Jump to content

Talk:William Windsor (goat): Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous edit
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
→Dates: new section
Question
 
(41 intermediate revisions by 23 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{Article history
{{tmbox
| type = content
| action1 = PR
| action1date = 26 May 2009
| style = background:#fffaef; border: 1px solid #c0c090;
| action1link = Wikipedia:Peer review/William Windsor (goat)/archive1
| image = none
| action2 = GAN
| text = This article must adhere to the policy on '''[[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons|Biographies of living goats]]'''. Controversial material about living goats that is unsourced or [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|poorly sourced]] '''must be removed immediately''', especially if potentially [[Slander and libel|libellous]]. If such material is repeatedly inserted or if there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard|living goats biographies noticeboard]].
| action2date = 8 April 2010
| action2link = Talk:William Windsor (goat)/GA1
| action2result = listed
| dykdate = 25 May 2009
| dykentry = ... that '''[[William Windsor (goat)|Lance Corporal William Windsor]]''' ''(pictured, on left)'' of [[The Royal Welsh]], who retired on 20 May 2009, is a [[Cashmere goat]]?
| topic=War and military
| currentstatus = GA
}}
}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=GA|

{{WikiProject Military history|class=GA|British=y}}
{{Peer review|archive=1}}
{{WikiProject Mammals|importance=low}}
{{WPMILHIST
{{WikiProject England|importance=Low}}
|class=B
{{WikiProject Zoo}}
|Biography-task-force=yes
{{WikiProject Cheshire|importance=low}}
|British-task-force=yes
<!-- B-Class-1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points have appropriate inline citations. -->
|B-Class-1=yes
<!-- B-Class-2. It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain obvious omissions or inaccuracies. -->
|B-Class-2=yes
<!-- B-Class-3. It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content. -->
|B-Class-3=yes
<!-- B-Class-4. It is free from major grammatical errors. -->
|B-Class-4=yes
<!-- B-Class-5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. -->
|B-Class-5=yes
}}
}}
{{Archives}}
{{WikiProject Animals|class=B}}
{{dyktalk|25 May|2009|{{*mp}}... that '''[[William Windsor (goat)|Lance Corporal William Windsor]]''' ''(pictured, on left)'' of [[The Royal Welsh]], who retired on 20 May 2009, is a [[Cashmere goat]]?}}

==Possible improvements==
I have rated this article as a start class as it does not have any supporting materials and I also feel that it requires a bit more detail, namely to explain why a goat would be serving in the British military. The article is well cited, though, and has some good content. Please remember that the military history project does not have a C class, thus it is either a B class or Start class.

I feel that the following improvements could be made, which would bring it up to B class:

* add some images and maybe an infobox containing biographical details, for an example please see [[Michael Allmand]];{{Done}}
* does the subject have any decorations, for example a GSM or the like? Perhaps this could be added?
* could the text be expanded a little? Also there is some confusion. In the lead the 'goat in the military' wikilink goes to 'military mascot', however, later the text says he is not a military mascot, but a ranking member of the regiment. This needs to be explained in a bit more detail. I would suggest expanding the lead a little.
* Grammar: there are a few very short paragraphs which I feel could be consolidated or expanded.{{Done}}

Just a few ideas. Hope this helps. Good effort so far. — [[User:AustralianRupert|AustralianRupert]] ([[User talk:AustralianRupert|talk]]) 10:09, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
:Great article, but visually it is a touch spoilt by the absurd number of duplicate references (eg "Three months later, on 20 September<ref name=E/> at the same parade ground,<ref name=E/>"). Could these not be cut down a bit? [[User:Ericoides|Ericoides]] ([[User talk:Ericoides|talk]]) 10:35, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

