User talk:Nightenbelle/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Advice needed

In view of your role in DRN I'm asking you how I should proceed with a content dispute on the article Perpetual Virginity of Mary. The problem from my perspective is that the other user won't engage in discussion on talk without being forced to do so by my reverting his edits - otherwise he just ignores me. This obviously isn't ideal. The time has come for some third-party mediation, but what would be appropriate? Achar Sva (talk) 23:44, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree with you that it is time to get more eyes on this. I would recomend WP:3O first- get another set of expert eyes on the page and get their opinion. THen, if that doesn't work, bring it to the WP:DRN, but definitely try another subject matter expert first. Nightenbelle (talk) 15:29, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

User:Achar Sva - Both Third Opinion and DRN are voluntary. I haven't yet read the history, but if you have an editor who does not discuss, 3O and DRN will not work. I suggest that you also read this essay on discussion failure. I seldom recommend WP:ANI, but editors who don't discuss may wind up at WP:ANI; just read the instructions on preliminaries first. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:20, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Racism

Thank you, and welcome back again. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:49, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't have a lot of time..... but I'm hoping this one will be relatively simple. Life has just been a giant freaking snowball. Nightenbelle (talk) 16:42, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

November 2021 backlog drive

New Page Patrol | November 2021 Backlog Drive
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Ultimate Warrior

The filing party threw a boomerang at a kangaroo that wasn't there. The filing party is lying motionless on the ground, and someone else can pick up the weapon and use it more wisely. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:42, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

One of the few times it was easy to pick up and return the boomerang to its proper kangaroo. :-)

Well, in this case I see that you assisted in the deflection of the boomerang. This was a bizarre case in that we were asked to block an administrator for issuing a valid block. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:07, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Maybe the user was the kangaroo. That would explain why they jumped into the middle of something silly. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:04, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Pavel Florensky

Hi, I saw that you were the second to revert my edit (see also user's talk page), but please note that in German Perspektive is the correct form. If you don't speak German, you might rather consider refraining from editing German content. Drkazmer ^{Just tell me...} 08:29, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I do actually speak German (admittedly at a quite basic level- but my Granny taught me enough to say sei nett zu anderen anyway)- so you might want to refrain from making snarky comments du kennst mich nicht. Had you left off the last sentence- you would have just got an "oh sorry, I'll fix that" Instead I say- du kennst mich nicht and WP:AGF and I'll roll back my change. Nightenbelle (talk) 14:16, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I am curious why the other editor got a very polite "Hey you did this and maybe you shouldn't have" and I got a rude notice. Why polite to one of us and rude to the other? Nightenbelle (talk) 18:44, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Because you're the second one doing the same rollback without checking the issue first. Drkazmer ^{Just tell me...} 19:59, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

THats still not an excuse to be rude. Nightenbelle (talk) 19:20, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Feedback request: History and geography request for comment

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Aha. You were polled by the robot on one of the RFCs left over from the dispute that I just failed after both of the editors reported each other to Arbitration Enforcement. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:29, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Yeah.... added my opinion to that growing snowball... Time to go see how the DRN is fairing this morning. Nightenbelle (talk) 14:04, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Raza Samo

Something weird seems to have happened at Raza Samo; you nominated it for deletion via Page Curation, but the page appears to not have been properly created. Right now, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Raza Samo is just a oneliner from the creator. AngryHarpy‍^talk 06:48, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

User:Nightenbelle, User:AngryHarpy - That looks like a tool failure. I have seen enough of them that I don't consider them "weird", only troublesome. User:Nightenbelle - Please provide your deletion rationale, and I will !vote Delete. If you prefer, I will make a deletion statement, but I would prefer to let the original tagger go ahead. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:05, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

The Game Changers

I thought that I had seen a controversy about that article before. I had. I found that I had mediated it in August 2021, and then was thinking about how to respond this time. The documentary film is largely about athletes, which I am not. However, then, unrelated to my thinking about that controversy, I thought it was time for my daily exercise. When I came back from the pool, I saw that you had closed it as one-against-many, and the only real choices had been between that and an RFC. But you are right that this was a case where moderated discussion was unlikely to do anything except restate viewpoints. Thank you. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:20, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

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MA edit

Hi there, I was wondering why you undid my update on the Memory Alpha article? I don't really understand how a link to the wiki the page is talking about in considered "inappropriate" or why an update of the page count is "unneccessary". Both seem relevant to the topic of the page. I added the link there to help people to get in contact with the relevant people on MA rather than the old founders who have nothing to do with the site anymore. This has caused some issues in the past and even relatively recent. 109.135.30.140 (talk) 17:12, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

I undid it because we are not the yellow pages. We do not exist to direct people how to get in contact with owners of niche webpages- nor do we direct them how to get in touch with the owners of any webpages other than WP itself. That is promotional and does not belong on WP. We give descriptions, we are an encyclopedia. If people want to get in contact with the owners- they should google "What is the phone number of the owner of this website" or something similar. Do you have a connection with this website? I ask because the one and only edit you made was to add the contact info for them, and to post here when that info was removed. Nightenbelle (talk) 19:24, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you (re. request for Saint Peter dispute resolution)

Hello Nightenbelle,

Thank you for your comments on my request for dispute resolution regarding the Saint Peter article. I am still getting my feet wet and was not aware of the WP:3O option; if I had been aware, I would have requested that instead, since despite its short length the discussion appears fully stalled.

Much appreciated, Fureto Fureto (talk) 19:47, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your participation in the November 2021 New Pages Patrol drive

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Thank you for reviewing or re-reviewing 38 articles, which helped contribute to an overall 1276-article reduction in the backlog during the drive. (t · c) buidhe 12:42, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

December 2021 GOCE Newsletter

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Hypocrisy much?

The fact that you repeatedly referred to the disruptive editing as a "consensus" shows you are not here arguing in good faith. The conversation did not "go stale," there was no one interested in discussing the issue in the first place, evidence of the lack of notability. I've been the one pleading with those two to discuss the issue instead of edit warring. If you have a problem with the edit war, take it up with those insisting on it instead of those insisting on discussion and finding a consensus. And I would implore you to discuss the issue instead of just going " I"m going to revert it to my preferred version and if you do anything about it I'll report you." I've reverted that section to how it was before I got involved in hopes that we can come to a solution instead of any more edit warring. Also, since the article is nominated for deletion- I would encourage you to instead contribute to that discussion and see how it plays out rather than continuing to edit war and threaten others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheSnowyMountains (talk • contribs) 18:40, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

The onus is on you to get consensus for the change. You have not done that. Two editors agree that it should stay. You disagree. Again- you can not like it all you want. I am an uninvolved 3rd party- I'm telling you- this will not go your way unless you change tactics- IE- try a WP:RFC. Arguing with me will not change the current consensus. They stopped discussing because the consensus was reached and nothing further needed saying. You disagree with the standing situation- fine- find more people to join the discussion. Don't keep reverting. You have been banned for a very similar situation before. If you continue down this road without changing directions- you will be in the same situation. And agressive behavior like that displayed on my talk page here- will not help your case. I've offered you suggestions. Take them or don't. If you continue your edit war- you will end up on the ANI. Nightenbelle (talk) 20:46, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Also- sign your posts with 4 tilde's please. and 2nd- I don't really give a damn if the blacklist is included or not- but I do give a damn about policy - policy says get consensus before you change. You have not. Next time you make that change without consensus- you will be taken to the ANI. Nightenbelle (talk) 20:50, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Just a friendly suggestion: I don't think the ping-pong match you both are engaging in at the ANI filing is helping either of your cases. I think it would be best to let other editors review the information and draw their own conclusions at this point. I'm not an admin and this isn't an order, just advice based on my own past experiences. Cheers. DonIago (talk) 15:38, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

