08:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC))

• Provided this information comes from sources other than Landmark's own publicity advertising department, yes. Smee 18:35, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

• Where else would you get the specific methodolgy other than from the company that provides it? Simplyfabulous 15:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• This section should be developed further. It is relevant to the subject of the article Triplejumper 21:45, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Courses

The exhaustive list of course titles is not particularly informative. More helpful would be to have summarised headings for the various categories of courses offered, followed by a brief descriptive paragraph.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter (talk • contribs).(It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 08:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC))

• I support this. Smee 18:31, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

I agree, the full list is not very informative. Timb66 00:53, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Labor Practices

I would agree that the surprising fact that significant numbers of individuals give their time to work in a for-profit corporation is worthy of some discussion, but the present treatment is an attempt to propagate and exaggerate marginal and uninformed opinions on the issue.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter (talk • contribs).(It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 08:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC))

1. There is no need to devote pages of discussion to the DoL investigations. It is neither unusual or noteworthy that a corporation of this size should have 2 or 3 investigations over a 16 year period, and the fact that they concluded that no action was to be taken makes the matter even less significant. At least one of the investigations was in response to a delibarately mischievous complaint by a detractor of the company who had never participated in any of their courses, much less ever been a volunteer worker.

... by the best and most effective kind of whistle-blower, then? -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand - how is a self-declared opponent of Landmark with no experience of volunteering who acts as an agent provocateur be "the best and most effective kind of whistle-blower"? DaveApter 12:32, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Independent un-biased and fresh insights often come from the outside. Fixation on participation and experience may narrow viewpoints. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

2. The only people who assist are those who choose to do so, and this represents a small proportion of the total number of LE’s customers (around 1% in any given year).

3. Those who assist overwhelmingly report satisfaction with the experience, both in terms of the benefits of the training they receive and can apply to other areas of life, and in terms of the satisfaction of contributing to the course participants.

I'd like to see substantiation for this claim. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

It's easy to find dozens of personal accounts, eg this one at http://members.tripod.com/delightworks/index.html:

Personally, I get a lot out of assisting at Landmark courses. It's great to see people gaining whole new areas of fulfillment in their lives where they had been totally resigned that things couldn't be different.... I am very interested in doing things that make a positive difference in the world. When I first did the Landmark Forum, I wondered how much I could trust the motivation of the company and staff. Through being around these people I came to realize that their commitment is impeccable. Landmark is a group of people who have invented a company where they can fully express themselves by contributing to others.'

DaveApter 12:32, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Personal accounts do not of themselves provide substantiation of the existence of any benefits. Personal accounts merely mire us in a morass of hearsay -- un-useful as reliable sources. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

4. Nobody is profiting from the work of the volunteers (apart of course from the customers who get very cheap courses): the company’s shareholders are all employess of the company who pay themselves no dividends and receive only their modest salaries for the work done.

The alleged lack of a profit makes exploitation morally acceptable? -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Where do you get the idea that anyone is being "exploited"? Lots of people do things freely for the benefit of others, and the world would be a sorry place if they didn't. Do you say that people doing voluntary work for - say - the Boy Scouts are being "exploited"? The relevance of this comment is that it 'is unusual for the vehicle of the work to be a (technically) 'for-profit' rather than a 'non-profit'.

The investigations of the Labor Inspectorate in France, followed by the closing of Landmark Education operations there, might for example, suggests substance behind the anecdotes of people who feel exploited. Do Boy Scout volunteers come under ever-increasing pressure to volunteer more and more? -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

This is totally confusing. Please say what you are refering to when you say: "Ever increasing pressureto volunteer more and more". Triplejumper 19:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

(btw, please try to avoid inserting your comments between my text and my signature, as this makes the conversation harder to follow. Thanks) DaveApter 12:32, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Indentation can help in such situations. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• All of these claims above are unsubstantiated. It is' highly unusual for a small for-profit, privately owned company to undergo this many investigations from the United States Federal Department of Labor. And we truly have no idea how many shares are owned by which individuals, and therefore cannot know exactly how much these shareholders are profiting off of these unpaid laborers. Smee 18:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

• • I don't understand what you mean by unsubstantiated - all those assertions are simply factual: we do know the number of shareholders because it is an employee-owned company, so it will be equal to the number of employees. This is in any case irrelevant because they do not "profit" from the work of the assistants, because any surplus is used to make the courses more widely available. And what data do you have for the assessment that it is "highly unusual" for a company with 50 offices to have 3 DoL investigations over a 16 year period? I have no basis for comparison, but it strikes me as a very small number and a totally unremarkable fact. DaveApter 08:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

• A company that has offices on over 20 countries can hardly be called small. I agree with Dave Apter that the department of labor investigation is misleading. 2 or 3 investigations with no judgment pased over a 16 year period is not noteworthy. Triplejumper 19:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • It is unusual because most companies that bring in this level of revenue are not subjected to this level of scrutiny by the Department of Labor - at least 3 investigations in the United States, and 2 in France - that is highly unusual. Smee 03:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC).
    • It just doesn't seem significant when there are no judgments. I will defer to the consensus. Triplejumper 21:52, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Judgements provide a messy last resort. Much legal machination goes into resolving issues before they reach a formal court. Should Wikipedia acknowledge such goings on? If not, why not? -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
      • I agree with TriplejumperMvemkr 23:32, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Ditto. There seems to be overwhelming consensus that this is non-notable and should never even made it into the article. This is a single-editor issue who had some particular axe to grind. It should be eliminated. Alex Jackl 13:34, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Do the alleged deficiencies of the DoL issues apply equally to the parallel situations in France? -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Request to Have Labor Dispute Removed

I am proposing that the entire labor dispute section be removed as non-notable spin representing a minority view. There seems to be agreement by all the editors but the one editor with the aforementioned minority view. Other editors? Alex Jackl 19:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• I second this proposal on the for the reasons I mentioned above.Triplejumper 20:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
• I also agree that this section should be removed as not notable.Mvemkr 21:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
• I await evidence that the section on labor represents a minority view. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

• I recommend this section be deleted. Simplyfabulous 21:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} I have unprotected the page. CMummert · talk 02:34, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

• I concur that this section should be removed - it appears to be a minority view. Caltechdoc 23:43, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

• I continue to await evidence that the section on labor (reproduced below (for the purposes of facilitating discussion) in the form before excision) represents "a minority view" -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
  • I think it is common sense. 2 investigations over the course 16 years with no judgments passed doesn't merit multiple paragraphs in this article. Triplejumper 19:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
    • "Common sense" does not addres the requirement for evidence. Which two investigations would you prefer to omit? How can one detect patterns without thorough evidence? -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