:Many thanks for the above feedback; I will do what I can. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I have contacted the MoD and Royal Welsh to try to obtain pictures; no feedback from them yet. This is currently a DYK nomination [[Template_talk:Did_you_know#William_Windsor_.28goat.29|here]]. <small><span style="border: 1px solid; background-color:darkblue;">[[User:Chzz|'''<span style="background-color:darkblue; color:#FFFFFF"> &nbsp;Chzz&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:Chzz|<span style="color:#00008B; background-color:yellow; border: 0px solid; ">&nbsp;►&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 17:12, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

== historical background ==

I have spent some time looking into the origins of the goat in the regiment, and feel that this could usefully be added to the article; some sources contradict, and further analysis is required. It will be necessary to explain the origins of the regiment and the later merger, perhaps necessary to give the alternate takes on the possible origin. This needs work; hence, for now, I give the sources that I found in the hope that it can be integrated and clarified in the article;

*[http://www.gtj.org.uk/en/small/item/GTJ11356/ Museum info]
*[http://www.royalwelshband.com/goat/goat.shtml Royal Welsh band info] (rs?) - this is the main source for the interesting origin that could be cited, "One of the Irish soldiers acquired a small goat kid with which he intended to supplement his meagre ration. He was on sentry duty at the time and tucked the live kid under his greatcoat. During the night, he fell asleep, to be suddenly awakened by the agitated bleating of the animal. As he came to, he espied a Russian patrol advancing and was able to warn the forward picket who drove off the enemy."
*[http://www.rwfmuseum.org.uk/en_faq.html Museum FAQ]
*[http://british-cemetery-elvas.org/fusiliers.html some history piece]
*[http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t92962.html forum discussion] - quotes from books that could be sourced; "From the text it is obvious that even then, less than ninety years after the Regiment had been raised, the origins of the custom of the Goat were already shrouded in mystery"
*[http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZAvQfZFbLp4C&pg=PA239&dq=%22royal+welch%22+goat&lr=&client=firefox-a book], refers to custom in 1775

<small><span style="border: 1px solid; background-color:darkblue;">[[User:Chzz|'''<span style="background-color:darkblue; color:#FFFFFF"> &nbsp;Chzz&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:Chzz|<span style="color:#00008B; background-color:yellow; border: 0px solid; ">&nbsp;►&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 22:46, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

*There's some good information from [http://books.google.com/books?id=OOwRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA215&dq=fusilliers+goat&lr=&num=30&as_brr=3&as_pt=ALLTYPES&client=firefox-a#PPA213,M1 this book], though the writing is quite inaccessible.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 06:41, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
*[http://books.google.com/books?id=8-XNAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA280&dq=fusilliers+goat&lr=&num=30&as_brr=3&as_pt=ALLTYPES&client=firefox-a More here].--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 08:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
*Some related material in [http://books.google.com/books?id=k-vPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA404&dq=fusilliers+goat&lr=&num=30&as_brr=3&as_pt=ALLTYPES&client=firefox-a this book]. This article is fun to work on. I had this stupid grin plastered on my face while adding the material on a goat major having been court-martialled for "disrespect to an officer" after he "prostituted" the royal goat. Note that I have added Billy to [[Wikipedia:Unusual articles]].‎--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 08:40, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

== [[army number]] ==

An excellent article, but I'm very surprised there's no Wikipedia article to link to, for 'army number'. But I know what you'll be telling me ...

:{{sofixit}}.

[[User:Trafford09|Trafford09]] ([[User talk:Trafford09|talk]]) 10:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

: Hi, mate. I have now linked Army Number to [[Service number]]. I think that should be adequate as it has a bit about UK numbers in it. — [[User:AustralianRupert|AustralianRupert]] ([[User talk:AustralianRupert|talk]]) 11:06, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

:: Ah - lateral thinking - I like it:) Cheers, [[User:Trafford09|Trafford09]] ([[User talk:Trafford09|talk]]) 13:34, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
:: It was still on my conscience, so I've just created a new redirect: [[Army number]]. [[User:Trafford09|Trafford09]] ([[User talk:Trafford09|talk]]) 14:15, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