After the last two crazy posts.... yeah- I'm done trying to reason with the unreasonable. Someone else can tackle the next mad rant they make on whatever page they decide to obsess over next. Sheesh. Not the worst [WP:IDHT]] I've seen at the DRN- but definitely in the top 10. Nightenbelle (talk) 16:00, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

I was about to say something similar to what User:Doniago said, to advise you to leave him alone and let him either dig his way out or dig deeper. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:18, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

He must have got a really amazing shovel for Chritsmas.... good lord. And wow- I'm sure popular- look at all the best friends I have..... that I've never met or talked to once. WOW. (/sarcasm) Nightenbelle (talk) 22:15, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

You probably saw that he has been indeffed. One admin expressed the opinion that he was probably a sockpuppet of some previously indeffed battlefield editor. Well, if he is back again, it will be as a sockpuppet, and we may never know who is who. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:40, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Feedback request: History and geography request for comment

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Most Recently Closed DRN Thread

Your close is as good as another. I have suggested that the English Wikipedia should provide links to the Help Desks for other language encyclopedias. We sometimes get nearly incomprehensible help requests that are about something that was done in some other language encyclopedia, and this seems to be one. There was a link to a page on the Hebrew Wikipedia, and I have no idea what it said except that it had recognizable CE years, and that it looked like Hebrew. As you probably know, Hebrew is written from right to left, and is written using an alphabet, and that is about what I know about it. (Greek and Russian are written from left to right, and are written using alphabets.) That was the only edit that editor had made. Maybe someone will help them on the Hebrew Wikipedia. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:08, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

I know just the smallest bit of Hebrew- had to study it a bit in college (went to a Christian School- we were required to minor in biblical studies) but certainly not enough to help or direct them. I wish I could. Nightenbelle (talk) 16:16, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

FYI (you too @Robert McClenon), [1]. Not much to be done, IMO. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:19, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Oh, and Killing of Barel Hadaria Shmueli. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:54, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I did ...

... come dangerously close? Well, please take me to ANI and make the case that Wikipedia values coldly polite POV pushers more than content creators who upon being hounded by a group occasionally lose their cool. Academics who have spent a lifetime thinking about precis writing are of no value. The thing though is I won't participate in my trial. I hope you manage to block me for a week, a month, perhaps a permaban. Give the lie to Jimbo's celebrated interview in the NY Times, "The Encyclopedist's Lair," whereupon being asked What is the Greatest misconception about Wikipedia, he replied, "We aren’t democratic. Our readers edit the entries, but we’re actually quite snobby. The core community appreciates when someone is knowledgeable and thinks some people are idiots and shouldn’t be writing." You won't have any problem garnering support for a ban. All the Hindu nationalist POV pushers, the India-POV pushers, have been waiting in the wings for years to drive me away. All the best, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:46, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Take the warning or don't. I don't get joy out of taking people to the ANI- and I don't have beef with you- I don't edit the same articles you do. I was giving you a warning to prevent you going to the ANI- It was not a threat that I would take you- but continue like you will, and someone is going to. Personally- I'd rather keep good editors, but problematic behavior detracts form knowledgeable content creation. Do what you will with it. But it is possible to be knowledgeable without being a dick. Nightenbelle (talk) 16:59, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

"it is possible to be knowledgeable without being a dick." Absolute gold, there. It's all lost on F&F. NebulaOblongata (talk) 19:22, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

User:Fowler&fowler - You are acting like an editor who knows almost as much as they think that they do. There was a period when Wikipedia was tolerant of "excellent content creators" who were habitually uncivil and whose ownership of articles was ignored. More recently such editors have been finding Wikipedia less friendly. If you are knowledgeable, you will learn from their examples. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:14, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

I am not being a dick. I am trying to suggest that you have no clue, and I mean none whatsoever, of the level of refined POV pushing prevalent on some South Asia-related pages. By refined I mean it is always polite, but does nothing but promote false and even dangerous perspectives. (There is a good reason ARBIPA sanctions exist.) Editors get banned. Mysteriously a week or two later others reappear with similar POV. Editors who create content, on the other hand, spend a huge amount of mental energy just getting the nuances right let alone patiently countering the POV. (See for example India alone. See how much engagement over how many years it has taken on the talk page to get it right.) I can off the top of my head ping here (if I wanted to) at least a dozen administrators who know my work who do not think I am habitually uncivil. You guys are falling for the surface chatter, you don't have the energy, nor probably the familiarity with the field, to delve into the deeper content issues which throw up these seeming disputes. Please think about that before you are holier than thou next time. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:21, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

since you don’t know me or Robert- you are not qualified to make that assumption. You being a jerk does not help the matter or your case. Ping who you want. Like I said- it was a warning do what you will with it- I’m going back to editing and mediating now. Nightenbelle (talk) 16:19, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Is "jerk" and "dick" civil? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:16, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

You're on my talk page- continuing to engage. TO be fair- I never actually called you a dick. I said it was possible to be knowledgeable without being one. If you felt guilt- that's on you. As for calling you a jerk- its an accurate description of your arrogance to come on my page and tell me I'm not qualified to judge NPOV content without you knowing a single thing about me. So.... if you don't like it- you are free to disengage and/or change your behavior. Your choice. Nightenbelle (talk) 01:54, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

I am disengaging all right, but just pointing out that you have given no evidence thus far on Wikipedia of knowing anything about the topic of Kashmir. It is a subject area in which more than a dozen books have been published in 2021 alone by the major academic publishers of the western world (Cambridge University Press, Oxford, Yale, Manchester ... all of which I have added to the article). You are proposing to tell someone who is the author of the FA India, Wikipedia's oldest country FA, now going on 17 years, and the principal author of Kashmir, British Raj, Company rule in India, Partition of India and a host of Kashmir-related articles that they are a dick and a jerk even if you are attempting now to circumvent the first description by verbal subterfuge. That defense won't stand on ANI, by the way. In the future, please don't make inaccurate judgments about me, let alone uncivil ones. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:19, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

I have yet to see a single inaccurate judgement about you that I have made. You just keep proving them right. You don’t want to be judged- stop judging others. Nightenbelle (talk) 16:20, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Feedback request: History and geography request for comment

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Singular They

An editor whose native language is not English shouldn't criticize the details of the use of the English language by an Anglophone American.