== Labor investigations == === United States of America === Summaries of two investigations by the [[United States Department of Labor]] into Landmark Education's labor practices appear below. The first investigation, which took place in [[Colorado]] in [[1994]], noted violations in respect of a lack of records kept on hours worked by employees. The "Compliance Action report" section of the case checked "No" for "Further Action on This Case". An analysis in the "Narrative report" examines arguments as to whether to classify the employees as "volunteers". The final "disposition" of the case and recommendations of the wage and hour investigator remain unknown, the authorities having redacted these details{{Fact|date=March 2007}} from the public version of the narrative report.<ref name="coloradoviolations"> [http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark233.pdf Labor Investigation], [[Colorado]], [[1994]]-[[1996]], [[United States Department of Labor]] Compliance Action Report. </ref> The second investigation, which originated in [[Texas]] in [[2003]], found violations of minimum-wage regulations (due to volunteer assistants not receiving any wages for hours worked), overtime violations (due to the same issue), and again a record-keeping violation. The "disposition" of the Texas case resulted in a transfer of the case to the District Director of the corporate office. Again, the authorities redacted the final recommendation of the wage-and-hour investigator from the public version of the report. See below for more details. ==== Colorado investigation (1994-1996) ==== A [[United States Department of Labor]] investigation into Landmark Education's labor practices took place in [[Colorado]], between January [[1994]] to [[1996]]. The initial complaint arose out of an intent to classify volunteers as employees, subject to the Fair Labor Standards act.<ref name="coloradoviolations" />. In the official Compliance Action Report the wage and hourly investigator noted: <blockquote> The strongest supporting argument for the volunteer position appears, as borne out by the interviews almost exclusively, that none of the assistants have been promised or expect compensation but work solely for their personal purpose works in activities carried on by Subject [Landmark Education] for both their pleasure or profit.<ref name="coloradoviolations" /> </blockquote> The investigator continued to state that: <blockquote> On the other hand, the strongest supporting argument for finding that the assistants are employees was ironically cited by outside counsel in ''Marshall v. Baptist Hospital'' which found that, if the assistants can be considered trainees, they displace regular employees that they would otherwise have to hire. Subject weakly counters that this, in fact, is not the case since the assistants are under direction by staff. Perhaps more importantly, the assistant activities is a common industry practice. In so stating, it should be noted that Subject is a for profit, and not a non-profit, enterprise.<ref name="coloradoviolations" /> </blockquote> The investigator's conclusion noted that "No records are kept of any hours worked by any employees." A [[1998]] article in ''[[Metro, Silicon Valley's Weekly Newspaper]]'' entitled: [http://www.metroactive.com/landmark/landmark1-9827.html "The est of Friends"] reported on labor investigations into Landmark Education's volunteers. At that time, the Department of Labor designated Landmark Education's volunteers as employees subject to the [[Fair Labor Standards Act]].{{Fact|date=February 2007}} According to the ''Metroactive'' article the Department of Labor later "dropped the issue" after Landmark Education cited its "volunteers' choice in the matter".<ref> [http://www.metroactive.com/landmark/landmark1-9827.html The est of Friends], ''Metroactive Features'', July 9-15, 1998<br> <blockquote> A case study by Harvard Business School reports that nationwide, 7,500 volunteers lend their time and services to Landmark. The corporation only pays 451 people, and only a tenth of them are Forum leaders. But here at the Forum, we are told, anything is possible. So devotees keep enrolling in courses, keep volunteering to prove their "commitment." I wonder what kind of racket the Department of Labor was running when it investigated Landmark and determined its volunteers were employees subject to the provisions of the Fair Labor Standards Act. Who's heard of volunteers for a for-profit? In the end the Department of Labor dropped the issue, leaving Landmark trumpeting about its volunteers' choice in the matter. </blockquote> </ref>. ==== Texas investigation (2003-2006) ==== The United States Federal Department of Labor investigated Landmark Education's labor practices in [[Texas]], from [[February 1]], [[2003]] to [[June 26]], [[2006]]. In the investigation, the Department of Labor found a "minimum wage violation" with regard to "Volunteer (assistants)" and noted that "Volunteers (Assistants) are not paid any wages for hours worked while performing the major duties of the firm".<ref name="texasviolations"> [http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark234.pdf Labor Investigation], [[United States Department of Labor]], [[Texas]], [[February 1]], [[2003]] to [[June 26]], [[2006]].</ref> The Department commented: <blockquote> The assistants displace regular employees that would have to be hired. The employer could not operate with the 2-3 full-time employees per site... Interviews reveal that the employees [sic] are taking payments, registering clients, billing, training, recruiting, setting up locations, cleaning, and other duties that would have to be performed by staff if the assistants did not perform them.<ref name="texasviolations" /> </blockquote> (Landmark Education regards such assistants as volunteers, not as employees: "The firm denies that the assistants/volunteers are employees."<ref name="texasviolations" /> ) In both the Colorado and the Texas cases, as the sources cited above reveal, the Department of Labor ruled "No violations" with regard to certain sections of the law but not with regard to others. As the sources cited above also reveal, in the Colorado case the Department cited Landmark Education for not keeping records for any hours worked by employees. In the Texas investigation, the Department cited violations: *''"Minimum wage violation found. Volunteers (Assistants) are not paid any wages for hours worked while performing the major duties of the firm."''<ref name="texasviolations" /> *''"An overtime violation resulting from the firm not paying the additional half time to non-exempt salaried employees."''<ref name="texasviolations" /> *''"A record keeping violation resulted from the firm not keeping a record of hours worked for non-exempt salaried employees, and for assistants that are actually employees."''<ref name="texasviolations" /> === France === In [[1994]], the French Department of Labor investigated Landmark Education's labor practices.<ref> ''[[Voyage to the Land of the New Gurus]]'', [[May 24]], [[2004]], [[France 3]], ''[[Pieces a Conviction]]''.<br> <blockquote> Volunteers working in the headquarters of a commercial company, is it legal? Officers from General Information, in this confidential note about Landmark, were worried about undeclared associates in violation of the Labor Code. The document dates from 1994, so the situation is not new. </blockquote> </ref> The matter received mention in a [[May 24]], [[2004]] broadcast of the [[investigative report]] ("[[Voyage au pays des nouveaux gourous|Voyage to the land of the new gurus]]") on [[France 3]] [[television network]]'s show ''[[Pièces à conviction]]''; which highlighted (amongst other issues) the matter of volunteer labor. In June [[2004]], the French labor agency (''L’Inspection du Travail'') investigated labor practices regarding "volunteer workers". Shortly thereafter, Landmark Education officially ended its operations in France.<ref name="Nouvel"> [http://www.prevensectes.com/rev0505.htm#19d "At home with the gurus in neckties."], ''[[Nouvel Observateur]]'' (French newspaper), [[May 19]], [[2005]], by Marie Lemonnier.<br>Labor inspectors showed up at Landmark offices, noted the exploitation of volunteers, and made a report of undeclared employment. The action accelerated; the vise was tightened. </ref> It remains unclear what role the investigation played in the official ending of Landmark Education operations in France.<ref> [http://www.prevensectes.com/rev0505.htm#19d A short timeline.] {{fr icon}} </ref>

Controversies

This section is almost entirely comprised of over-long treatments of minority opinions promoted by ill-informed or deliberately malicious commentators. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter (talk • contribs). (It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 08:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC))

• This is POV. The citations all are sourced to reputable material/individuals. Please do not attack nor classify these sources in this manner. Thanks. Smee 18:33, 20 March 2007 (UTC).
  • Whether or not the sources you cite meet wikipedia's criteria is a legitimate an important matter to discuss. Many of the ones you use are opinion pieces, or highly partisan.DaveApter 08:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• RE: unsigned, I was merely clarifying who had said what for other readers, and did not want to put your actual name there. Please do not read into things. What you resist, persists. Thanks. Smee 18:53, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

The underlying issue here is compliance with the undue weight provision in the Neutral Point of View policy:

NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all (by example, the article on the Earth only very briefly refers to the Flat Earth theory, a view of a distinct minority). We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view, and views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties. This applies not only to article text, but to images, external links, categories, and all other material as well. Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.

Many of the critical sources are partisan, many have no expertise in the subject, many of them have little if any actual knowledge of Landmark's procedures, many of them are self-interested and self-promotional, and numerically they insignificant in relation to the numbers of reputable commentators who are of the opposing view. I urge everyone to work constructively towards a consensus on this page. DaveApter 14:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• Wikipedia's policy requires a Neutral Point of View" and no original research or poorly substantiated references. The length of this article and the content of the sections is a testament to violations of all 3 of these policies. Wikipedia is not a "soapbox", but rather a "People's Open-Sourced Encyclopedia". I request this article and the editors return to managing the page from those policies, standards and ideals. Simplyfabulous 15:38, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the NPOV principal of undue weight. As I wrote above, when I printed out the article, it consumed 24 pages. Pages 11-19 (8 pages, or one-third) were about investigations that ended with nothing found wrong, lawsuits that were later withdrawn, or a range of amazing controversies. Not only should this entire category be cut down to it's proper proportion (say, 5-10% of total), but the NPOV principal of letting the facts speak for themselves operate as it should.

I would also suggest that the editors, and particularly Smee, refrain from the nasty back-and-forth editing over minor points. For an example of a controversy that is being worked through in a collegial manner, I can recommend something I've been working on behind the scenes trying to resolve: Pacific Crest Trail. This is a case where a physical fact (the height of a mountain pass), not an opinion, cannot be agreed to. However, the editors are willing to accept a reasonable middle ground for now, and we are working to find a way to get a more accurate answer published. Louislouislewee 05:06, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

The "cult" issue

This merits at most a couple of sentences. There is much discussion and accusation on bulletin boards etc, but almost no identifiable informed authoritative figures have made this claim. On the other hand many eminent psychiatrists, clerics etc are on the record stating the converse. The most cursory examination reveals that LE fails to meet the generally accepted criteria for being a cult – in fact in most respects it is the opposite! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter (talk • contribs).(It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 14:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC))

• Actually, no. The fact that this has been discussed by noted academics, and classified as such by the Federal Sovereign Governments of multiple countries - to the affect that Landmark Education had to completely shut down all operations in multiple countries - is highly notable for a for-profit, privately owned company. Smee 18:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

• • I think the consensus is that is not a cult. The Gov't references are irregular, meaning some have Landmark as a "sect" not a cult and some don't depending on the year. Also in looking at the wiki cult_checklist article, Landmark does not fit these criteria.Mvemkr 23:30, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

• • • This WP:OR thought is my POV and cannot be entered on my account only, but by several accounts including my own direct experience with "est", familial experience with LE and contemporary opinions from Tony Robbins adherents it matches the cult_checklist article on several lists. Shirley Harrison's and two more on a casual look. It *is* highly aberrant among many "sects" that it was banished, but that does depend on the culture of the countries too.Zortyl 06:30, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

• • • Some of the government references to "sect" would better translate as "cult". If we have any sort of continuum covering sect/cult, Landmark Education seems to lie within that continuum. Lack of evidence of culthood in certain years does not constitute lack of culthood overall. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

What "continuum" are you talking about?

For example, see Church-sect typology. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Can you cite any legitimate research that puts Landmark on a sect/cult" continuum?

See the references in List of groups referred to as cults, especially those relating to est. (Yes, I assume a body of commonality between est and Landmark Education.) -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

You are coming form a pre-determined POV that it is a cult that is refuted by the vast majority of editors on this page.

