Talk:Leif Erikson

Date of birth

"It is believed that Leif was born about 960 AD in Iceland[2], the son of Erik the Red" "Erik the Red (950–1000[1])"

are you claiming that Leif Ericson had a father that was 10 years old and had already become an outlaw, sailed over the atlantic and created a child?

quite impressive...

Anonymous user

Gallery

Hi, I noticed that the page had quite a lot of images. The right side is full and there is one on the left which looks a bit awkward. In order to solve this problem, I was hoping to create a gallery under the 'Legacy' section called 'Art and sculpture'. In the gallery I will put the two memorial statue photos and 'The Landing of the Vikings' painting. I will also add a painting by Hans Dahl (NB not Christian Krohg) called 'Leif Erikson Discovers America'. The advantage of a gallery is that it tidies the page and allows for other images to be added. For example, the commemorative Leif Erikson rune stone at L'Anse aux Meadows (LAM). For the other images, I will move the LAM photo to the right and just generally neaten. Any suggestions or objections? RickyBennison (talk) 14:12, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Anything that helps WP:Sandwich is good because of accessibility ... but best be aware of image spam problems as outlined at WP:GALLERY.--Moxy 🍁 14:37, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Personal life

This article misrepresents the indigenous peoples' story and struggle while glamorizing Erikson as being a wise and moral man. In reality, he viewed the indigenous people as outsiders, despite him being the one to enter their land from the outside. He killed the adults, enslaved their children, and kidnapped them to Europe

There are major issues with this sentence: "After Leif's first trip to Vinland, he returned to the family estate of Brattahlíð in Greenland, and started preaching Christianity to the Greenlanders." This sentence is problematic for many reasons, one being that Vinland was not a place back then. By referring to this land as Vinland, it erases the native ties and further embellishes the idea that Erikson "discovered" Vinland. It furthers the false narrative that the natives who lived there were an uncivilized society, living in the woods like animals, and needed the colonizers to "settle" them. Traditional maps of European colonizers in North America give the impression that the land was uninhabited forest before the Europeans entered . For this reason, it is ever important to recognize that the true inhabitants of the land are not "Greenlanders" as the article quotes. The true inhabitants of what is now Greenland are the indigenous people of various tribes, including the Inuit, Beothuk, and Micmac

Don'tTakeYourselfTooSeriously (talk) 04:27, 10 September 2020 (UTC)Don'tTakeYourselfTooSeriously

References

I agree. One problem is that the article does not clearly distinguish between established facts and the descriptoons or citations from the sagas. Other is that interpretations are mingled into it that are not referred to any source and maybe come from the author of the sentence (therfore, pov). For example, the mentioning of "red indians" which for sure none of the norse called them... Mucht to do, sort aout and rewrite! 47.71.46.26 (talk) 09:20, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Is there any clear evidence that this person actually existed? 212.129.74.59 (talk) 18:29, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

first known European to have set foot on continental North America?

The article says Erikson was probably born on the coast of Breiðafjörður. Since that is on the North American Plate side of Iceland, then Erikson is technically not European. The first known American to set foot on America maybe? SpinningSpark 19:55, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

That's a very interesting point, but irrelevant as continental plates don't determine the extent of a continent. All of Iceland has long been considered part of Europe, while knowledge of tectonics is relatively modern. UpdateNerd (talk) 09:39, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Religious issues

This is developing into a spat which has nothing to do with Leif's life. Of course the Orthodox and Catholic Churches claim continuity with the unified church prior to the Great Schism of 1054. I don't think this merits detailed mention in the article. PatGallacher (talk) 02:28, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Of course It merits mention in the article if you allow others to say he’s Roman Catholic in the article which it says at the bottom. It is very important because he is the first European colonizer of the Americas which most attribute to Columbus and his Catholicism(some claim Judaism). The Orthodox believes that it predates the Catholic Church back to the disciples time just as the Roman Church does. Look at purple line here it predates the red https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members#/media/File:Christianity_major_branches.svg

These are the references https://ocl.org/leif-eriksson-first-orthodox-christian-america/ http://www.orthodoxcanada.com/journal/2007-01-01.html https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/article/151011-columbus-day-leif-erikson-italian-americans-holiday-historyFoorgood (talk) 02:34, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