By the way, I notice that both SDC and Checco refer to exposing the rules for selection of political parties. They clearly mean providing an exposition of the rules. They aren't aware of the connotation in English, which is all right, but maybe they should realize that English has subtleties. I understand that Italian also has subtleties. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:07, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

meh. It’s a mess. I am fairly certain many subtleties are being ignored at this point. Nightenbelle (talk) 23:19, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Sorry about that! I seriously thought you were referring to me too, I am Italian and I don't understand all the subtleties. Obviously it was not my intention to criticize the details of the use of the English language, it has simply been a small misunderstanding. @Robert McClenon I would appreciate it if you were still available to mediate the discussion when I'll file it at Drn. I'm trying to understand which users are potentially interested, also contacting them on the talk pages. As soon as we have an acceptable number, I will send the request. In this case, I am here because I wanted to inform Nightenbelle about this.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 10:36, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

no worries. :-) Nightenbelle (talk) 16:19, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Feedback request: History and geography request for comment

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Feedback request: Language and linguistics request for comment

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Shakespeare Fantasy Case

I agree with you closing that dispute quickly as premature. I just wanted to comment that I think that editor may wind up being banned. There are a few more issues that you may have noticed (but didn't mention because you didn't need to). First, the filer is a self-promoting academic, and self-promoting academics have a long track record in Wikipedia of flaming out. Second, the topic area is subject to ArbCom discretionary sanctions, which make it easier for admins to ban disruptive editors. I will watch the topic area, but I don't expect that there will be mediation. It may be "interesting". Robert McClenon (talk) 04:35, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

By the way, I am calling it a Shakespeare fantasy case because that is my opinion of all of the authorship theories. There are multiple reasons that I am aware of that are not normally mentioned that indicate that there is only one person who could have written the Shakespeare plays, the actor from Stratford-on-Avon. Some of the strongest reasons to back up the obvious theory are not even usually mentioned, so the alternate theories are even sillier than we sometimes think. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:40, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

I did notice it was a self-promoting author who is already winding up to flame out- and I doubt he will take my suggestion to not edit that article to heart. As for the actual subject- I was an English major and high school English teacher back in the day- I ‘’’cared’’’ about the authorship issue deeply- until I realized it doesn’t matter. Written by a single actor from Stratford-upon-Avon or by 50’peoplr scattered across London- the language, humor, and psychological honesty make this collection of plays a truly inspired set and the most amazing literary accomplishment of any age. So now- I don’t care! Nightenbelle (talk) 13:28, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

You wrote: "I doubt he will take my suggestion". An editor who dislikes misgendering has misgendered Anna Faktorovich. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:08, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Feedback request: Language and linguistics request for comment

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Stupid Bot Issue

When closing a case as a general close, please insert 'closed' rather than 'Closed' in the status field. The bot is case-sensitive in recognizing it as a general close, and so thinks it is a new case after you have closed it. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:08, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

stupid bots. Will correct moving forward. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:38, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Feedback request: Language and linguistics request for comment

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What?

My edit was 100% constructive! Excuse me, why would you revert my edit?! ExpositionLaner2835 (talk) 16:42, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

As I said in the edit summary- it was not a grammatic improvement. Nightenbelle (talk) 16:48, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Hey!

Stop reverting my edits! ExpositionLaner2835 (talk) 16:52, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Stop making bad edits. Nightenbelle (talk) 16:58, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

The sockpuppet has been stopped from making bad edits. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:21, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

ANI notice

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is My edits on David II of Scotland were reverted by another user!. Thank you. It was started by the user above. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 16:55, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Already saw it. Thanks though :-) Nightenbelle (talk) 16:57, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Democracy Docket

The revisions you just undid were to fix erroneous changes. Democracy Docket (DemocracyDocket.com) is a news site. Someone edited it based on a recent article that mentioned a project (Democracy Docket Legal Fund) of a different entity. I just want the wikipedia entry to correctly refer to the news site and not the Hopewell fund project. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.56.69.166 (talk) 18:31, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

All changes need to not sound like an advertisement for the subject. Do you have a wp:coi with the subject? Nightenbelle (talk) 18:36, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

I went back and checked- and now I am convinced you do have a COI. Democracy Docket is literally a voter advocate group who likes to think its blog is an actual news site- but its extremely biased. So I would suggest you not edit that page any more. Nightenbelle (talk) 18:42, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

There is definitely a WP:COI situation going on here, and there has been for some time at both Democracy Docket and Marc Elias. Either Elias and/or his associates have been editing the pages. I don't know if this should be brought to a noticeboard or what, but it's very obvious and very unencyclopedic. Marquardtika (talk) 20:23, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Maybe.... maybe COI noticeboard, maybe just AFD them both. Maybe ask for protection on both. ... still kinda debating- if you have a preference or suggestion- I'm open to it! Nightenbelle (talk) 20:25, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Marc Elias Supreme Court Cases

Ah, pardon me, in your haste to delete stuff, you removed the 3 cases that had the correct citations to Mr. Elias arguing them. Please look at the citations https://www.oyez.org/cases/2016/15-1262 and you will notice on the right side of the page the text " Marc E. Elias for appellees " etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DoryGuy (talk • contribs) 22:05, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

For Cooper vs Harris https://www.oyez.org/cases/2015/14-1504 text: " Marc E. Elias for the private appellees "

For Bethune-Hill v. Virginia State Bd. of Elections text: "Marc E. Elias for appellants"

I'm restoring the cases and the links that you inadvertently removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DoryGuy (talk • contribs) 22:37, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Confused.

Hi, thanks for your reply, on the [[2]]. As you closed the dispute and did not give me chance to reply - I will reply here.

1. You are using WP:SYNTH to come to a conclusion that is not clearly stated in WP:RS

No, I am not trying to do that. You say that it is WP:SYNTH, but I am not asking to combine material and made the conclusion. Both secondary sources (https://referenceworks.brillonline.com/) and primary source Jean Chardin into Persia explicitly state information on their own, without the need to combine them. Why this should not be at least mentioned in the article? Even if we drop primary source, secondary source is providing clear conclusion.

I still do not understand why provided the primary source and secondary sources do not count. Are they so unreliable, that they can not be mentioned even in-line? Besides, the current article mostly refers to the https://iranicaonline.org as a source, why this source is acceptable/reliable, but https://referenceworks.brillonline.com/subjects is not?

2. consider this your second warning

I really shocked, I am the one who is accused and I am the one who gets a "final warning". Is it how it should work?

1. The user LouisAragon [[3]] on the talk page replied with direct accusations. I did not accuse him, just let him know how things that he wrote looked to me and asked him to stop that.

2. Another example, you closed the dispute with the comments part of which has no connection to the dispute, but isn't it an accusation of me in nationalistic editing and threatening me with ANI? How nationality is related? Consensus will be reached either to include or not to include provided sources. Why is everyone dropping the main subject of discussion and focusing on nationality?

Does not the above two fall under WP policy [WP:ASPERSIONS] and [WP:NPA] either?

P.S. I'm not trying to push my agenda, I am trying just to understand. The above things, which I wrote, I am doing with all respect to you and the work you did.