I hadn't noticed that my developing views had become pre-determined: thanks for pointing this out with such clear and detailed proofs. -- I recognize that certain editors dispute the mentioned point-of-view; I see no definitive refutation, however. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Alex Jackl 15:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Zortyl, I can't tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing. I do have a caution though- one of the big minority views that caused the protection of the article is that "est" and Landmark Education are the same. They are certainly not... at least as far as I can tell from talking to people who have done both.

The issue remains debatable, then. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Nope - closed deal as far as I can tell. The vast majority seem to agree. Alex Jackl 15:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Lack of unanimity means the discussion may continue. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Because Landmark licensed Werner Erhard's technology (BTW: that IS a notable fact!) and some of the people involved in est like Werner's brother and sister and some of the est Trainers are also involved in this the two get collapsed by the "Werner Erhard's ghost is running the corporation behind the scenes" crowd. I also don't understand the Tony Robbins reference. I think there does need to be a section on this in the article by the way- just it should be a paragraph or two. Remember: although so.me bureaucrats and some journalists have called the company a cult NO US court has ever upheld that. Not once.

We cannot allow mere US courts to trump sovereign governments in an international encyclopedia. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I FULLY agree with this! And your point is? Alex Jackl 15:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

ANd any journal article that straight up said "LE is a cult" has retracted. It is so non-notable and so a throwback to the whole "est" controversies that it merits at best two paragraphs.

The alleged throwback to est controversies merits considerable analysis in itself in this context. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

It may indeed merit analysis - ON THE EST PAGE. But frankly- this is an encyclopedia not a platform for anlysis of proving some point. Alex Jackl 15:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Intersection between two articles calls for mention in each. Items and linkages of interest to the Wikipedia community and to the wider community deserve a place in the encyclopedia. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

A mention is one thing, an X Files style conspiracy theory is something else.Triplejumper 19:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

A mention can hint at a conspiracy, but it may take thorough discussion of an issue to debunk/prove the multiple links and parallels. -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Alex Jackl 14:04, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

It does lead to an interesting question.. how do we in Wikipedia discuss the "merit" of a citation? I mean there are a lot of Internet articles about people asserting that the world will end when the Popcorn god crossed the tenth dimension and take all the true believers to the concession stand in the sky You might get ten links of detailed physics jargon and explanations about the path of ascension up the movie aisle. That doesn't mean even ONE of those belongs on the physics page of Wikipedia or on a cosmology page. I mean that is one of the things that happened in this article - it got drenched by POV, fringish references to journalism articles and books and references that said almost nothing but were given great weight. I mean- for instance- one of the references was to a book discussing the elements of a cult and there was a quote that had nothing to do with Landmark Education and the reference was justified robotically as a "valid, published source" by Wikipedia's policies. I know this problem is not unique to this article... can any editors give me a good reference to where this is talked about in Wikipedia? I am clear this isn't appropriate to this page Alex Jackl 14:04, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The whole "cult accusation" drips with a Point of View designed to advance a particular agenda. Millions of people go to Starbucks every day to satisfy their particular tastes, recommend the place, even hang out there. Each year, millions of users around the world contribute their time as contributors to Wikipedia. If someone used their editing privileges to call Starbucks or Wikipedia a "cult" as a way to disparage the organizations, even if they could quote someone else's editorial point of view with reference to a book or article, such attempts to advance a Point of View would be quickly deleted from the Wikipedia pages. This whole section should be deleted. Simplyfabulous 21:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Can one then use the term "cult" without disparaging something? Yes. -- Can one discuss accusations of culthood in Wikipedia? -- Of course. -- Does Landmark Education have some sort of exemption from such discussions, especially given the majority popular view of it? No. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

If you are suggesting that the majority popular view is that Landmark is a cult, it smacks of POV. Triplejumper 19:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Just as the suggestion that Landmark Education represents a worthy and worthwhile endeavor represents a point-of-view -- albeit an extreme minority one. -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Response to Zortyl's comments

Thanks Zortyl, for your contribution to the debate. I don't really understand what you mean in saying that Landmark meets Shirly harrison's criteria for being a cult: here are her tests, and my comments:

* A powerful leader who claims divinity or a special mission entrusted to him/her from above;

Doesn't apply - there is no overall leader of Landmark, it is run by an executive board which is elected annually by the shareholders, who are also the employees of the company. And certainly no-one claims divinity!

Ever hear of multiple/group leadership? -- And what happened to the alternative to divinity: "a special mission entrusted ... from above"? -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Good point - that is more evidence that Landmark is not a cult. The lack of "orders from some divine thing/above" Given this isn't present just adds to the massive evidence behind it not being a cult. Thanks! Alex Jackl 15:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

When did Landmark Education centers then stop preaching the "special mission" from above which we could paraphrase as "Go forth and recruit"? -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

* Revealed scriptures or doctrine;

Doesn't apply - there is no doctrine or belief system, merely a set of philosophical conjectures which customers are invited to "try out and see whether they work".

In practice, do you find a remarkable similarity of belief concerning leadership. responsibility, enrolment, etc among "graduates" of Landmark Education? -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

No. It is one of the interesting things about participating in Landmark's programs: how diverse the particpant's are - in everything.

I do not see a similarity here. It is like saying science and creationism are similar.Triplejumper 15:54, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Acolytes start different. Their common demonstrated reverence for leadership, responsibility, enrolment, etc just happens? The commonality of language expressing such ideas suddenly springs up? -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Where do you get reverence? Using a word to convey and idea doesn't automatically reflect a belief system. What Pendant17 is saying here is based on personal conjecture. Triplejumper 19:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I "get reverence" from the repeated appeals to such terms and their insinuation into multiple situations. -- I agree that using a word (such as "reverence') does not automatically imply a belief-system. But repeated use of a set of words may suggest a "doctrine", which relates to Harrison's point. -- Can one have non-personal conjecture? -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

* Deceptive recruitment;

Doesn't apply - prospects are invited to presentations where they find out about what goes on and what results people get, and can ask any questions they like, and then choose whether to register into a course or not. Not only that but they can choose to leave a few hours into any course and get their money back (actually two opportunities to do that in the case of the Landmark Forum).

You regard the presentations and the first few hours as representatively accurate? -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I think they do give people an accurate picture of what happens in the Landmark Forum. As a matter of fact they do a piece of the Landmark Forum in the introduction, they give a sylabbuss of what will be covered. So yes... extremely so. Alex Jackl 15:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The results promised in the presentations are backed up by survey results from customers. Does the person who signs up to train for a charity marathon for the first time understand what the "wall" will feel like when they hit it? Are the personal challenges that they face in raising the money to participate in the race a suprise? Yes. Can you say that the Lukemia Society or the Breast Cancer Foundations are deceiving people? Triplejumper 15:54, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Accuracy as to the content of the "Landmark Forum" -- perhaps, but accuracy as to the pervading behavior and the "possibilities" of ongoing service to the greater goal? -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

* Totalitarianism and alienation of members from their families and/or friends;

Doesn't apply - on the contrary, many customers re-build relationships with friends and family members from whom they had become estranged.

And similarly, some "customers" estrange families and friends through their ongoing commitment to Landmark Education and all its works. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. I understand that some people are upset when people change their lives and attribute it to Landmark's work. Frankly, that will happen with anything that has people reflect on their lives. Landmark's programs do a good job in helping me inspect what they are committed to and what they stand for in life. People then make decisions bas ed on that. Most people are happy with those decisions, a minority aren't. The same thing happens when people go to a business seminar , or a therapist, or change jobs. It impacts those around them, they make decisions . It does not make any of those things a cult. The fact is the VAST majority (see all the studies citing satisfaction, etc.)are positive and many strongly so. In the Landmark Forum core principles include "stop making your family wrong, forgive your family, re-establish communication where it has been broken, be authentic". This goes EXACTLY opposite what the metrics that describe a cult look for . In this particular metric LE is an anti-cult.

We can chalk up "alienation from family and friends" as a given, then. It goes well with the totalitarianism of thought-processes as to (for example) the merits of Landmark Education and the deficiencies of outsiders. One need not seek far for examples of this one-track tendency. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

* The use of indoctrination, by sophisticated mind-control techniques, based on the concept that once you can make a person behave the way you want, then you can make him/her believe what you want;

Doesn't apply - although many critics claim this, without much data to back it up!.

... and some supports claim the contrary, without much data to back up their assertions. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

If there is not much data for either side then it is like the Salem Witch Trials again. "If she floats and lives she is a Witch, if she sinks and drowns,then she is a mortal being." Triplejumper 15:56, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The point may apply, then? -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

* Slave labour - that is, the use of members on fundraising or missionary activities for little or no pay to line the leader's pockets;

Doesn't apply - certainly people do assist at Landmark event (but only those who want to - about 1% of customers in any given year), but no-one's pockets are being lined (except for the customers who get the courses at much cheaper prices than they would otherwise be).

What percentage of "graduates" perform the alternative: "missionary' (recruiting) work to the ultimate benefit of the corporate coffers? -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I would imagine that Harrison was alluding to practices like the door-to-door poundings by groups like the Mormons or the Jehova’s Witnesses, not marketing by personal recommendation. Does American Express encouraging me to refer my friends make it a cult?