:::...and I have improved the redirect, so that it now points to <code><nowiki>Service_number#United_Kingdom</nowiki></code> <small><span style="border: 1px solid; background-color:darkblue;">[[User:Chzz|'''<span style="background-color:darkblue; color:#FFFFFF"> &nbsp;Chzz&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:Chzz|<span style="color:#00008B; background-color:yellow; border: 0px solid; ">&nbsp;►&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 23:12, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

== Royal herd ==

I think that a lot more information is available about the Royal Herd; whether it should be in this article, I am not sure, but this news story certainly would be worth mentioning - because it mentions that, during it, the Royal Welsh will select the replacement; [[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/8045544.stm Contraceptives to curb goat herd]] BBC 12 May 2009 <small><span style="border: 1px solid; background-color:darkblue;">[[User:Chzz|'''<span style="background-color:darkblue; color:#FFFFFF"> &nbsp;Chzz&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:Chzz|<span style="color:#00008B; background-color:yellow; border: 0px solid; ">&nbsp;►&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 03:29, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

== thoughts and resources ==

Some scrappy notes, that need organising;

*Clarify why the herd is at Great Orme ''and'' Whipsnade; are these both parts of the "Royal Herd"?

*Add info about contraception and gathering of new goat;
"Luckily soldiers from the 1st Battalion the Royal Welch Fusiliers have agreed to help. As they round up the herd they will also choose a goat to be the regimental mascot. "
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/8045544.stm here] with video
-how come, on this occasion, it seems like they're getting a goat from there, for helping out, rather than the age-old tradition of the gift from the monarch?
See also [http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/Nanny-jabs-set-to-curb.5228074.jp wales pioneer article]
*There is an alternative reason for them having a goat; something about a soldier getting a goat as a ration supplement, and at night its bleat alerted him to an invasion. Can't remember where I saw this - maybe Google books? [http://books.google.co.uk/books?q=royal%20welsh%20goat&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wp this] might have something? (UPDATE: SEE BELOW <small><span style="border: 1px solid; background-color:darkblue;">[[User:Chzz|'''<span style="background-color:darkblue; color:#FFFFFF"> &nbsp;Chzz&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:Chzz|<span style="color:#00008B; background-color:yellow; border: 0px solid; ">&nbsp;►&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 19:50, 24 May 2009 (UTC))

*Add to explanation of regiment over time; ie 23rd Regiment of Foot becoming [[Royal Welch Fusiliers]] etc;

*Info on the 'only other goat in the army'? ie [[Royal Welsh]] 2nd Battalion, see [http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/medals-famous.asp National Archives], re. Taffy. Maybe needs a separate article for him? infobox:military goat, anyone?

*See [http://www.gtj.org.uk/en/war-and-rebellion/arms-and-equipment/regimental-goats/ museum exhibits] on the goats

*Find out about when he came to the Welsh - twins? Partial article [http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-82999948.html here], needs 'free trial' (credit-card) to read the whole thing; or maybe can get this paper elsewhere? Looks like the 2 goats were twins? Can then add background about previous goat - twins mentioned [http://www.defensedaily.com/articles/dt/2002/dt03040222.htm in this defensedaily]

<small><span style="border: 1px solid; background-color:darkblue;">[[User:Chzz|'''<span style="background-color:darkblue; color:#FFFFFF"> &nbsp;Chzz&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:Chzz|<span style="color:#00008B; background-color:yellow; border: 0px solid; ">&nbsp;►&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 15:56, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Further goats;