--Abrvagl (talk) 20:03, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

In regards to number 1- the first source you gave me does not say that the area north of the river- so does not support your claim in any way shape or form. For the second source- the primary one- primary sources cannot be used to support controversial additions except in very rare circumstances- and this addition is obviously controversial. If multiple secondary sources say one thing and a single primary source says something different- mentioning what the single primary source says in WP:UNDUE. that is the case here. Secondary sources take priority. The first source-= the encyclopedia- you provided is also, not a secondary source- it is a Tertiary source- like WP itself. A tertiary source presents a summary of what other sources, usually secondary, say about a topic. Meaning it can be used, but will be given less weight than secondary sources (see WP:TSF). As to the 2nd question you had- Warning you of being taken to the ANI- is not an aspersion- it is a clear and direct warning that you are in danger of being reported- Its actually me trying to be helpful and give you yet another opportunity to change your ways. And accusing you of nationalistic editing is fully supported by your editing history- focusing only on adding a specific POV to articles relating to a single nationality. I checked your contributions as I do pretty much anyone who files at the DRN. Its only an aspersion if I am making an accusation unjustly- if you would like, I will retract the warning and instead take you to the ANI now as a WP:NOTTHERE- it won't be the first time you have had to defend your actions there. You don't appear to be making much progress on learning the correct way to collaborate with your fellow editors. Perhaps you should walk away from this genre and edit something you feel a bit less passionately about. What is not going to happen is further debate here. You opened a DRN, I closed it, this conversation has reached its conclusion. Nightenbelle (talk) 20:24, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

User:Arvbaq1 - I came to User talk:Nightenbelle to state that I agreed with her closure of the dispute. I still agree with her. I won't add anything at this time unless she or you add anything (and then I may or may not). Robert McClenon (talk) 21:19, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Nightenbelle, thanks for comprehensive explanation. Robert McClenon Thanks for professionally sharing your view, I highly appreciate that.

Nightenbelle, I did not mean to debate, It is more like conversation to understand decision. I will bring screenshoots of the page from Encyclopaedia of Islam. There more details and references to sources, and I just want to know your opinion on that, if it is still not counts as reliable source?

https://ibb.co/nszLXwd

https://ibb.co/7yFjrrf

P.s. honestly, im not an nationalistic editor. Im editing only for few weeks, and the only aim of mine is to improve articles. Im doing edits when on my free time and I physically cannot focus on more than 2-4 articles, because im also spending time to find and read the sources (which is time consuming). Should I not do edits on the articles about which Im reading and doing my own research only because that others will see something negative in that? I mean if I propose something valid and which will improve article, does nationality staff really matter? --Abrvagl (talk) 23:49, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

up to now your edits have been in areas highly edited by editors from the area who traditionally seek to put their nationalist pov in. The information you have added is the same type they try to add with the same low quality sources they use. That is not adding value. Before you edit again - read all of wp:rs to understand what exactly we need from a source. And yes- I would recommend until you get the hang of editing you stay away from pages that have political conflict associated with them that also happen to be related to the region you live. After you prove your competence and that you are truly here to build and improve this encyclopedia- people will be less likely to assume you are yet another nationalistic troll. I hope you mean what you say and you are here to collaborate and add to this project- but, for now, you need to move off this subject- you are not editing it well or fairly at this time. Nightenbelle (talk) 00:59, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

I guess you are right. I will finish discussions on the proposed edits which I already stared and move for a while to the articles which not such stressful and has political conflict potential. You right there is already ANI on me, but I found this ani more political and try to block me, rather than rational. For example there even wa try to falsely accuse in order to get me blocked: User Kevo327 accusations that I allegedly logged out of my account and deleted some information from the article is aslo WP:WIAPA.

But anyways, thanks for spending your time to explain! Have a good day! --Abrvagl (talk) 05:20, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Passion is not a bad thing- but it does lead to bias editing. From what I can see from your contributions- you have not been editing according to what the majority of secondary sources say. It seems like you have felt your preferred point of view has not been receiving enough focus so you find 1 or 2 sources to support you and add it. Unfortunately- when there are 1000 sources that say one thing- and 2 that say another- The neutral thing to do is focus on the perspective with 1000 sources at the exclusion of the 2 sources. Giving those 2 sources as much attention as the 1000 is not equitable and makes it seem that those two sources are more valuable than the 1000- when, in reality, 1000 > 2. Its frustrating I know- but its how we stay neutral. Now- when its more equal- like 800 vs 300, we can add a sentence about the other perspective-but only a sentence. We do not exist to cover every single perspective. That's not our purpose. Our purpose is a brief overview. There are areas I avoid editing because I am too passionate. I know I cannot be neutral enough to be fair- so I just stay away. Sometimes that is best. Nightenbelle (talk) 14:31, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

I got it and agree with the approach. So I'm closing the dispute and won't return to it unless new sources float to the surface. All the best to you! --Abrvagl (talk) 18:22, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Fairmont Senior High School page

Nightenbelle, you rollbacked multiple edits I made to the page, which are all sourced. The claim that "the high school was an all-white school until the 1950s" is sourced in the "History" section of the page. I can easily source that, but could you please undelete all my edits, which are sourced? NaturalSoundsYEAH! (talk) 18:54, 10 February 2022 (UTC) All you have to do is add the sources. That's all I'm asking. I can't restore an edit unless it is sourced- so I'm sorry, you need to re-add the information including a source for the controversial edits. Nightenbelle (talk) 19:02, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Okay, thank you. NaturalSoundsYEAH! (talk) 19:55, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

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WP:AFC Helper News

Hello! I wanted to drop a quick note for all of our AFC participants; nothing huge and fancy like a newsletter, but a few points of interest.

• AFCH will now show live previews of the comment to be left on a decline.
• The template {{db-afc-move}} has been created - this template is similar to {{db-move}} when there is a redirect in the way of an acceptance, but specifically tells the patrolling admin to let you (the draft reviewer) take care of the actual move.

Short and sweet, but there's always more to discuss at WT:AFC. Stop on by, maybe review a draft on the way? Whether you're one of our top reviewers, or haven't reviewed in a while, I want to thank you for helping out in the past and in the future. Cheers, Primefac, via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:00, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

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Draft:Vict0ny

Hey!!! Really need your help here. Kindlly check out this draft article I wrote, Draft:Vict0ny. I'd really like some feedback on what to do better and if it's good enough as it is. If there are things i could do to make it bettter, I'd like your feedback on that as well. Thank you so much Olakunle Rufai (talk) 14:08, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

After Exploitation

I was planning to decline it as promotional advocacy. Do you think the organization itself is notable? Most reviewers, I'd just send to AfD, but when you & I disagree, I want to check. DGG ( talk ) 04:55, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

I do think it is notable in and of itself- borderline, but notable.... however its current state is pretty promotional. I was pretty on the fence about this one- but ... I don't know. Its one that if I read on a different day I might have sent back to the drawing board to tone down the promotion, I just really feel on the fence about it. Nightenbelle (talk) 15:15, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

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GOCE April 2022 newsletter

Guild of Copy Editors April 2022 Newsletter Hello and welcome to the April newsletter, a brief update of Guild activities since December 2021. Election results: Jonesey95 retired as lead coordinator. Reidgreg was approved to fill this role after an 18-month absence from the coordinator team, and Baffle gab1978 was chosen as an assistant coordinator following a one-year break. Dhtwiki, Miniapolis and Tenryuu continued on as long-standing assistant coordinators. January Drive: Of the 22 editors who signed up, 16 editors claimed 146 copy edits including 45 requests. (details) February Blitz: This one-week effort focused on requests and a theme of Africa and African diaspora history. Of the 12 editors who signed up, 6 editors recorded 21 copy edits, including 4 requests. (details) March Drive: Of the 28 editors who signed up, 18 claimed 116 copy edits including 25 requests. (details) April Blitz: This one-week copy editing event has been scheduled for 17–23 April, sign up now! Progress report: As of 11 April, copy editors have removed approximately 500 articles from the backlog and completed 127 copy-editing requests during 2022. The backlog has been hovering at about 1,100 tagged articles for the past six months. Thank you all again for your participation; we wouldn't be able to achieve what we have without you! Cheers from your GOCE coordinators Reidgreg, Baffle gab1978, Dhtwiki, Miniapolis and Tenryuu To discontinue receiving GOCE newsletters, please remove your name from our mailing list.