Harrison may have omitted to make her meaning more precise. "Missionary activities" do loom large in the Landmark Education world-view. -- As for American Express, it may need to comply with others of Harrison's points -- as (I suggest) Landmark Education already does. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

And besides - I’m sure that someone who has studied Landmark Education as much as you have must be well aware that there are no “corporate coffers” being swollen. Why are you trying to promote this misleading negative spin? DaveApter 10:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Do I have to research the number and numbers of Landmark Education's bank-accounts to make a convincing case of the existence of "corporate coffers"? -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

* Misuse of funds and the accumulation of wealth for personal or political purposes at the expense of members;

Doesn't apply - the modest operating profits are re-invested into the business and not distributed to the shareholders.

I wonder what proportion of Landmark Education profits go into legal expenses and/or into attempts to suppress free speech on the demerits of Landmark Education... -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

This kind of POV baseless speculation does not even belong on a Wikipedia talk page. It is filled with weasel words, makes no attempt to constructively criticize the article, and is solely on the talk page to spread innuendo and negative spin. Please refrain from doing that. This kind of behavior is what got the page protected before. Alex Jackl 15:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Pendant17, Thank you for your opinion, but I don't think our wondering or speculating about something there is no verifiable answer to is leading us toward consensus on this article.Triplejumper 15:56, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Which of my words count as "weasel-words"? "Landmark Education"? "Profits"? "Legal expenses"? "Free speech"? "Demerits"? -- One could tot up the number of known legal cases and actions involving Landmark Education and debit the estimated costs against non-exploitative PR. -- Speculation in general and extrapolation on the behavior of Landmark Education in particular may lead to more insights than unquestioning acceptance of (say) corporate spin. Pending a full disclosure by Landmark Education, one can raise the "possibility" of what happens. And the Electronic Frontier Foundation <speculation> might not accept </speculation> that its actions against Landmark Education had nothing to do with "free speech on the demerits...". -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

* Exclusivity - "we are right and everyone else is wrong".

Doesn't apply - no-one is asked to believe anything.

I don't expect to hear any more complaints about minority non-notable viewpoints on the subject of Landmark Education then... -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

See above re: POV weasel words. Lets be constructive, if it is possible.Alex Jackl 15:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The point has a certain importance. The "we are right and everyone else is wrong" does sound like a minority view-point these days -- but one often encountered amongst Landmark Education boosters. Can anyone think of a way to demonstrate the contrary? -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

DaveApter 17:38, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

• While I am sure that we all have some opinions here (and we should respect them), lets keep dealing with facts and seeking consensus. Triplejumper 15:57, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
  • I endorse the search for facts. Consensus may have to wait a little longer. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Brainwashing accusations

The same as above, but more so – this is a completely absurd accusation, which does not merit even inclusion in a serious encyclopedia article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter (talk • contribs).(It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 14:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC))

• It is a very serious issue that has been brought forth by legal cases, into the public domain, as well as by experts and participants, and should be described as such. Smee 18:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

• So has the Hostess Twinkie defense.Triplejumper 20:05, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Indeed, but not in multiple cases involving Landmark Education as defendant. Smee 20:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC).
    • My point here is that Brainwashing is sensational. Should the article on Brittany Spears have a section titled "No Underwear"? This is an encyclopedia. Triplejumper 21:18, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
    • The lack of underwear does not explain Ms Spears's original and ongoing prominence. Whereas the concept of brainwashing might well explain Landmark Education's otherwise unaccountable success in survival and spreading amongst the small minority of people it has lured into its seminars. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
      • Pendant17, it appears that you presume that brainwashing is the reason for Landmark Education's success. That seems like a pretty big stretch, but I respect your right to an opinion. What it doesn't take into consideration however is the more likely explanation that significant numbers of people like the programs.Triplejumper 19:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

EDITORS PLEASE TAKE NOTE: This is unbelievable. It is like you are channeling Smee. Are you sure you are not a sock puppet of Smee's? You are so hooked in your radical belief that Landmark has powerful enchantment powers (possibly acquired from space aliens)) and has brainwashed over a million people. You can't even see the POV dripping from your statements. That paragraph is nothing other than spin mud-throwing. The cult controversy IS NOTEWORTHY. However- it has been debunked over and over again. No serious study has ever called Landmark a cult. Every time a journal article has said "Landmark is a cult" they have retracted. The fact is that people have written books and it has been in the media so people assume it and have added Landmark to their "list of cults/sects". It has NOT ONCE. NOT EVEN ONE TIME survived study and investigation in a legal environment. How non-notable do you want to get. Now it is worthy of being mentioned in the article because it IS something that has been associated with Landmark in the public eye. But that is what make sit notable. Fact is: It is not a cult. All the studies and legal history support that. Please stop littering this page with that POV weaselling- it is what has been the source of all the troubles with this page. Alex Jackl 15:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Do I channel Smee or vice versa? Difficult to determine -- apart from our different styles, interests, and activities on Wikipedia. However, to return from the joys of gossip and the pastime of insults and the minority-viewpoint discussion of the issue of cultdom, I note a lack of specific relevant response to my discussion of Ms Spears and brainwashing. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• Brainwashing accusations should be removed. They are vague, inflammatory, and apparently without sufficient foundation. We live in a litiginous society. The presence of a lawsuit against an organization, individual, or type of individual is evidence of very little, and there seems no other credible sources for any such accusation. For example, the number of lawsuits against obsetricians is particularly high in the U.S. It would be unwise to take this as evidence that obstetrics is a "quackish field of medicine." It is more likely evidence of the tendency to try to put blame on others in the face of misfortune, and of the current willingness to bring lawsuits against others. Further, "brainwashing" is an inflammatory term that could vaguely be applied to television commercials, training of soldiers in the U.S., standard psychotherapeutic and psychiatric techniques, and so forth. Caltechdoc 00:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Putting "brainwashing" in quotes shows great wisdom: we can now discuss the concept without becomimng inflammatory. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• It could be said that McDonalds, Organic Farming, Western Medicine, Public Libraries and thousands of other models for delivering content, materials, food, etc. are brainwashing people by communicating a concept, or delivering a product. This is obviously not the case. Every organization or institution or goup or company that has a message could be seen as brainwashing it's contituencies or customers. If that is the case than those inferences should be drawn in hundreds of thousands of Wikipedia articles. Nsamuel 18:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Few would dispute the prevalence of idea-peddling. We on the other hand may need to address the issue as to why Landmark Education has succeeded -- albeit in very limited and special circumstances -- in propagating its practices so thoroughly and overwhelmingly. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Austrian Classification

It is completely ridiculous to devote aboout a page to this issue. We have no idea what the criteria are the the compiler of the report used. It is a report about the tolerance of the Austrian government towards minority groups, not about the characteristics of the groups themselves, and LE has never had an operation in Austria anyway. The whole section should come out. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter (talk • contribs).(It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 14:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC))

• The fact that the for-profit, privately owned company was classified by the government of Austria as a "sect" in their country, in multiple reports, year after year, is highly unusual for a for-profit, privately owned company, and should be noted as such. Smee 18:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

It is also notable that Landmark was dropped in 2006 from that report. Notice how little weight that was given. All POV pushing trying to get a single POV justified. Alex Jackl 14:06, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Dropped or simply omitted? -- The decline of Landmark Education across Europe may deserve some weight. I append for reference the relevant section -- recently excised. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

===== Austria ===== In Austria in 1996, the Federal Ministry of the Environment, Youth and the Family published a list of 200 groups it labelled cults (in German: ''Sekten'')<ref> "Sekten : Wissen schützt. Eine Information des Bundesministeriums für Umwelt, Jugend und Familie, Stubenbastei 5, 1010 Wien, 1996 (Sects : Knowledge protects. Information from the Federal Ministry of the Environment, Youth and the Family, Stubenbastei 5, 1010 Wien, 1996) </ref> According to the [http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51539.htm International Religious Freedom Report 2005], the government of Austria had labeled Landmark Education as a "sect": <blockquote> The vast majority of groups termed "sects" by the Government are small organizations with fewer than 100 members. Among the larger groups is the Church of Scientology, with between 5,000 and 6,000 members, and the Unification Church, with approximately 700 adherents throughout the country. Other groups found in the country include Divine Light Mission, Eckankar, Hare Krishna, the Holosophic community, the Osho movement, Sahaja Yoga, Sai Baba, Sri Chinmoy, Transcendental Meditation, Landmark Education, the Center for Experimental Society Formation, Fiat Lux, Universal Life, and The Family.<ref> [http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51539.htm International Religious Freedom Report 2005], [[Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor]]. </ref> </blockquote> The [[Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor]]'s [http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71367.htm International Religious Freedom Report 2006] did not list Landmark Education in the equivalent context and there is no evidence that Landmark ever operated in Austria.

