Talk:James Cook

Culture

@Aemilius Adolphin The section is about culture that references Cook. If you believe the section constitutes WP:TRIVIA, then why are you reverting my single edit (which curiously does not even remove the content I added) and not removing other trivia-tier listed items such as the Australian slang phrase? And I will repeat what I said before, I seriously suggest you refrain from flippantly accusing users of engaging in commercial editing (a COI) without any basis. It is unproductive, needlessly unsympathetic, and shows a dearth of interest in the validity of your utterances. Οἶδα (talk) 07:14, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

The section is about Cook's enduring cultural legacy. You added information about a recently released song from a fringe band about the death of Cook. The reference was an article in a music website which included a promotional video from the band which is clearly promoting the band and the song. Of course, there is a fine line between news and product promotion in the entertainment media, and I would agree that the reference would be appropriate in an article about the band. But this is an article about James Cook. The question is, is this song part of Cook's enduring cultural legacy? We will only know in a decade or two's time. Perhaps it will sink without trace. Perhaps it will become a world wide hit and make the band rich and famous. In the later case, it might then be worth mentioning in an article about Cook. Otherwise the risk is that this section will turn into yet another Wikipedia trivia section listing a random collection of references to Cook in comic books, computer games, TV shows, music, etc. If you think other items in this section should be removed on the same grounds please make your case. Believe me, I will be all ears. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 07:35, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

In my experience, including a terse phrase like "Commercial promotion" in your edit summary will be interpreted by Wiki editors as a COI accusation and not within such a conception of promotional content. I also never actually disagreed on the point of the entry being on the fringes of trivia. I myself considered the very issue before adding the entry to the section, and was unimpressed by the preexisting state of it. It begins, in list form, with the vague and unsourced declaration that Cook has been the subject of "many" literary creations. A line break follows, and there is a mention of a poetical work with no identification of the actual work. The mention of Slessor's poem does not read as trivia. But a reference to an Australian slang phrase does. The Buzzfeed-tier CNN article may be right and it very well may be a common slang that I am simply unaware of, but is it? Or is it a trivial matter peripheral to Cook's enduring cultural legacy? Οἶδα (talk) 08:22, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the section is poor. When I get time I will have another look at the literature on Cook's cultural legacy and try to provide a concise overview. I started on it a year ago and was simply overwhelmed by the amount of material to work with. "Having a Captain Cook" is indeed an Australian slang term and I will try to find a more authoritative source for it. (The term is falling out of popular use though. I haven't heard anyone using it with a straight face in over twenty years.) Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 09:24, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Good to hear. I also realized I overlooked your above commentary about avoiding such sections that invite additions of trivia. Also, it may be interesting to mention Cook's depictions in visual art such as the many paintings depicting his death, including the reported historical revisionism. Οἶδα (talk) 19:12, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

"straight face", Aemilius: neither have I. Errantios (talk) 21:41, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Order of last paragraph in the lead

Some time ago I amended the end of the lead to read "Whilst there is controversy over Cook's role as an enabler of British colonialism and the violence associated with his contacts with indigenous peoples, he left a legacy of scientific and geographical knowledge that influenced his successors well into the 20th century, and numerous memorials worldwide have been dedicated to him." The object of this was to emphasise as a concluding point Cook's scientific/geographic influence and widespread acknowledgement through memorials. This has seemed to become accepted through time. I wonder what other editors think of this ordering? Could it be improved upon? Would it perhaps be better to place memorials/controversy in one sentence and scientific/geographic impact in another? I am wary that my edits in this regard came from a personal POV of what I felt should be elevated. Cheers, thorpewilliam (talk) 09:51, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

It looks ok to me. "Whilst" is a bit stiff and formal though. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 22:52, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 July 2023

60.241.194.196 (talk) 08:24, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Captain COOK died to magllen a Portuguese explorer in AUSTRALIA

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Recoil16 (talk) 10:48, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Vandalisation of Cook statues

Hello all

A few editors have added the same information about vandalisation of Cook statues in Melbourne under the Memorials section and the Controversy section. I have consolidated this information in the Controversy section because it most logically belongs there along with the paragraph about Cook's debated role in colonisation. I am also concerned that this article should not record every occasion when a statue of Cook is vandalised or Cook's name is mentioned in debates about colonialism. The article should be about the long term legacy of Cook rather than a collection of news items about political activism related to Cook: WP:NOTNEWS. I think the article aready already adequately covers similar protests.

Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 12:15, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the vandalism is part of one aspect of Cook's many faceted story. It needs to be mentioned, but not every time it happens. We are not a tabloid news service. HiLo48 (talk) 22:39, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes again, but what would be the criterion? In another context it was once agreed [1] that vandalism should be reported only when it constituted "irreparable damage". Maybe that is too restrictive: to prefer "structural damage" would include chopping down a metal artifact, which probably could and would be repaired but the item would likely be missing for several months. Recording structural damage should mention any other action, such as daubing paint, that explains the principal action—although, as in this case, it may be sufficient to leave detail to photos in the media links. Errantios (talk) 23:48, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I think you are missing the conflation of the ideas: Cook's first expedition was April-August 1770; however, people conflate this with the First Fleet (that got to Botany Bay ~16 January 1788, and then arrived in Port Jackson on 26 January, with the flag-raising taking place several weeks later. It was messy, then, and more so now! But, people don't get the difference. - Peter Ellis - Talk 02:22, 26 January 2024 (UTC)