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Sayre School District

As you have probably seen, it is now at WP:ANI including my summary. It looks like a case where an administrator was out of line and is slowly apologizing. At least, that is what I think. I am going to my daily swim workout, and will be back in a few hours. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:27, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Well, as you can see, the conclusion was, as I thought, that an administrator was out of line and has been cautioned. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:23, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Italian Political Parties

Well, as you may have seen, other editors have taken the case to WP:ANI, and I have thrown out the idea of topic-banning both of them for three months. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:23, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

FFS. heading over there now. If they are topic banned- maybe those of us not emotionally invested can actually clean that mess up without fighting those two. Nightenbelle (talk) 19:37, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

New Page Patrol newsletter May 2022

New Page Review queue March 2022

Hello Nightenbelle,

At the time of the last newsletter (No.26, September 2021), the backlog was 'only' just over 6,000 articles. In the past six months, the backlog has reached nearly 16,000, a staggering level not seen in several years. A very small number of users had been doing the vast majority of the reviews. Due to "burn-out", we have recently lost most of this effort. Furthermore, several reviewers have been stripped of the user right for abuse of privilege and the articles they patrolled were put back in the queue.

Several discussions on the state of the process have taken place on the talk page, but there has been no action to make any changes. The project also lacks coordination since the "position" is vacant.

In the last 30 days, only 100 reviewers have made more than 8 patrols and only 50 have averaged one review a day. There are currently 805 New Page Reviewers, but about a third have not had any activity in the past month. All 851 administrators have this permission, but only about a dozen significantly contribute to NPP.

This means we have an active pool of about 450 to address the backlog. We cannot rely on a few to do most of the work as that inevitably leads to burnout. A fairly experienced reviewer can usually do a review in a few minutes. If every active reviewer would patrol just one article per day, the backlog would very quickly disappear.

If you have noticed a user with a good understanding of Wikipedia notability and deletion, do suggest they help the effort by placing {{subst:NPR invite}} on their talk page.

If you are no longer very active on Wikipedia or you no longer wish to be part of the New Page Reviewer user group, please consider asking any admin to remove you from the list. This will enable NPP to have a better overview of its performance and what improvements need to be made to the process and its software.

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Daniel Lee

Heja, I asked you for help with the Daniel Lee page ages ago and now it seems that people are deleting important contextual information to drown the information. I fixed it, but am worried that without a lock company propaganda will continue and am more convinced than ever that the last incursion was actually a Botega Venetta Employee. The totally deleted all information from Botega Venetta, so I readded it there once more, I expect it will quickly evolve into another edit war, it seems Botega really cares about it's image in Wiki. talonx77.13.166.64 (talk) 18:42, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

I also contacted the person who tried to reveal my geolocation to bring them into the discussion again, this was a part of their edit war last time too. talonx77.13.166.64 (talk) 19:01, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

I'll take a look. Nightenbelle (talk) 19:08, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

barnstar

A mug cake

A butterfly cake

Cbinetti

Just checking to be sure you know he has had talk page access removed as part of his indefinite block. Doug Weller talk 13:45, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Nope. Didn't even realize he had an indef. Sigh. Oh well- he could have been a great addition- if he could have taken some accountability. Nightenbelle (talk) 14:21, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Maybe. He's said that is his real name and he's described himself, so I'm guessing he is [4][5][6]. Doug Weller talk 14:25, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Oh now I'm hungry. Tempted to make a mug cake. Or use my Ghirardelli mug cake mix. Doug Weller talk 14:26, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

A user attempted, I think- to give me the mug cake and butterfly cupcake as a barnstar- but yes, it makes me hungry every time I come to my own talk page. I must say, I'm surprised that someone who publishes such controversial things in much more public spaces has not yet learned how to take criticism without imploding. Or does every person who disagrees with their opinion article also commit the sin of persecution of handicapped catholic Italians? Sigh. As another neurodivergent, I find it frustrating when people use theirs as a crutch- or a reason for demanding special treatment- its sets all of us back. Nightenbelle (talk) 14:41, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. That he was upset and yet publishes such clearly controversial material elsewhere, he either that a thin skin or more likely was just trying to get sympathy. And use it as a club at ANI of course. Doug Weller talk 15:16, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

June GOCE newsletter

Guild of Copy Editors June 2022 Newsletter Hello and welcome to the June 2022 newsletter, a quarterly digest of Guild activities since April 2022. Don't forget you can unsubscribe at any time; see below. Blitz: of the 16 editors who signed up for our April Copy Editing Blitz, 12 completed at least one copy-edit, and between them removed 21 articles from the copy-editing backlog. Barnstars awarded are here. Drive: 27 editors signed up for our May Backlog Elimination Drive; of these, 20 copy-edited at least one article. 144 articles were copy-edited, and 88 articles from our target months August and September 2021 were removed from the backlog. Barnstars awarded are here. Blitz: our June Copy Editing Blitz, starting at 00:01, 19 June and closing at 00:59, 25 June (UTC), will focus on articles tagged for copy edit in September and October 2021, and requests from March, April and May 2022. Barnstars awarded will be posted here. Progress report: As of 07:12, 14 June 2022 (UTC), GOCE copyeditors have completed 209 requests since 1 January and the backlog stands at 1,404 articles. Election news: Nominations for our half-yearly Election of Coordinators continues until 23:50 on 15 June (UTC), after which, voting will commence until 23:59, 30 June (UTC). All Wikipedians in good standing (active and not blocked, banned, or under ArbCom or community sanctions) are eligible and self-nominations are welcomed. Thank you all again for your participation; we wouldn't be able to achieve what we have without you! Cheers from your GOCE coordinators Reidgreg, Baffle gab1978, Dhtwiki, Miniapolis and Tenryuu To discontinue receiving GOCE newsletters, please remove your name from our mailing list.