Scientology

This is merely a blatant attempt to smear LE using guilt by association. There is no connection between LE and Scientlology and there never has been. No authoritative source have ever produced a convincing argument that there is. Most of the utterances on the subject are from armchair commentators who have no knowledge of Landmark. The whole section is inappropriate and should be removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DaveApter (talk • contribs).(It was not unsigned - see above DaveApter 14:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC))

• All of the material is heavily sourced to reputable citations. The fact that noted academics continue to write about the similarities between Scientology methodology and Landmark Education coursework, over 10 years since the "founding" of this for-profit, privately owned company, is extremely notable and highly unusual. Clearly these authors and new religious movement/cult scholars have a differing opinion on this issue than the editor above. Smee 18:39, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

The only reason to even have something about Scientology in the article is to insinuate something sinister. If we are simply drawing a comparison bewteen two courses, then why has no one put Tony Robbins, Dale Carnegie, or Dr. Phil in this article? You can find noted and reputable sources that will make those comparisons to Landmark as well. Accusations are a dime a dozen in this day of modern spin. Insinuation of danger with an intention to scare people into beleiving something has been used since the begining of civilization. Senator Joseph McCarthy, when it came to accusing half of Hollywood of being comunists and calling them up infront of the HUAC really looked convincing at the time. For that matter so did Colin Powell when he went infront of the UN Security Council making the case for WMD's. I think the only basis for having a scientology section in this article is an attempt to fabricate a reality that is simply not there. By the way, today is the 4th anniversay of the begining of the War in Iraq. Lets be cautious about this.Triplejumper 20:03, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• Cautious about what? And if you can find as many reputable citations comparing Landmark to Tony Robbins, Dale Carnegie, or Dr. Phil, we should add them to the article, yes. Smee 20:05, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

• Actually no DON'T DO THAT- Wikipedia is not supposed to be a link farm- as a matter of fact it is against policy. The Scientology connection is bogus. As far as I can tell the ONE connection is that the guy founded the organization from which Landmark bought their initial IP took some courses with Scientology at LATEST -->36<-- years ago and may or may not have used some of their material in a course he created and that was retired 21 years ago. That is your big notable link right? I am just checking. The links to TOny Robbins and Dr. Phil and such are far more recent but also just as not notable. You are pressing an EXTREMELY minority viewpoint. Even your own citations - when the issue is directly addressed have the SME's saying "NO- there is no link between Landmark and Scientology". The best you can muster is sensational journalism articles trying to drum up some sales. As Triplejumper said in this day and age of spin accusations are a dime a dozen. You just believe something and are desperately trying to wedge the facts to make your minority viewpoint more than it is. This is not a personal attack- I am rigorously commenting on innaccurate and weaselly-worded sections of the article trying to push a POV and prove something. I have nothing against you and have had pleasant exchanges with you! Alex Jackl 03:49, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• • I will not participate in discussion if you refuse to comment on content not contributors, thanks. Smee 03:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

• • • Refusing to engage in a discussion of content and pretending that this about you is the same IMO as merely opining in the article. I take it from your refusal to talk about content and insisting that this is about contributors to mean you have no answer to this and are acknowledging the points made by others as accurate. You are the one making this about contributors and not about content. RESPOND to questions about the content. Also I request you review WP:NPA and STOP accusing me of personal attacks against you. YOU are not YOUR opinion. Just because I disagree with your opinion and what you are writing does not mean I am attacking you. I also recommend you WP:UNDUE - it may enlighten you as to why you are hearing so much frustration about your edits. Alex Jackl 04:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• • • • This is all blatent innuendo with no common thread and no specifics, excepting the Bavarian report which is not a comparison of LE and Scientology, but an evaluation of criteria. Sm1969 04:54, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

This is probably obvious, based on the above discourse, but I agree with Triplejumper and Sm1969. I believe that the Scientology links should be entirely eliminated from the article. I in no way question whether Werner Erhard did take some Scientology courses in the far past (late 60s) and did have run ins with them (late 80s?) but that is probably (just my opinion) exaggerated as well. We should certainly keep some reference to Werner Erhardt in the article and then people interested in him can get more information there. Alex Jackl 13:30, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

This section doesn't make a coherent statement and its purpose appears to be to associate LE and Scientology without asserting any concrete association. It reads like a collection of random sentences which contain the words Landmark Education and Scientology. The quotes don't draw any direct connections between the two organizations which would entail actions by LE (the subject of the article), but cite the most indirect actions of others who "compare", "suggest", and "reference". Further, the Bavarian Study quote is uninterpretable to this native speaker of English. I concur that the section should be removed. Tealwarrior 23:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

• Unless a definitive and clear business relationship exists between LE and Scientology, and there is no evidence that such exists, there is no point in linking them in this article. Both organizations arguable exist inside a category of "Personal Growth & Development Programs", in which case a seperate article about that topic that references a list of such programs might be appropriate (although Scientology is by it's own definition a religion, not a personal development program). Given there is no evidence of a specific business relationship between these two organziations, references to Scientiology should not be in an article on LE. Caltechdoc 00:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

• • Some people have an interest in Landmark Education as a "business". Some people have an interest in Scientology as something else apart from a business. Nevertheless observers make or examine links between the two (Nedopil, for example), regardless of the issue of any "business relationship". The very distance (theoretically) between a business and a religion makes the topic noteworthy. I propose the restoration of the section on Scientology as a basis for further evaluation. See below for the currently deleted section. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

== Scientology == In 1992 the [[Church of Scientology]] (which has the classification of a religious organization in certain jurisdictions, such as that of the United States of America, but not in others) included Werner Erhard, EST (Erhard Seminars Training) and "The Forum" on a list of "Suppressive Persons and Groups".<ref> [http://www.xenu.net/archive/enemy_names/enemy_list.html Suppressive Persons and Groups], Flag ED 2830RB, 25 July 1992. </ref><ref> "When it comes to Landmark Education Corporation, There's no meeting of the Minds.", ''Westword'', [[April 24]], [[1996]], Steve Jackson.<br>Landmark contends that all the bad publicity ultimately can be traced to one enemy: the Church of Scientology. And in fact, there is some truth to the charge. The church's own records indicate that Erhard and his organization were placed on an enemies list by the late L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology's founder. There's also evidence that the church hired private detectives to dig up dirt on Erhard and disseminate it to the press. </ref> Scientology has a special procedure that new Scientologists must go through if they have previously participated in either Erhard Seminars Training or in the Landmark Forum. Scientologists refer to the procedure as the "Est Repair Rundown".<ref> [http://www.smi.org/route/page41.htm Scientology Missions International], website, 2006. "Est Repair Rundown." "If you attended Erhard Seminar Training (EST) or Forum (one of its off-shoots), this rundown can repair any damage done by this off-beat activity. EST practices contained just enough truth, “borrowed” from Scientology processes, to get a case into restimulation — and then left it in that state without any means to repair it. This rundown undoes the damage and removes any stops so you can get everything Scientology has to offer. </ref> The German ''[[Stern (magazine)]]'' has compared Landmark Education to the [[Church of Scientology]].<ref> [http://www.lermanet.com/cisar/survey/bq.htm Soul Strip Tease], ''Stern'', [[Germany]], April 2, 1998. <br> They consistently promise total control to the same people whom are then subjected to total control. A good example to read up on in regards to this is Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard. </ref> The ''[http://www.mondotimes.com/1/world/de/87/3463/8577 Frankfurter Neue Presse]'', stated that: "They are suspected of having connections with the Scientology Church."<ref> [http://www.lermanet.com/cisar/survey/gu.htm Green Party detects a scandal in hall rental], ''[http://www.mondotimes.com/1/world/de/87/3463/8577 Frankfurter Neue Presse]'', May 29, 1998., by Kristiane Huber. </ref> In [[2003]] a [http://www.lermanet.com/cisar/germany/030217.htm Bavarian Study on Scientology] compared the practices of Landmark Education and of Scientology. ''The objective of the description and assessment of the Scientology and Landmark organizations was the investigation of the psychic, physical and social effects of the psycho- and social-techniques applied by those organizations respectively upon members and participants. The third objective also included the presentation of legal problems, conflicts or violations by the two organizations, along with pointers as to possible paths of resolution.''<ref> Heinrich Kuefner, Norbert Nedopil, Heinz Schoech, Robert Doerr, Stefanie Eiden, Raik Werner, "Expert opinion: Effects and risks of unconventional psycho- and social- techniques", [[Munich, Germany]], [[February 17]], [[2003]]. </ref> In [[2004]], [[Mona Vasquez]] appeared in the documentary "[[Voyage to the Land of the New Gurus]]" addressing what she saw as extensive and precise similarities between [[Scientology terminology]] and the [[jargon]] utilized by Landmark Education.<ref> "[[Voyage to the Land of the New Gurus]]", [[France 3]], ''[[Pièces a Conviction]]'', [[May 24]], 2004, [[Mona Vasquez]]. </ref> A member of [[Scientology]] for seven years, Vasquez wrote the book ''Et Satan créa la secte'' [''Satan Created the Cult: Memoirs of an escapee'']. In [[2006]], [[Susan J. Palmer]] discussed Landmark Education at a [[CESNUR]] conference. She referenced a statement by journalist Martin Mireille who had stated that Landmark Education is "a branch of Scientology". However, in Palmer's remarks, she rejects this assertion.<ref> [[Susan J. Palmer]], "France's About-Picard Law and Neo-Phare: The First Application of ''Abus de Faiblesse''", [[CESNUR]] 2006 International Conference, [[July 16]], [[2006]].<br> "Landmark Education, founded under the name 'est' by Werner Erhardt in the early 1970s, incorporates techniques from the Human Potential Movement, and is not, as journalist Martin Mireille wrote, 'a branch of Scientology'." </ref>.

