Talk:Julian Jaynes

Content Migration 12/20

Migrating the "theory" content from "Julian Jaynes" page to "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" as this has been suggested by others and is the standard across Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DRTZ212 (talk • contribs) 02:31, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

External links modified

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Controversy

I didn't make any changes to the article but I wanted to point out that the sentence in bold below is an unsourced opinion and not a fact so it doesn't belong in the article. If someone holds the opinion that something "is not now considered to be biologically probable" then they have a name or names or a source of some kind, I was under the impression that with Wikipedia articles shouldn't have completely unsourced claims or opinions.

Jaynes was a polymath genius, his book and theory is written in a way that some parts of it can be true without the entire theory being correct on every point. Even if the exact neurological process doesn't involve the right temporal cortex, for example, it doesn't mean the entire theory is wrong. Darwin was wrong on some details of his theories, but that doesn't mean that evolution isn't real.

In general, Jaynes is respected as a psychologist and a historian of psychology. The views expressed in The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind employ a radical neuroscientific hypothesis that was based on research novel at the time, and which is not now considered to be biologically probable.[citation needed] However, the more general idea of a "divided self" has found support from psychological and neurological studies, and many of the historical arguments made in the book remain intriguing, if not proven.[23] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akechi77 (talk • contribs) 23:34, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

The Theories

This article is mainly a bio. The theories need attention, but obviously should be expanded in other places in Wiki. Meanwhile, I intend to delete the current 2nd paragraph about "meta-consciousness" and "meta-awareness"... Jaynes tells us on chapter 1, page 1 that "consciousness of consciousness" is not what consciousness is... B.Sirota (talk) 17:11, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

As of 11/19, I hope the Theories section here in the bio will help. It still needs improvement, but not to be overdone. The 'Bicameralism' article is currently the only option to carry the bulk of 'J-con' and 'Bicamerality' and 'Vestiges'. B.Sirota (talk) 16:12, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Neutrality

I have not read anything written by Jaynes, but it seems that both this article and the one on bicameralism suffer from the same problems: the articles are mostly about The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind and seem to be biased. The reception section only talks about positive reception, and the criticism just talks about how the critics are wrong or have failed to understand his theory, with every critic being followed by some kind of explanation on why it is wrong. I am not from the field, but his idea seem to be far from the mainstream in psychology and this should be made clear in both articles. Even more, the sentence 'Rejection, of course, is not refutation' is completely absurd in the article, as this is an article an not a debate: if his work is rejected by the scientific community, this should be mentioned and not discussed. Vms42 (talk) 05:03, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

I think I can agree with you, partially, but not fully because I don't fully understand your POV complaints: editorial 'bias' might be a problem; but is a discussion of Jaynes's book really a problem in this article? (1) This biographical article would be pointless without some discussion of the book, although the book deserves a complete article to itself (the Bicameralism article is totally inadequate). I think the article makes very clear that different, even contradictory opinions exist about Jaynes's ideas. Concerning POV and balance, that should be enough. If you have evidence that his work is refuted, i.e. that his ideas have been proven false, I'd be happy to hear about it. Otherwise, I think POV is resolved.

(2) The sentence {'Rejection, of course, is not refutation'}, which you say is "absurd" (and have deleted), is perhaps unnecessary, although I think it states a simple truth that may not occur to every reader, and it follows from the direct quotation that preceded it. It is not an opinion about the quoted critic, nor an editor's correction of factual error in the quoted criticism. The direct quotation from that source is not an argument against anything Jaynes wrote, but is an argument that biases will lead people to 'accept' or 'reject' Jaynes's arguments. Even so, I don't protest your deletion if that satisfies your POV complaint.

(3) Perhaps biases have indeed had more influence than people think. There are notable sources who discuss the reaction to Jaynes and the debate about his ideas as an important topic in itself, including the assumption that Jaynes has somewhere, somehow been refuted, and the claim by his 'supporters' that his 'detractors' often make mistakes. So perhaps the editing problem is how to mention this "controversy" without it sounding like POV bias. Can we delete the POV? B.Sirota (talk) 13:22, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

I have the same impression in relation to the criticism section that is more about refuting criticism than presenting it... —PaleoNeonate – 05:08, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Agree with PaleoNeonate. This bio page isn't quite a hagiography, but it is very tilted toward praise. The lede rather presumptuously refers to his theory as a "solution" to a philosophical problem, rather than a PROPOSED solution, or similar qualification typically used for academic theories. It also refers to him as a "researcher" at Yale and Princeton, technically correct but glossing over the lack of PhD that probably kept him from a tenure track position at the latter university.

The Life section says he accepted a master's from Yale, but "refused" their PhD -- did he actually earn one? The only evidence for his alleged stance is a generic reference to Woodward and Tower's entire book, without a page number or direct quote.

The passionate defense by B.Sirota cuts both ways: sure, a major theory that has flaws is not disproven by details; on the other hand, a theory that has been largely superseded by neuroplasticity (see Michael Merzenich much of whose work was published after Jaynes died) might still be valuable in that it points to key topics that had been largely overlooked. Martindo (talk) 00:21, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, thoughtful, interesting and subtle. You point out that facts are missing, and indeed the current Wiki articles about Jaynes, his book, and his theories fall short of full, fair and accurate coverage. Editors are certainly to blame, myself included. The "criticism section", not being relevant, is gone from this "bio" article, so it's not clear where the 'tilting toward praise' is evident; if it's there, is it unwarranted?