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:39, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

DRN Closures

Are we both being a little unpleasant today? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:43, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Were there three absurd cases that needed closing today? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:43, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Well, you could say four cases in two days, but the European colonization of the Americas case was closed concisely, and there really would have been a content dispute if the editor hadn't flamed and insulted other editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:03, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

I didn't feel unpleasant- was I? I felt stern and blunt.... but I was't actually trying to be unpleasant. If I was.... well if I was it was kinda appropriate- but I didn't intend to be. Nightenbelle (talk) 21:16, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes. Stern and blunt, not inappropriately. I am sure that any of the three closures would be unpleasant for the filing party. In each case, they brought it sort of on themselves. I was about to close the tagging dispute differently, but also bluntly, and I don't disagree with your closure. I would have closed it by saying that all tagging disputes are essentially stupid, and that they should be resolved by doing something rather than arguing over the tagging. In the case of a notability tag, if the tag is disputed, either send it to AFD, or remove the tag. As I said, any of the three closures would seem unpleasant for the filing party. And racism is racism, whether it is by Asians or against Asians. I think that the real problem with an older White male marrying a young attractive Asian trophy wife is not racism but sexism, which doesn't depend on the races of the couple, but that is only my opinion. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:30, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

except the filing editor was saying the women were marrying the white men as trophy husbands- which I had not heard of…. But it’s possible I guess Nightenbelle (talk) 02:15, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Oh yes. That is a different spin, still sexist and racist, to blame the women for finding trophy husbands. Yuck.

The Gary Wilson case is really bizarre. They seem to have been some sort of troll or trolls operating sockpuppets. They have been blocked, not for edit-warring, but as sockpuppets. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:41, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I hadn't seen the Gary Wilson case.... what the heck? Is it a full moon this week or something? Odd. Weeks of few cases, boring cases even (not complaining) and then BOOM- 3 or 4 wild cases back to back to back. Nightenbelle (talk) 12:57, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, full moon. And see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/OwDOnimEDGENiORmyTErentea. (Don't try to type it in. Just click on it.) Those sockpuppets with those bizarre names were arguing over the Gary Wilson dispute. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:43, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

That is bizzaro. Full moon and summer vacation in America- lots of kiddos home with very little to do and even less adult supervision on computers. Nightenbelle (talk) 15:57, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Happy Birthday!

Thank you!

Byrd Dewey Case

I read the Teahouse discussion. You could have said, "But wait! There's more. It gets worse!" The question is whether Flahistory needs to be blocked for a combination of conflict of interest, article ownership, and competency concerns. I will think about that this evening after doing more important things, such as swimming, and reading the Bible publicly. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:42, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Yeah….. it’s my birthday weekend. I don’t have time for a trip to ani- too busy wallowing in self-pity at turning 40. Nightenbelle (talk) 22:07, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Feedback request: History and geography request for comment

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New Page Patrol newsletter June 2022

New Page Review queue June 2022

Hello Nightenbelle,

Backlog status

At the time of the last newsletter (No.27, May 2022), the backlog was approaching 16,000, having shot up rapidly from 6,000 over the prior two months. The attention the newsletter brought to the backlog sparked a flurry of activity. There was new discussion on process improvements, efforts to invite new editors to participate in NPP increased and more editors requested the NPP user right so they could help, and most importantly, the number of reviews picked up and the backlog decreased, dipping below 14,000 at the end of May.

Since then, the news has not been so good. The backlog is basically flat, hovering around 14,200. I wish I could report the number of reviews done and the number of new articles added to the queue. But the available statistics we have are woefully inadequate. The only real number we have is the net queue size.

In the last 30 days, the top 100 reviewers have all made more than 16 patrols (up from 8 last month), and about 70 have averaged one review a day (up from 50 last month).

While there are more people doing more reviews, many of the ~730 with the NPP right are doing little. Most of the reviews are being done by the top 50 or 100 reviewers. They need your help. We appreciate every review done, but please aim to do one a day (on average, or 30 a month).

Backlog drive

A backlog reduction drive, coordinated by buidhe and Zippybonzo, will be held from July 1 to July 31. Sign up here. Barnstars will be awarded.

TIP – New school articles

Many new articles on schools are being created by new users in developing and/or non-English-speaking countries. The authors are probably not even aware of Wikipedia's projects and policy pages. WP:WPSCH/AG has some excellent advice and resources specifically written for these users. Reviewers could consider providing such first-time article creators with a link to it while also mentioning that not all schools pass the GNG and that elementary schools are almost certainly not notable.

Misc

There is a new template available, {{NPP backlog}}, to show the current backlog. You can place it on your user or talk page as a reminder:

Very high unreviewed pages backlog: 13839 articles, as of 00:00, 29 November 2024 (UTC), according to DatBot

There has been significant discussion at WP:VPP recently on NPP-related matters (Draftification, Deletion, Notability, Verifiability, Burden). Proposals that would somewhat ease the burden on NPP aren't gaining much traction, although there are suggestions that the role of NPP be fundamentally changed to focus only on major CSD-type issues.

Reminders

• Consider staying informed on project issues by putting the project discussion page on your watchlist.
• If you have noticed a user with a good understanding of Wikipedia notability and deletion, suggest they help the effort by placing {{subst:NPR invite}} on their talk page.
• If you are no longer very active on Wikipedia or you no longer wish to be part of the New Page Reviewer user group, please consider asking any admin to remove you from the list. This will enable NPP to have a better overview of its performance and what improvements need to be made to the process and its software.
• To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.

Notes

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 10:01, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

hi sorry to bother you can you check my draft ? thank you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Sina_alam Kiava (talk) 21:23, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

While You Were Camping

or whatever, out of touch with the Internet.

There have been eight DRN cases, of which three were opened for mediation, and five were closed without being opened. Of the three open cases, one was closed as abandoned by the filing party, who didn't follow up and provide details. (That annoyed me.) One I closed as failed because the other editor has reported the filing editor as a sockpuppet. One is awaiting statements.

Of the five that were closed without being opened, two were closed for inadequate discussion, one for inadequate discussion and other defects, one for other defects, and one for being an overall mess. I may update this in the future. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:47, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Is it standard procedure to shut-down moderated discussion of content when one editor accuses another editor he disagrees with of being a sock-puppet? If so, then I guess it can't be helped. I left a note on the DRN talk page anyway including the paragraphs that were requested. I hope moderated discussion can continue soon... 50.45.170.185 (talk) 05:55, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Hey Robert- sorry, we moved Saturday, I wasn't sure when I would have internet access set up at the new house- but surprise- I do now. I'm sorry its been a mess over at DRN. I'm here now- and all I'm doing is unpacking- so lots of time to help out between boxes. Now- IP User- yes, it is standard proceedure to shut down DRN once behavior issues are brought up. As is CLEARLY stated MULTIPLE times on the page and when a volunteer opens, or closes, the dispute- we handled content issues only- behavior issues belong on another board. Also- we do not handle cases that are also open on other boards- so if you accuse someone of sock-puppetry- we assume either- you are going to open a case at the appropriate board, or you can't read the rules and are going to keep using personal attacks to slow the process down and shut down the DRN board. I'm not saying you did that- because I have no idea what's been going on since I've been away- I'm using the general "You" to indicate a person who would do that. If someone is accusing you of sockpuppetry and NOT opening a case- I would get an admin to advise you on how to proceed (assuming you are not in fact a sock puppet- if you are a sock puppet- go away you're breaking rules.)... Again- I'm using the generic you- not you personally IP user- because I have no clue what is going on. Nightenbelle (talk) 13:47, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that DRN was a mess. It is just that the cases that we had to dismiss were more messed up than usual, but that didn't make more work in closing them; it just made them differently stupid. The two cases that I closed after opening are a different matter. In one case I have no idea why it was filed if the filer wasn't going to make a statement. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:13, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

NPP July 2022 backlog drive is on!