Request Deletion of Section

The disposition of this section is also overwhelmingly aligned on by the editors. I am proposing that the entire Scientology section is removed as a non-notable, minority-viewpoint, POV content. Alex Jackl 21:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} I have unprotected the page. Everyone may edit, but please bear in mind to discuss before reverting whenever possible. CMummert · talk 02:34, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks CMummert! In the spirit of their request could some of the other editors chime in on this section... Alex Jackl 12:13, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

The Scientology section is a random collection of unrelated statements, all negative, and all relatively vague. It should be deleted. Sm1969 02:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Do we have a better place to refute alleged connections/parallels between Scientology and Landmark Education than in a reasoned and well-sourced section in the body of the Landmark Education article? -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

• The talk page is the place for debates not the article.Mvemkr 15:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
  • One debates on the talk-page. One presents non-minority opinions and studies and facts within the body of the article. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

If the allegations were noteworthy you are absolutely correct but since it seems clear they are irrelevant, POV spin, and non-notable.

I suggest Nedopil as a notable commemtator, for example. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

NO. I don't mean to sound harsh but we want to stick with NPOV representations in this article and not break WP:UNDUE. If you can find a notable, appropriate link to Scientology to Landmark Education beside the founder of a predecessor organization's personal issues with it then I might give you more credence.

The section in question contains more than personal issues. Let's put it back. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

But the truth is Scientology has ZERO relationship to Landmark Education:

Forget "relationship". Concentrate on links, influences, similarities, and differences. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• Werner Erhardt took Scientoiology courses in the sixties. (Werner Erhardt page MIGHT be a place for that if anyone thought it notable enough)
• Scientology and est had a tiff around Werner using their technology I think (not my area of expertise) (Maybe on Werner Erhard page or Scientology page if people thought it notable. )
• Landmark is using technology Werner Erhardt had in the 80s and has purchased the right to it. (that is already in the article)

There should be nothing on Scientology on the Landmark Education page as a majority of editors expressed in the two sections above.

The mere presence of editorial work, referenced and ordered and reflecting a substantial body of public opinion as to perceived linkages, suggests that a section on Scientlogy can only enrich the Landmark Education page. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree there is not a current notable citation that has been put forth and until there is one I think the this section should be removed.Mvemkr 15:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Why the requirement for a single "current" citation? Wikipedia covers the history of everything. Citations slightly pre-current remain valuable. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

In reviewing this whole article, the whole series of Scientology references is clearly "slanted" to advance a biased Point of View and violates Wikipedia policies. This is not the purpose of Wikipedia. The references should be removed. Simplyfabulous 20:20, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The "slanting" does not appear "clear" at all. Pending clarification, let's put the Scientology stuff back. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Loaded language

This whole section is essentially uninformed speculation, which is actually inaccurate and should be removed.DaveApter 14:19, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• This is clearly not "uninformed speculation", as every single sentence is highly sourced to a reputable secondary source. It is extremely unusual for a for-profit, privately owned company to be analyzed in this manner utilizing this methodology, and should be noted as such. Thanks. Smee 18:40, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

You say "it is highly unusual for a for-profit, privately owned company to be analyzed in this manner using this methodology". Thank you for your unsupported opinion. Now- what methodology? What analysis? In what manner? You keep making these grandiose statements, utilizing weasel words. and insuating things without saying exactly what you mean. Please explain what the above sentence means. Thanks! Alex Jackl 03:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Please see all of the heavily sourced citations in this subsection. That is what I am referring to here. Smee 03:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

I have reviewed them and find no manner of analysis or methodology. Random citations that mention vocabulary or "loaded language" or some reporter who is not a subject matter expert repeating something she read off the internet- not what I would call a reputable source! do not a cogent argument make. Please explain how these references actually prove anything. Thanks! Alex Jackl 04:27, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I see no "loaded language" and the content is sourced. Please refrain from removing sourced content. If there have been various sources making the comparison between LE and SC then it does belong in the article. Sfacets 04:57, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Let us consider this in the age of spin: Language and its dynamic definitions and appeal are the nature of all public teachings and marketing techniques. Movements fracture and join due to wording and terminology. Religions schism because of it. What makes that surprising or unimportant to all those here? Religions and Philosophies and (their word) mental "Technologies" ARE their terminology. Theology isn't an example? This isn't a new type of scrubbing brush they're selling, virtuous or malevolent.

Regardless... if they are revolutionary or they are regressive and hackneyed, their use of terminology in teaching is an essential aspect of their definition.Zortyl 06:43, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Religious Implications

I don't think this section is needed. For anyone in any religion there are "religious implications" to countless things. For an Orthodox Jew a door knob has religious implications on Saturdays. For a conservative muslim woman a hug has religious implications. For any number of Christian denominations, listening to the radio has religious implications. It may be notworthy that people from various religions have opinions about Landmark Education, but the section as it is currently written seems to imply that there is a religious status to Landmark makes no more sense than saying that a doornob has a religious status. Triplejumper 21:38, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

The religious fervor with which graduates of Landmark Education attempt to proselytise in itself gives Landmark Education significant religious implications. The section could profit from expansion rather than deletion. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

See above. POV. First, I disagree,. Second, even if I agreed "hard sell" does not equal "religion". (unless you worship Money which some in our society do!)Alex Jackl 15:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree about the "distinction" between "hard sell" and "religious fervor". "Hard sell" occurs in specific situations and often involves sales-droids. Whereas religious fervor sweeps through entire groups of people and can pervade their entire existence. I suggest that Landmark Education has more to do with the "religious fervor" category, and that mentioning (at least) religion as a point of comparison or similarity adds to our understanding of Landmark Education. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Please see my comment above about compliance with the WP:NPOV undue weight policies. DaveApter 14:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this section is not needed. Timb66 06:16, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Few sections count as "needed". We could redistribute the content of the "Religious Implications" section into other existing or potentially new sections. But deleting the text doesn't help anyone. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Bad Links

On the article there are references to outside sources that are bad links, 7, 15, 17, 31, and 42. They all go to pages that do no contain the cited content. Triplejumper 23:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps this was already fixed but 31 and 42 do seem to be valid links. I agree on the first three:

• 7 is a l;ink that is no longer good and ther eis also no ocntest on the question, I believe.
• 15 links to a site no longer available.
• 17 links to a site no longer available. Alex Jackl 06:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

When possible link to original content

There are a number of citations to news articles that could just as easily to to oringal sources, but instead go to a third party page. For example references 2, 47, 75, and 76 are listed as articles but the links go to Rickross.com. This does not seem nescessary when the articles cites are already available at their original sources. Triplejumper 23:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed- this is Wikipedia policy anyway.. this is just a given. Those links were put in to link farm Rick Ross's sites not because they were the original source. That is a no-brainer change once the site becomes unprotected. Alex Jackl 13:47, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

empty language

Here is how the article begins:

Landmark Education LLC (LE) offers training and development programs in over 20 countries. An employee-owned, private company, it has its headquarters in San Francisco, California. Its introductory course has the name The Landmark Forum.

Landmark Education purchased the intellectual property of Werner Erhard and Associates, a successor to the controversial Est Training, and since its founding in 1991 has developed other courses.

Landmark Education aims its courses primarily at individuals. Its subsidiary Landmark Education Business Development (LEBD) markets and delivers training and consulting to organizations. Landmark Education's subsidiary Tekniko Licensing Corporation licenses Landmark Education's "technology" to management-consulting firms.

Some critics question (for example) whether and to what degree Landmark Education courses benefit participants. Others criticise the use of volunteers by Landmark Education and examine the origins of the organization (est/WEA etc).

I am a native speaker of English, and I learned absolutely nothing from reading this passage. It would seem that the attempt at NPOV, combined with Landmark's own vagueness about itself, have produced a document that never actually says what Landmark is. What does this company do? I still have no idea.

I am not surprised to encounter empty corporatese from the company PR department ("to empower and enable people and organizations to generate and fulfill new possibilities. We create and provide programs, services, and paradigms that produce extraordinary results for our customers."), but Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. I don't think it's unreasonable to insist that an encyclopedia article tell you, in its first paragraph, what the subject of the article is. -leigh (φθόγγος) 06:05, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

leigh, Perhaps I can provide some background on that- that intro is the best we could do given some hostile POV editing . We had some better content about Landmark's actual commitment. Though don't be too quick to dismiss the above. One of the things that people don't get is that it is part of Landmark's core offerings to empower and people and organizations to generate and fulfill new possibilities. Whether they always succeed at that is another question but that is certainly in the design!