I agree with PatGallacher – referring to Leif either as a Roman Catholic or an Orthodox christian is an anachronism, and it is no surprise (but also of no encyclopedic interest in this article) that both Churches claim him. Following this edit the article (appropriately in my view) no longer claims that he was RC. Wham2001 (talk) 07:02, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

ok i think we can agree on that so can you also remove the source # 37 which says he was catholic? because if not i think we should put the source as well saying he was the first orthodox.Foorgood (talk) 15:25, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Foorgood, there have been some edits to the article (not by me!) since you posted so I'm not certain which source you meant, but assuming it was the uCatholic.com blog (which I agree was not reliable) then I think this has been done? Wham2001 (talk) 17:49, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

yes sir glad we came to consensus.Foorgood (talk) 18:01, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

The purple line is a split of the oriental orthodox from the unified church. The oriental orthodox are neither in communion with the eastern orthodox or the catholic churches and nowhere does the given article suggest that it predates Catholicism. While the Orthodox arguments seem to arise from random biased orthodox blogs, the claim that he was catholic is published by the new work times. Moreover it is definitive that Erickson had converted to the Latin western Church and not the Eastern church, so using the term Roman Catholic isn't an anachronism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:6010:c640:a84b:29b7:b834:96cf:db7f (talk) 15:13, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi 2603, and thanks for bringing your points to talk. Please remember to sign your talk page posts using 4 tildes at the end (~~~~). I encourage you to gain consensus here for your edits before making them again. Could you clarify which 'purple line' you're referring to? They NYT source looks good, but it attributes the "Catholic missionary" viewpoint to Heyerdahl and Lilliestrom and takes pains to note that their views are contested by other scholars. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 15:27, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi Firefangledfeathers the article in the NYT doesn't say that other scholars contest the views of the authors over erikson's religion, in fact there seems to be a broad consensus on that. The contest is over the impact that the vikings may have had on North America. The purple line that i was referring to was what the user:PatGallacher had erroneously used to claim that eastern orthodoxy is in anyway older than Roman Catholicism. He uses this file which records splits from the one unified christian church of the roman empire to suggest that oriental orthodoxy is older https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members#/media/File:Christianity_major_branches.svg. However this isn't true as the very link that he has provided seems to trace all christian denominations to a common origin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:6010:c640:a84b:29b7:b834:96cf:db7f (talk) 17:25, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

@PatGallacher, Foorgood, and Wham2001: in case you'd like to re-engage with this issue. It looks like the purple line view was Foorgood's FYI. If we're using that image, I'd say the relevant lines are grey, red, and blue; both East and West can reasonably lay claim to continuity with the pre-Schism church. Let me be clear: I am inexpert in this topic area. I was convinced by the prior rough consensus to support the status quo ante, but could easily be convinced by reliable sources stating otherwise. I am not so convinced that I'll revert your recently accepted version.

Speaking of which, I believe the NYT's attribution to the book authors, coupled with some of the Times' editorializing, serve to distance NYT from the 'Catholic' claims. Editorializing: "unique approach of", "even called". I also think the skeptical scholarly reception to the book's claims in other areas is evidence of their unreliability. If there is broad consensus that Erikson was Catholic, there should hopefully be more reliable sources attesting to the claim. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 17:43, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Firefangledfeathers, thanks for the note. I don't have a NYT subscription right now so I don't think there's much that I can add, but given what you and Moxy have written I doubt I'd be convinced to change my mind. Wham2001 (talk) 19:17, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

You're welcome. I share your doubts. For reference, here's the most pertinent snippet of the NYT piece (allowable per WP:C-P#TALK):

The unique approach of Dr. Heyerdahl and Mr. Lilliestrom was to cast a Roman Catholic glow over medieval Greenland and Vinland. They even called Leif Ericson "a Catholic missionary."

Firefangledfeathers (talk) 19:30, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Right – I would say that's clearly insufficient to support the article stating that Leif was Catholic in Wikipedia's voice. I've reverted this morning's addition. Best, Wham2001 (talk) 07:50, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Just seeing this talk.....pls review Full communion before junk media sources are used.Moxy- 18:28, 30 August 2021 (UTC)