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Icertis

I am unfortunately not really surprised that the dispute fizzled out. It seems that much of the problem is that two of the editors do not like each other, and are being civil but are not working effectively. There may be some history between Kvng and Hipal of which I am not aware; I don't know. The other problem is that it appears to have been largely a tagging dispute, and tagging disputes are essentially stupid. There shouldn't a quarrel over whether to remove a tag, but over whether the article should be improved, and if so how. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:36, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

I wonder whether they are going to attempt an RFC, or discuss effectively, or discuss ineffectively. I don't wonder that hard. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:36, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Yeah.... I can see both sides on this one- but it seems that it would be a simple dispute- the side that believes the tag should be left on should generate a list of what needs to be done (specifically) before it can be removed. And the other side should do those items they don't have a problem with, and then both discuss items they differ on. Simple. They are making it a big deal for no reason. Nightenbelle (talk) 19:45, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm trying to advocate for a COI editor who is respecting our policies and has given productive suggestions but is not being given any respect by Hipal. I don't have a history with Hipal but I do take issue with a sentiment that all declared COI contributions are garbage. ~Kvng (talk) 21:10, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm concerned that this advocating for a COI editor is being done without a good understanding of the relevant policies. The comments like I do take issue with a sentiment that all declared COI contributions are garbage are disruptive. I never said anything remotely like that, nor demonstrated it. Quite the opposite, but perhaps not in the discussions for this specific article. Then there's but is not being given any respect, which is worse. --Hipal (talk) 18:00, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

wasn’t gonna comment on this…. But since you two decided to jump on a conversation between me and another editor… Hipal as an outside observer- you have not been showing the coi editor respect at all. They have made numerous suggestions which you dismiss and they have asked you multiple times for specific concerns and you don’t provide them. I agree- the article still sounds promotional- but you should be guiding them- not blocking their attempts to improve it. Like I said- I wasn’t gonna get into it- but you came to my talk page- so you get my two cents now. I’ve done closed the case- my neutrality requirement has expired. And- should it be re-opened, I’ll gladly recuse myself now that I have been allowed the luxury or an opinion. Nightenbelle (talk) 19:18, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

We disagree. I've provided specific concerns. If you'll identify anything that I've written that shows disrespect on my part, I'll refactor it and apologize. --Hipal (talk) 19:44, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Just popping in here to thank User:Robert McClenon and User:Nightenbelle for their interest in helping resolve this dispute. I agree that this has gotten somewhat out of hand. User:Nightenbelle's comment above describes my frustrations pretty well. I have been trying to better understand the specific steps that need to be taken in order to align the Icertis page with Wikipedia's content standards, but have not received clear guidance.

With respect to the DRN thread, I apologize for not contributing swiftly enough. I wasn’t sure if it was best practice for me to participate. I would be happy to offer my perspective if the discussion was reopened. Alternatively, if either User:Robert McClenon or User:Nightenbelle believe there's a better forum at which to sort this thing out, I can chime in there.

In general, I don't want to editorialize too heavily on the nature of this dispute, given my COI status, but I am available to answer questions and clarify the details of my involvement, as needed. I want to help however I can to move this process toward a resolution. Icertis Laura (talk) 21:02, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Hipal, well, since you asked..... lets start with [[7]] where you make up a definition of promotional entirely unsupported by any WP policy. Thats bizzare and I would love an answer to where you got that definition- link please- not just an opinion. Next- how about the fact that 2 non-employee accounts agreed that the article sourcing is fine and it does not sound promotional. Thats a consensus- yet you refuse to allow the tag to be removed or WP:DROPTHESTICK- why? Again- please link to the policy that is supporting your actions, not just your opinion- because we edit according to policy- not opinions here. Third- in this edit- [[8]] you mention MANY undeclared SPAs. Please list your suspected COI accounts on the COI noticeboard- since MANY implies more than the 2 that were explained by the declared COI account and apologized for. Failure to do that is WP:Casting_aspersions and is generally considered WP:Personal attack- although you don't name names so.... skirting that rule. On June 29th you remove adequately sourced information because you don't like it- [[9]] Again- if there is another reason- please link the policy supporting you. Ask Kvng stated- this information is typically in articles about start ups- so what is wrong with it in this article? (Notice I am ignoring anything supported only by the COI editor- while I happen to think they have done admirably balancing their COI with improving the article- for the sake of this discussion- I'm going to focus on only issues other non-COI editors have seen with your editing of this page. Next- please explain how this edit [[10]] is in any way constructive or moving towards a compromise? In your next edit- [[11]] You then accuse Kvng of having a COI- or why would you want to bring them to the COI noticeboard? Again- without proof- that is WP:ASPERSIONS- and that is certainly disrespectful- so you might want to strike that. As for them calling you disagreeable- you literally just commented "We continue to disagree" with nothing more. So yeah- that's disagreeable. You disagree.....consistently. And finally- here [[12]] you state you intend to WP:Forum shop until you get your way. All of this is concerning behavior- I'm sure you can see that. Its not quite reportable to the ANI.... yet- but I would strongly recommend you work with your fellow editors and make some concessions and respect WP:CONCENSUS. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:23, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to do this.

I'm having some difficulties with your diffs, so I'll repeat to ensure we're talking about the same thing.

First [13]: How is this disrespectful to anyone? Second, it's based upon NOT and POV: NOTNEWS, SOAP. If you'll look at my comments and edit summaries, you'll see I brought up NOTNEWS from the beginning, yet no one has directly responded to it even now...

Writing an article entirely from a corporation's own publicity doesn't make an encyclopedia article. That's what I think we have here, though the sources are warmed-over press releases and the like, making it more difficult for us to judge what is due from them, as opposed to if they were the press releases that they're based upon. --Hipal (talk) 16:55, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

2 non-employee accounts agreed Consensus is not a vote, and ignoring policy (such as NOTNEWS) does not make for consensus. --Hipal (talk) 16:59, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Your opinion is they are not quality sources. No- its not a vote- but two other accounts disagree with you on if they are acceptable sources and YOU alone are saying your evaluation is of more weight than theirs. And if you cannot see how you are disrespectful to your fellow editors- I don't know how else to help you. The most important pillar of WP is collaboration. You are displaying WP:OWN and ignoring anyone you disagree with. Multiple people are telling you this. Listen or not but at some point if you don't listen- you will have problems. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:30, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

We disagree. You appear to be personalizing the situation, and you too are ignoring NOTNEWS while accusing me of ignoring others... --Hipal (talk) 17:36, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

MANY undeclared SPAs I've refactored my comments on the article talk page, striking out "likly UPE". I can look further. I may have assumed the editing by the two identified UPEs was indicative of a larger problem.

Looking a bit further: I use the article stats to determine the extent of editor activity, but I don't know of any way to see the stats for the article at the time I made comments or edits, so I don't know exactly what I was commenting on at the time. There are at least a few SPAs, the article creation looks sketchy, and there's at least one blocked editor there for SPAM/PROMO problems. I've struckout "many". --Hipal (talk) 22:48, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

because you don't like it [14] We disagree. You've made assumptions that are wrong and not in good faith. I will continue, but please strike out. --Hipal (talk) 17:32, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

I've made a quick pass through your comments, and struck out one more item [15].