However- there is a lot of information there... you now know it is a "training and development" company that offers programs. You know it is international and in 20 countries. I agree that the historical stuff is a little fluffy and unnecessary but that is a result of compromise. I would recommend we add "in ontology into the description to give a little more direction on what kind of training and development. WHat do you think? Alex Jackl 19:49, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

"personal training and development" also makes sense in the lead or the lead could tell a little more detail about what kind of training and development landmark education offers. Sm1969 01:01, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Market penetration over time

This section looks like a re-hash of an old argument in the talk pages: See: "Majority opinions and minority opinions" from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Landmark_Education/Archive_2 and the later deletion of a similar section in: "Operational statistics section"

This section restores data previously deleted on questionable grounds. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The argument previously was that participation in LE programs is stagnent or waning, but the contributor hasn't come out and said that here, and instead provides evidence that this might be the case leaving such a conclusion to a reader.

Statistics can have multiple functions. These statistics, published to the web by Landmark Education, provide extracts from the set of the less spun contents of the Landmark education corporate web. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I thought the previous counter argument was pretty clear that the figures were not regularly updated on the LE website.

It might seem reasonable to assume that Landmark Education did not update its statistics on its website regularly, though I have seen no evidence of this, and one need not expect reasonable behavior from Landmark Education. On the other hand, someone with access to the Landmark Education website did and has updated that website with statistics from time to time. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

As you inserted this section, and are keen to keep it, could you let us know what is the point you are trying to make here, please? It seems to me to simply take up quite a lot of space with some not very illuminating statistics. DaveApter 10:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Statistics can prove useful, provided one knows their origin and degree authenticity. Statistics on the sales of tabulating machines in the 1920s would enhance any article seling with the story of IBM. Statistics on the number of converts or communicants would enhance any article on the story of Shinto in the 1930s. Landmark Education has generously "shared" with the world figures on its recruitment and scope. Unfortunately, some of those figures no longer appear on Landmark Education's web-page and have become inaccessible on the Internet Archive. Wikipedia can help! -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Citing them as such seems misleading.

Misleading as to what? The statistics apparently come from Landmark Education, and appear in the article with detailed references as to their provenance and dating. An interpretation of them might mislead, but the actual statistics provide a verifiable record of what Landmark Education published and when. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I think this section should be removed again, and added if some consensus is reached on the talk page. Tealwarrior 00:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

If someone can produce a better-attested set of statistics, we could merge them into the article. In the meantime I suggest retaining and building on what we have available on the important topic of Landmark Education's ongoing impact on humanity over time as measured by numbers of "graduations" and by numbers of offices. -- Pedant17 05:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The lack of an update between 2002 and 2004 is evidence of not updating the site. I can think of other theories, but this is the simplest and most likely.

The text demonstrates that someone did update the Landmark Education site between 2002 and 2004: the phrase "current 2001 numbers" became successively "current 2002 numbers" and "current 2003 numbers", as the quotes reveal. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I see your point that it's not misleading to say: "This is what was published and when", but then the header should be something to suggest that, rather than that these are believable indicators of market penetration. The links cited are no longer accessible either, so the verifiable part is no longer the case. Without analysis these numbers don't contribute much of anything. Perhaps citing the most recent numbers posted (1,000,000 as of 2005) would be the most generally interesting. Talk of "ongoing impact on humanity over time" seems like it's best left for the discussion page and not in the article. Tealwarrior 18:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Analysis might constitute original research. The most recent numbers convey less if divorced from their historical equivalents. Thank you for endorsing my placing of the phrase "ongoing impact on humanity over time" on the Talk-page rather than in the article proper. -- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The list of statistics does seem to be unnecessary. I concur that the most recent numbers would be sufficient and the most interesting. Timb66 00:53, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Some people maintain an interest in the past. Such people mnay sometimes read Wikipedia. Deleted text reads:

=== Market penetration over time === A quote from Charlotte Faltermeyer's 1998 article in ''Time'' magazine, as reproduced (without an attributed date) on the [http://www.wernererhard.com/wernererhardtimemagazine.htm wernererhard.com website]<ref> Retrieved [[2007-03-04]] </ref> gives a figure of 300,000 Landmark Forum-attendees since 1991. The [http://www.archive.org Internet Archive site] previously held some historical snapshots from Landmark Education's website: [http://web.archive.org/web/20000510053250/www.landmarkforum.com/articles/default.htm Landmark Education's web-site as of 10 May 2000] linked to a [http://web.archive.org/web/20000510033016/www.time.com/time/magazine/1998/dom/980316/society.the_best_of_est.3.html ''Time'' magazine page] of March 16, 1998, (Volume 151, number 10) where an article by Charlotte Faltermeyer estimated 300,000 graduates since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 42 offices in 11 countries. Before the owner of the http://www.landmarkeducation.com site blocked access to the information, the [[Internet Archive]]'s archive of [http://web.archive.org/web/20021005063934/www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=124&siteObjectID=593 Landmark Education's web-site as of 28 November 2002], in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's ''Time'' magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 600,000 "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 60 offices in 21 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2001 numbers"). The Internet Archive record of this infomation became unavailable on the Web at some time between [[4 March]] 2007 (when the information again became part of the Wikipedia article on [[Landmark Education]]) and [[7 April]] 2007). Before the owner of the http://www.landmarkeducation.com site blocked access to the information, the [[Internet Archive]]'s archive of [http://web.archive.org/web/20030625104924/www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=124&siteObjectID=593 Landmark Education's web-site as of 29 July 2003], in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's ''Time'' magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 600,000 "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 60 offices in 24 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2002 numbers"). The Internet Archive record of this infomation became unavailable on the Web at some time between [[4 March]] 2007 (when the information again became part of the Wikipedia article on [[Landmark Education]]) and [[7 April]] 2007). Before the owner of the http://www.landmarkeducation.com site blocked access to the information, the [[Internet Archive]]'s archive of [http://web.archive.org/web/20031212204155/www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=124&siteObjectID=593 Landmark Education's web-site as of 10 June 2004], in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's ''Time'' magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 600,000 "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 58 offices in 26 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2003 numbers"). The Internet Archive record of this infomation became unavailable on the Web at some time between [[4 March]] 2007 (when the information again became part of the Wikipedia article on [[Landmark Education]]) and [[7 April]] 2007). Before the owner of the http://www.landmarkeducation.com site blocked access tothe information, the [[Internet Archive]]'s archive of [http://web.archive.org/web/20040220191214/www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=124&siteObjectID=593 Landmark Education's web-site as of 1 April 2005], in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's ''Time'' magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 725,000 Landmark Forum attendees since 1991, and 58 offices in 26 countries. The Internet Archive record of this infomation became unavailable on the Web at some time between [[4 March]] 2007 (when the information again became part of the Wikipedia article on [[Landmark Education]]) and [[7 April]] 2007). Landmark Education's web-site as of [[7 February]] 2006, in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's ''Time'' magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 758,000 "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 58 offices in 26 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2004 numbers"). [http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=124&siteObjectID=593 Landmark Education's web-site as of [[7 April]] 2007], in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's ''Time'' magazine article of March 1998, claimed "approximately 1,000,000" "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 51 offices in 25 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2005 numbers").

Compare the less definitive current figures, all retrieved from the Landmark Education website yesterday:

Landmark Education states variously that "More than 880,000"<ref> http://www.landmarkeducation.com/menu.jsp?top=26&mid=655 "Articles about Landmark Education" retrieved [2007-04-09]] </ref> "approximately 1,000,000"<ref> http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=124&siteObjectID=593,"Time Magazine excerpt" retrieved [2007-04-09]] </ref> or "almost [1,000,000]" people have taken part in its introductory program, "The Landmark Forum" since 1991.<ref> [http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=26&mid=659 Landmark Education For the Media], Landmark Education website, retrieval: [[2007-04-09]] </ref>

-- Pedant17 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

situation in germany

"Landmark Education sued for correction and, on May 14, 1997, the Berlin court (Volksgericht 27A)..."

the last "volksgericht" in germany existed in the 1920's in bavaria. i suggest the author should verify their source. believe me, there is no such court in berlin. i'm sorry i can't correct it, since i could not even find any other court decision concerning landmark in berlin in 1997. 87.162.75.156 00:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Examination of sources

As I've said above, there are controversies but the prominence given to them in the article is out of all proportion to the number of people holding these views or the quality of the evidence to surpport them.

People who have an agenda of using this article to propagate damaging fallacious stories about Landmark frequently defend their edits by referring to the “reliable sources” on which their edits are based.

But on examining the references, we see that many of them are highly questionable:

The "cult" issue

Samways has not observed the conduct of any Landmark courses,

Observing the conduct of all or any Landmark education "courses" does not constitute a pre-requisite for commenting on the observable outcomes of attending such things. -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

and her entirely speculative comments are based on impressions gained from the comments of self-selected individuals who contacted her with complaints.

"entirely speculative"? -- The self-selecting individuals compare neatly with those self-selecting individuals who choose to boost Landmark Education. Samways has the advantage of fitting Landmark Education into an array of similar cults and dodgy operations. -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The "Psychogroups and Cults in Denmark", mentions Landmark almost as an aside and there is no suggestion that the comment is based on anything other than hearsay.

Asides have particular merit in the evaluation of objects of popular culture such as Landmark Education. Where a full-blown investigation might seem silly and time-wasting, an aside can reveal the everyday mainstream opinion on a matter. -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The paragraph about Sweden establishes no more than that public interest declined after the airing of a couple of sensationalistic TV programs, but we have no idea of the fairness or otherwise of the treatment in these programs.