A Wiki "bio" is biographical, but not a full biography: emphasis is normally on facts relevant to the person's notability; your concern seems to be about credibility, which might be relevant if there are notable issues that cast doubt on credibility. Would Jaynes's work be more respectable or would he seem more praiseworthy, if he flaunted his PhD? No doubt some readers think so.

You wonder whether he achieved PhD or not, and you say the article is 'glossing over' his 'lack of PhD'. Is it a significant absence, or just confusing? Jaynes did indeed earn and get PhD for his early research at Yale despite his objections to institutional emphasis on credentials. The facts can certainly be added for clarification and for substance.

Finally, the summary (in the bio) of Jaynes's theories does not do him justice. My evidence is your conclusion that 'neuroplasticity' theory in any way diminishes or "supersedes" Jaynes's psycho-historical theory. His book specifically argued for plasticity as a necessary component of the transition from ancient bicamerality to consciousness; but neuroplasticity alone does not touch the specific cultural and historical details that Jaynes theorized about. I have been working for some time on a major rewrite of the bicameral hypothesis because I don't think piecemeal edits can prevent or reduce misunderstandings. When I'm done, the other articles, I hope, might be improved. B.Sirota (talk) 15:00, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Move to The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind?

When a person is primarily known for one of their works, usually the redirect is towards that work. It's awkward that it's the other way around here. Almost the entirety of the article is about the book. As examples: The ==Jayne's Theory== section starts "In his book[...]", the beginning to ==Reception and influence== is "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, and the entirety of ==Controversy and criticism== is about the book. (Similarly, Bicameralism (psychology) could be merged in; it too is almost entirely about the book).

I don't want to be too bold here (it's a big change). Does anyone have any thoughts or objections? Xavexgoem (talk) 07:45, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

-- I completely agree with you, and I am implementing this change. DRTZ212 (talk) 05:58, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Edits by 216.106.53.90, 20Feb

‎ On 20 Feb./21, an editor wrote that Jaynes's four hypotheses are "mutually exclusive". If this editor knows what the phrase means, then either the edit is vandalism, or an explicit source should be cited and attributed as someone else's opinion. It certainly is not what Jaynes wrote. This editor's other changes are similarly unhelpful or just confusing, in my opinion. I am ready to revert most of the edits, unless someone offers a good reason not to. B.Sirota (talk) 06:36, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Category: American Zoologists?

Why is Jaynes in this category? The article mentions exactly nothing about any work he did in that field. IAmNitpicking (talk) 02:02, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

It needs to be made clearer that his overall hypothesis is WP:FRINGE

Our article is presently treating this subject and his work as if generally well-accepted science, when it is not. While certain aspects of his model have "inspired" later research into things like schizophrenia and auditory hallucinations, this research has not proven him correct about a "bicameral mind", nor has any research in any discipline shown that his broader notion of concsciousness developing only a few millennia ago is supportable by any evidence.

This WP:NPOV (especially WP:DUE) problem is present in both this bio article and the article on the book, The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. And these should probably re-merge (into the article on the book), since the person is not notable for anything other than the one book.

This WP:CFORKing into two article has doubled the maintenance burden and doubled the problematic PoV-pushing in support of Jaynes as a proper scientist and his idea as scientifically valid, while offering no benefit of any kind to our readers.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:19, 26 March 2024 (UTC); clarified 13:31, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: Many have said that, and I've asked them for sources, but they have been unable to provide them. I have searched myself, and while it is easy to source "controversial", I've not found any sources that explicitly call it "fringe". Skyerise (talk) 13:23, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Also, the theory deserves it's own article, as there are many sources that cite it. Though it is much more commonly referred to as "Bicameral mind" than the current title Bicameral mentality, my recent move proposal failed. Skyerise (talk) 13:26, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Um, virtually no sources anywhere ever literally call anything "fringe". It is largely a WP term (albeit adopted from the off-site phrase "fringe science", but that is not a technical term, it's an everyday-parlance term). We arrive editorially and internally at a decision that something is WP:FRINGE (or not) by means of a WP:DUE assessment of all the available reliable source material on the subject. And, yes, it certainly is very easy to find sources demonstrating that Jaynes' idea is "controversial" but there is nearly zero indication in either of these articles that this controvery exists or what it is about, and this bio article in particular is badly whitewashing and trying to hide the controversy and promote the viewpoint of his hero-worship organization. Just that fact that such a thing exists is a very bad sign.

Next, there is no such thing as "deserve" here; WP is not about passing value judgments on "importance" or "fame". It is entirely and only about WP:GNG, and there is virtually zero in-depth coverage of Jaynes in reliable, independent sources that is not primarily coverage of his book, so this erstwhile bio should merge to the book article, since the person is not notable for anything at all beyhond that specific work.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:31, 26 March 2024 (UTC)