*Mention [http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Mhej_UyFq8cC&pg=PA27&dq=whipsnade+%22royal+herd%22+goats&client=firefox-a#PPA27,M1 in this book] of Dewi IV presented to the 3rd batallion
*[http://mysticwicks.com/archive/index.php/t-141115.html blog] with all kinds of info
*Re. above alternate origin theory, [http://www.royalwelshband.com/goat/goat.shtml here] (thought to be an RS);
::The origins of the Regimental Goat reach back to the Crimean War of 1854/56 where one of the Irish soldiers acquired a small goat kid with which he intended to supplement his meagre ration. He was on sentry duty at the time and tucked the live kid under his greatcoat.
::During the night, he fell asleep, to be suddenly awakened by the agitated bleating of the animal. As he came to, he espied a Russian patrol advancing and was able to warn the forward picket who drove off the enemy.
*MOD [http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FactSheets/DefenceInWales.htm fact sheet]
::"3rd Battalion The Royal Welsh, Maindy Barracks...Regimental mascot is 'Shenkin' the goat"
::And see pic "Shenkin, the goat mascot of the Royal Welsh Regiment, leads the band at the Millenium Stadium, Cardiff, before the Wales v England international Rugby match"
*[http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2009/02/23/regiment-proud-to-receive-honour-91466-22985854/ Wales news] "Goat Major, Sergeant David Joseph, of the 3rd Battalion The Royal Welsh, and Shenkin the Goat."
*""Di" - WWI Goat Mascot of the 15th Welsh Battalion" [http://www.flickr.com/photos/sunnybrook100/3397121079/ here on flickr] - with LOTS of info.
*Scottish springbok mascot in 1915 [http://www.jocks.co.za/museum.htm here] - may fall outside project scope; not sure about the subspecies etc.
*Flickr, museum sign (I've lost the URL; search again; some museum in wales has the pic of a goat w/ goat major outside it)
*Goat Major, the pub: [http://www.cardiffpubs.co.uk/Pub.php?Pub=GoatMajor here], "The name is taken from the Mascot of the Royal 41st regiment of Wales. They carried a live goat on the Russian front line in the Crimean War. The goat survived the War and was introduced to Queen Victoria back in England....'''The pub offers a range of Goat Major memorabilia.''' :-)
<small><span style="border: 1px solid; background-color:darkblue;">[[User:Chzz|'''<span style="background-color:darkblue; color:#FFFFFF"> &nbsp;Chzz&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:Chzz|<span style="color:#00008B; background-color:yellow; border: 0px solid; ">&nbsp;►&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 19:50, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

== Demotion ==

What consequences had the punishment for Billy.
A cut in retirement pay?--[[Special:Contributions/92.227.180.253|92.227.180.253]] ([[User talk:92.227.180.253|talk]]) 20:46, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

:As far as I can ascertain, there were no long-term consequences following his reinstatement. It's a fair point though - as a retired Lance Corporal, surely he should be entitled to a pension. I will try to find out more about this. <small><span style="border: 1px solid; background-color:darkblue;">[[User:Chzz|'''<span style="background-color:darkblue; color:#FFFFFF"> &nbsp;Chzz&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:Chzz|<span style="color:#00008B; background-color:yellow; border: 0px solid; ">&nbsp;►&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 23:02, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

==Two Questions==

First regarding the history: how did the original goat get to Bunker Hill in the first place; does anyone know who the goat belonged to originally? I ask this because goats were never native to North America (at least not New England) so I am a bit puzzled if this is a feral beast who got a hold of a flag for too long or just an American "turncoat goat."

Second, regarding the current animal: Is his pension paid in alfalfa or actual pounds? (I know it is a bit funny when you think about it, but it WOULD be interesting to know.... <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Shadowpuppet23|Shadowpuppet23]] ([[User talk:Shadowpuppet23|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Shadowpuppet23|contribs]]) 23:34, 25 May 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Bill the Goat ==

I have just come across [[Bill the Goat]]. This is going to require some form of disambiguation, hatnotes, see also, or something. <small><span style="border: 1px solid; background-color:darkblue;">[[User:Chzz|'''<span style="background-color:darkblue; color:#FFFFFF"> &nbsp;Chzz&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:Chzz|<span style="color:#00008B; background-color:yellow; border: 0px solid; ">&nbsp;►&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 07:00, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