So do some research, find out about the circumstances, and report in the article of the degree of alleged sensationalism and the balance of the programs. Deletion does not promote NPOV as well as further impeccable research. What a great opportunity to expand one's Swedish-language skills! -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The term cult has several distinct but related meanings, not all of which are pejorative (and this problem is compounded when a foreign language report is cited, without a sense of the precise nuances of the word in that tongue). Detractors often try to dig up references where the term has been applied in what may well have been a non-pejorative sense, in order to smear by association. This applies specifically to the Belgian, German and Austrian citations. There is no indication of who compiled these reports, what criteria they used, or what level of examination was applied.

The Belgian, German and Austrian reports themselves go into considerable detail on criteria and methodology. Bring that to the table. -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Brainwashing accusations

There are two instances quoted of attempts to sue Landmark for allegedly prompting a mental breakdown. Apart from the possibility of these cases being opportunistically motivated, and the fact that the courts did not uphold the contention that Landmark could be established as a cause, two cases out of almost a million is clearly statistically insignificant (and in any event is vanishingly smaller than the number of instances that would be expected from a random sample of this size drawn from the population at large). And incidentally, neither of these cases actually reference the section heading of “brainwashing”.

I agree that court cases provide an unrepresentative sample. We could expand this section to deal with other allegations and degrees of allegation.

-- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The Lell reference is simply a subjective unsubstantiated opinion of one customer made in a book he wrote.

The reference to Lell reflects the writing of a detailed memoir which publishers deemed worthy of publication and defense. The inclusion of comments from the field of psychology and the expansion to include the account of Lell's parents give it weight far greater than that of "subjective unsubtatntiated opinion" -- even before the court case lent some support to the expression of that opinion. -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Austrian Classification

See above, but this reference is particularly spurious, as the focus of that report is nothing to do with evaluating the groups mentioned, but is making a case for the tolerant nature of the Austrian state in accommodating divergent beliefs.

The very title of the Austrian ministerial report (Cults: Knowledge protects") and the grouping of Landmark Education with other "Psycho-groups" suggests that the Austian ministerial report does more than advertise tolerance. See http://www.ilsehruby.at/Sektenbroschuere.html -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Scientology

There is no connection between Scientology and Landmark, and attempts to pretend that there is is merely deliberate scaremongering.

If and only if one dismisses documented links, one can make such claims. -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Scientology is religion and has a dogma that we are Thetans from outer space who will be liberated when we re-connect with our Thetan nature.

Some people do regard Scientology as a religion. Others treat it as a commercial enterprise quite similar in several ways to Landmark Education. Wikipedia has the flexibility to cover different categorizations. -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Here for reference the latest undeleted version of the text as discussed below: -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Scientology

In 1992 the Church of Scientology (which has the classification of a religious organization in certain jurisdictions, such as that of the United States of America, but not in others) included Werner Erhard, EST (Erhard Seminars Training) and "The Forum" on a list of "Suppressive Persons and Groups".

Scientology has a special procedure that new Scientologists must go through if they have previously participated in either Erhard Seminars Training or in the Landmark Forum. Scientologists refer to the procedure as the "Est Repair Rundown".

The German Stern (magazine) has compared Landmark Education to the Church of Scientology. The Frankfurter Neue Presse, stated that: "They are suspected of having connections with the Scientology Church."

In 2003 a Bavarian Study on Scientology compared the practices of Landmark Education and of Scientology. The objective of the description and assessment of the Scientology and Landmark organizations was the investigation of the psychic, physical and social effects of the psycho- and social-techniques applied by those organizations respectively upon members and participants. The third objective also included the presentation of legal problems, conflicts or violations by the two organizations, along with pointers as to possible paths of resolution.

In 2004, Mona Vasquez appeared in the documentary "Voyage to the Land of the New Gurus" addressing what she saw as extensive and precise similarities between Scientology terminology and the jargon utilized by Landmark Education. A member of Scientology for seven years, Vasquez wrote the book Et Satan créa la secte [Satan Created the Cult: Memoirs of an escapee].

In 2006, Susan J. Palmer discussed Landmark Education at a CESNUR conference. She referenced a statement by journalist Martin Mireille who had stated that Landmark Education is "a branch of Scientology". However, in Palmer's remarks, she rejects this assertion..

The first two references, from the Scientology organisation itself, merely demonstrate that Scientology is antagonistic to Landmark, and do nothing to demonstrate any similarities.

The very existence of antagonism implies causes in the past, which investigators of Landmark Education may or may not find of interest. Should we delete such points on the off-chance? -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The third one is merely an opinion expressed in a popular magazine article.

Did the text of the Landmark Education article provide a fair summary of this reflection of popular culture? -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The fourth is a study which compared the two (but omitting to mention the conclusion – which was that they were unrelated and that there were considerable differences).

Add a note on that alleged conclusion, then. Include some quotations (and translations). Account in passing for the comparing of the two entities in the first place. -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The fifth is a personal opinion expressed by someone who positions herself as a Scientology expert, but who appears to have no particular knowledge of Landmark Eduation.

... but Mona Vasquez, whatever her background and knowledge, professed to recognizing extensive similarities... Once again, ask the question: why did a editors of a mass-media outlet see fit even to link the idea of Scientology and Landmark Education, let alone broadcast a suggestion of that link to an audience of millions? -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

And the sixth is a reference to someone who was actually stating that there was no connection!

Perhaps an example of balance and contradiction. We do that in Wikipedia sometimes to promote something we call the "Neutral point of View "(NPOV). -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Loaded language

All five references are merely quotes of opinions expressed by people of no particular expertise, in magazine and newspaper articles.

How many persons of expertise in the somewhat specialized field of "loaded language" need one seek out? And does publication of a mention of Landmark Education jargon in an august journal such as The Times carry any particular weight? -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Religious Implications

The section as it stands gives excessive weight to a handful of clergy who have voiced criticisms based on hearsay, rumour or speculation, relative to the large number who have gone on record giving positive accounts, based on personal observation. DaveApter 10:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Seek out and reference and quote those countervailing accounts, then. Don't complain on the talk-page: take action! -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

"Name changes" table

This strikes me as adding very little value to the article for the space it takes, and is actually misleading. Presumably the intention of it is to imply that this is a slippery operation which is always changing its colours? But the first two lines are entirely distinct companies with different ownership and product lines (but related - yes I know, and the point has already been made - several times). The next one is the name incorporated, and changed a week later - which is quite standard procedure. The next one was traded for four months before they had a re-think about it. The next one is not really a name-change at all, just a re-structure from an Inc to a LLC. So what? DaveApter 10:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, and I suggest the table be removed. Timb66 01:52, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Making change. Alex Jackl 23:22, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The table provided a valuable summary of the various forms in which the Landmark Education tradition operated. The dating militated against misleading. Speculation about the "intention" does not provide good grounds for suppression. -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Weasel-word-cleanup

I request editors take a look at what I did on the page- I did a cleanup of material and references that were non-notable or senteces that were full of weasel-words. FOr instance the section on Religion that inmplied some contraversy in the first semtemce and then followed by a bunch of references that merely imply some people were watching the organixzation and half the references being positive ones. And when list the positive references someone put in that these were "opinion as opposed to thoughtful theological analysis" implying the preceding references were more scholarly in some way. It doesn't go far enough as we can see in the above "Examination of Sources" section but I didn't want to be too bold too quickly. Better to slowly shift the article to NPOV and get agremeement than wholsale changes. Please let me know if anyone has any thought on those changes.Alex Jackl 02:08, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

"Positive" as to what? The minority-view that Landmark Education has some merit? That deserves a minor role in the article as well. -- Can one or can one not make a distinction between personal opinions and "thoughtful theological analysis", ever? if not, why not? If so, then why not here? -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I am happy with the changes made by AJackl, and with the discussion on this talk page that preceded them. I have just reverted the changes made by Pedant17 because some of them were not NPOV and because they were made without being discussed or noted on this talk page. I am new to Wikipedia editing so please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that editing a controversial page without discussion or an attempt to reach a consensus is not consistent with the policies. Timb66 12:18, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Timb66! In the spirit of the weasel-word alert and the above questions on "Examination of Sources" I am particular concerned about the recent change to "portrays" in reference to the charter of Landmark. That change is a highly particular one and makes me concerned we are dealing with a sock puppet. I think we should be careful that the cycle that started the edits wars before doesn't start happening again. I am perfectly willing to be wrong but it has been so great to have a community of editors working together to create a great article rather than a few holdouts desperately fighting a single-editor POV tsunami, and I don't want to lose the community that has emerged since the page was protected. Keep standing for the quality of WIkipedia Timb66- it is nice to meet you and be editing with you! Alex Jackl 12:35, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Reversion of edits -- especially edits already uncontroversially foreshadowed on the talk-page, by myself or by Tealwarrior -- does not constitute good Wiki-practice. See previous archived discussions in this Talk-page series. Restoration of each of the reverted edits for public exposure and specific discussion would show a better appreciation of the Wikipedia way, and would enrich the article's factual soundness and NPOV basis. -- Pedant17 03:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)