Without commenting on anything else, I think it best to stop here, but I'll try to continue if you'd like. --Hipal (talk) 22:31, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Again with the "we disagree." That statement from you is ridiculous, unnecessary, unhelpful and uncollaborative. I will strike out nothing. You have given no indication you understand the policies you quote. Many of the sources are genuine, from respected sources. You reject them and claim WP:NOTNEWS but just quoting that doesn't make it true. You seem to think your agreement is necessary for progress- its not. Consensus is. You're right- its not a vote. But at the same time- when one editor is displaying WP:OWN and WP:DROPTHESTICK and other editors are repeatedly trying to explain how their behavior is unacceptable and they just continue with WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT..... Eventually the consensus will be to ignore the one who keeps stating I disagree and edit anyway. When editors go to boards like the DRN to ask for help and opinions and yet more editors come in and say HEY- you are doing something wrong here- you need to take a step back- and you STILL respond with your condescending, unhelpful "I Disagree"- at some point you really have to examine yourself. AS for the comments on this page- I've made no assumptions- I've given you the perspective of an outsider- you don't like it? The only part you can control is yourself- change your actions and maybe you will get a different reaction. Until then- step off my talk page with this nonsense. You are no longer welcome here with your obstinate theatrics. Nightenbelle (talk) 13:26, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

@Hipal, sorry for making assumptions about the reasons for your behavior. I do assume your overall motivation is to improve the quality of the encyclopedia. The problem is this is a collaborative project so we need to be able to work together on this. But first, I'm going to take a break from this dispute. ~Kvng (talk) 01:03, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Nova Scotia

The Nova Scotia dispute is another one that I think is being handled ineffectively by the participants. I closed it after no response. Then the filing editor asked me on my talk page to reopen it because he had been unable to access the Internet for several days due to travel problems. I told him to restart discussion on the article talk page. He has also made one post to another editor, and either has lost interest or is back off the net. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:40, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Well the internet thing I get- I don't loose internet, but I do get busy with work or weekends..... but then- I'm also not holding up articles being edited to suit my timeline so meh. Nightenbelle (talk) 19:46, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

He says that he often is without Internet access. I have advised him to ask for advice at the Teahouse about advice for editors with only intermittent Internet access. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:36, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Icertis

You closed this due to no response. I wanted to make sure you noticed that there is/was ongoing discussion at Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Summary_of_dispute_by_Hipal. It doesn't appear to be particularly constructive discussion so maybe not the kind of response you need. ~Kvng (talk) 21:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

no one stated they had reviewed the rules or that they intended to participate- thus- no response closure. If the editors involved can’t reply to a simple request in 4 days- drn is not going to work. If you would like to try again- you are welcome to reopen- but please be sure a majority of those involved plan to respond this time. Nightenbelle (talk) 03:50, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

User:Kvng - I don't see anything that I would characterize as discussion during the three days after Nightenbelle asked who was willing to take part in discussion. There was a useless back-and-forth a few hours after she asked who was willing to discuss. Neither of you said that you wanted to discuss; you basically questioned the value of discussion. Then there was nothing for three days. Then she closed the discussion, edit-conflicting with another unproductive comment by User:Hipal. If I had been the would-be mediator, I would have closed the discussion 12 to 24 hours earlier (which would have avoided the edit-conflict with Hipal). Just making cynical comments about being unsure if you want to discuss is hardly a response to a specific question. She asked who wanted to discuss, and you were silent for 48 hours. It looks to me as if the paid editor is trying to play by the rules. As I said yesterday, I am not sure about the volunteer editors, but not answering whether you want to discuss is not the same as agreeing to discuss. Maybe the two of you should find an article that doesn't have COI editors, and quarrel about it. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:35, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

No problem. That's what I assumed. I just wanted to check my assumption. No need to be snarky. ~Kvng (talk) 22:57, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Robert for answering..... Kvng- Robert and I are snarky on this page. All the time. Its not personal. Its just our personalities. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:30, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Trip to WP:AN

I don't know if you pay much attention to WP:AN, which is not the same as WP:ANI (which I think is its brattier child). Did you see the trip that I was taken on there a few days ago? I had warned an editor for suggesting that another editor was lying, with a Level 3 AGF notice. The other editor got upset by this, which I can understand, and then asked me on my talk page what the issue was, but then immediately also reported me at WP:AN. They forgot to notify me. Another editor did. By the time I was able to start writing my own comments, the Original Poster was blocked for personal attacks (not so much on me as on the other editors). Sometimes those boomerangs are fast. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:12, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

I don’t keep an eye on it as much as ani- but I saw that one. Damn it closed fast though! Nightenbelle (talk) 16:45, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

NPP drive award

		The Invisible Barnstar
		This award is given to Nightenbelle for 5 reviews and 4 re-reviews in the July NPP backlog reduction drive. Your contributions played a part in the 9895 reviews that took place during the drive. Thank you for your contributions.. Zippybonzo | Talk (he|him) 09:24, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Taylor Swift Dispute

If you happened to be away from your screen for a few hours, you might not have understood what happened at DRN. An editor filed a dispute about a Taylor Swift song. It had not been discussed at the song talk page, so I closed it. The filing editor then reverted my closure of the case, and changed the title to Taylor Swift, saying that the discussion had been at Talk:Taylor Swift. I closed the second filing because the editor has also filed at the edit-warring noticeboard. So that is sort of two closed cases.

Also, I asked for a comment from the administrator who had revdel'd the copyvio material, and the admin agrees with my analysis. Because the editor had been copying the report of Blinken's remarks from CNN, the account of the remarks was copyrighted. If they find a report of Blinken's remarks on a public domain site, such as a government web site, they can repost them, attributing to the public domain source. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:53, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

New Page Patrol newsletter August 2022

New Page Review queue August 2022

Hello Nightenbelle,

Backlog status

After the last newsletter (No.28, June 2022), the backlog declined another 1,000 to 13,000 in the last week of June. Then the July backlog drive began, during which 9,900 articles were reviewed and the backlog fell by 4,500 to just under 8,500 (these numbers illustrate how many new articles regularly flow into the queue). Thanks go to the coordinators Buidhe and Zippybonzo, as well as all the nearly 100 participants. Congratulations to Dr vulpes who led with 880 points. See this page for further details.

Unfortunately, most of the decline happened in the first half of the month, and the backlog has already risen to 9,600. Understandably, it seems many backlog drive participants are taking a break from reviewing and unfortunately, we are not even keeping up with the inflow let alone driving it lower. We need the other 600 reviewers to do more! Please try to do at least one a day.

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MB and Novem Linguae have taken on some of the coordination tasks. Please let them know if you are interested in helping out. MPGuy2824 will be handling recognition, and will be retroactively awarding the annual barnstars that have not been issued for a few years.

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The Page Curation software needs urgent attention. There are dozens of bug fixes and enhancements that are stalled (listed at Suggested improvements). We have written a letter to be sent to the WMF and we encourage as many patrollers as possible to sign it here. We are also in negotiation with the Board of Trustees to press for assistance. Better software will make the active reviewers we have more productive.

TIP - Reviewing by subject

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