== 1914 GOAT PRESENTED BY HIS MAJESTY TO THE 7TH ROYAL WELSH FUSILIERS ==

[[File:Royal welsh goat 1914.jpg|thumb]]

<blockquote>
THE KING AS GIVER OF WAR-MASCOTS: THE GOAT PRESENTED BY HIS MAJESTY TO THE 7TH ROYAL WELSH FUSILIERS. The King recently presented the white goat shown in the above photograph to the 7th Battalion (Reserve) Royal Welsh Fusiliers, who, since they were raised, have been in training at Newtown, Montgomeryshire. The Welsh Fusiliers have always had a white goat as a mascot, drawn from the famous herd of Cashmere goats which also supplied the King's gift. The animal given by his Majesty to the new battalion was taken from Windsor to Newtown under escort, and was received at the station by two men of the 7th Royal Welsh Fusiliers, who stood with fixed bayonets. On the left in the photograph are Lady Magdalen Herbert, sister of the Earl of Powis, and the Earl's young daughter, Lady Hermione Herbert. On the right are Captains J.H. Addie and Oswald Davies.—[Photo. by Griffiths.]
</blockquote>
The Illustrated War News, Number 15, Nov. 18, 1914 PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK May 7, 2006 [EBook #18333]
<small><span style="border: 1px solid; background-color:darkblue;">[[User:Chzz|'''<span style="background-color:darkblue; color:#FFFFFF"> &nbsp;Chzz&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:Chzz|<span style="color:#00008B; background-color:yellow; border: 0px solid; ">&nbsp;►&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 07:46, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


== Dates ==
== (insert face palm) ==


I was banging my head on my desk when I was reading this. (deep and long sigh) (face palm)
I have just had this from Whipsnade Zoo: Billy was born on 23rd September 2001 as one of twins. They both went to the fusiliers on 21st February 2002.


This is hilarious. Kudos to the editors who wrote this. --[[User:Zhangj1079|Zhangj1079]] ([[User talk:Zhangj1079|T]]&#124;[[Special:Contributions/Zhangj1079|C]]&#124;[[User:Zhangj1079/creations|c]]) 00:50, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
If that weren't at odds with what's already been documented I'd add it to the article, but I think it should wait until we can see the evidence and also explain the discrepancy.


== Life expectancy ==
--[[User:ClickRick|ClickRick]] ([[User talk:ClickRick|talk]]) 12:06, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
The text suggests that Billy is still alive, but according to this [https://www.pashwrap.com/blogs/news/the-ultimate-guide-to-cashmere-goats-everything-you-need-to-know source], the life expectancy of a cashmere goat is around 12 to 14 years. So, he would have died around 2015 at the latest. Is there any more information about that? --[[User:Mister Pommeroy|Mister Pommeroy]] ([[User talk:Mister Pommeroy|talk]]) 14:15, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 14:15, 26 November 2024

Good articleWilliam Windsor (goat) has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
May 26, 2009Peer reviewReviewed
April 8, 2010Good article nomineeListed
Did You Know
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on May 25, 2009.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that Lance Corporal William Windsor (pictured, on left) of The Royal Welsh, who retired on 20 May 2009, is a Cashmere goat?
Current status: Good article

(insert face palm)

[edit]

I was banging my head on my desk when I was reading this. (deep and long sigh) (face palm)

This is hilarious. Kudos to the editors who wrote this. --Zhangj1079 (T|C|c) 00:50, 12 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Life expectancy

[edit]

The text suggests that Billy is still alive, but according to this source, the life expectancy of a cashmere goat is around 12 to 14 years. So, he would have died around 2015 at the latest. Is there any more information about that? --Mister Pommeroy (talk) 14:15, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:William_Windsor_(goat)&oldid=1259682540"