Jump to content

Talk:T. S. Eliot: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous edit
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
m Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Talk:T. S. Eliot/Archive 3) (bot
 
(43 intermediate revisions by 18 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{Talk header|search=yes}}
{{Talk header|search=yes}}
{{British English}}
{{British English}}
⚫
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|living=no|listas=Eliot, T. S.|1=
{{Vital article|level=4|topic=People|class=B}}
{{WikiProject University of Oxford|importance=Low|auto=inherit}}
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=
{{WikiProject University of Oxford|class=B|auto=inherit|importance=}}
{{WikiProject Chicago|importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Chicago|class=B|importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Biography|a&e-priority=Top|core=yes|a&e-work-group=yes}}
{{WikiProject Missouri|importance=mid}}
⚫
{{WikiProject Biography|living=no|class=B|a&e-priority=Top|core=yes|a&e-work-group=yes|listas=Eliot, T. S.}}
{{WikiProject Missouri|class=B|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject St. Louis|importance=mid|wg=culture}}
{{WikiProject St. Louis|class=B|importance=mid|wg=culture}}
{{WikiProject Poetry|importance=top}}
{{WikiProject Poetry|class=B|importance=top}}
{{WikiProject London|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject London|class=B|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject England|importance=high}}
{{WikiProject England|class=B|importance=high}}
{{WikiProject Conservatism|importance=Low}}
}}
}}
{{external peer review
{{external peer review
Line 16: Line 16:
| org = The Guardian
| org = The Guardian
| comment = It was rated 6/10.}}
| comment = It was rated 6/10.}}
{{V0.5|class=B|category=Langlit}}
{{OnThisDay|date1=2018-01-04|oldid1=818486809}}
{{OnThisDay|date1=2018-01-04|oldid1=818486809}}
{{User:MiszaBot/config
{{User:MiszaBot/config
|archiveheader = {{talkarchivenav}}
|archiveheader = {{talkarchivenav}}
|maxarchivesize = 75K
|maxarchivesize = 150K
|counter = 3
|counter = 3
|minthreadsleft = 4
|minthreadsleft = 2
|minthreadstoarchive = 1
|minthreadstoarchive = 1
|algo = old(28d)
|algo = old(365d)
|archive = Talk:T. S. Eliot/Archive %(counter)d
|archive = Talk:T. S. Eliot/Archive %(counter)d
}}
}}


== [[Wikipedia:Short description|Short description]] ==
== Nationality in the lead ==


I reverted [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=T._S._Eliot&diff=882684056&oldid=882683448 this edit] which had the edit summary "Although he was born American, he was not American as he renounced his citizenship". My edit summary was "he was American until 1927 and certainly well-known as a poet by then". Why is this considered problematic? Happy to see a more neutral short description if one can be agreed. Thanks. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 22:08, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
A little over three years ago, after seeing constant edits changing the nationality of Eliot in the article's lead, I wrote a sentence saying where he was born, when he went to England and when he became a British subject (not a citizen.) This did well in keeping the number of nationality reversions down. Lately though the lead was expanded by mentions of many other works he wrote. Additionally, the bit about the American birth, moving to the UK and his change in nationality got expanded into a mini-biography. All these extras stretched the space between the identity of Eliot in the first sentence and his serial nationality, hiding the fact of nationality. Then nationality again began to creep in at the top. Currently Eliot is identified as an '''American''' poet (I was tempted to make him, in the same sentence, a '''British''' playwright.) I made a change to the article to get closer to my old edit that seemed to work well. I also moved his quotation about the role of nationality on his poetry down to the the '''Poetry''' section. Due to reversions Eliot is once again an American poet and his quotation shows up in two locations. Comments? [[User:WikiParker|WikiParker]] ([[User talk:WikiParker|talk]]) 16:20, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
:Generally speaking, we respect an individual's own choice of nationality - for instance if someone self-described themselves as 'Scottish'. Eliot is a bit complex, certainly legally, in opting to become a British subject, he (at that time) lost his right to be an American. I'd say to reflect that complexity, it should be disposed of (in summary) at the top; and to say when seems reasonable. Expansion of the topic - for instance the quote - is more appropriate in the body of the article. The lead should be 2-3 paras summarising the content of the whole - so, while it's currently a bit short, it should actually have less detail in it. [[User:Kbthompson|Kbthompson]] ([[User talk:Kbthompson|talk]]) 16:38, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


:- see earlier discussions on this Talk page [[Talk:T. S. Eliot#Nationality in the lead|Nationality in the lead]] and [[Talk:T. S. Eliot#Opening Paragraph|Opening Paragraph]] (and there are probably more archived) - the short description is problematic because there are those who insist Eliot was an American poet and those who insist he was a British poet - there have been numerous edits and reverts to the lead describing him as an "American-born British poet" and many other variations, none of which have achieved consensus - for a short description it would be best to leave the nationality out altogether - perhaps say he was a Modernist poet or a significant 20th century poet or something like that - I can't tell you what to do, but putting the nationality in the short description will not be constructive - cheers - [[User:Epinoia|Epinoia]] ([[User talk:Epinoia|talk]]) 22:23, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
::He was born in America, raised in America, educated in America, wrote the first poem that made his name in America, had it first published in America, and described his poetry as emanating from America. He was in every possible sense an American poet. That doesn't change by the fact that he acquired the right to a British passport at the age of 39, just as John Lennon didn't become an American musician because he went to live in New York. <font color="purple">[[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">[[User talk:SlimVirgin|TALK]]</font> <font color="green">[[Special:Contributions/SlimVirgin|contribs]]</font></sup></small> 19:06, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
:::''The Waste Land'' was edited by Pound when they were post-American. ''Ash Wednesday'' celebrated his joining the Anglican Church. ''Four Quartets'' discusses his time helping his fellow Brits during WW2. He left America after Harvard and considered himself a - MODERNIST :). Like Joyce, Pound, Auden, and some others, he had no nationality because he had multiple ones. A true cosmopolitan. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 19:15, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


::No objections to "Modernist poet or a significant 20th century poet or something like that". I still think the original removal was not justified by that rationale. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 22:26, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
::::Pound was an American too, Ottava. :) And Eliot's religion surely has nothing to do with it. <font color="purple">[[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">[[User talk:SlimVirgin|TALK]]</font> <font color="green">[[Special:Contributions/SlimVirgin|contribs]]</font></sup></small> 19:22, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
:He was an American. You can reject what you are with words, but that doesn't change what is. [[User:MutedL|MutedL]] ([[User talk:MutedL|talk]]) 23:59, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
:::::Well, Anglicanism is all about King and Country, and he joined the Anglican Church when he became a British citizen. Virginia Woolf basically said he was dead to her because of it. Important moment in his life. :) [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 20:15, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


== Eliot’s movements 1914-15 ==
The above arguments seem to me to be concentrated almost entirely on the question of which Wikipedia contributor's opinion should prevail. But surely this is a no-brainer. The answer obviously is none of them, since Wikipedia contributor's opinions are POV and/or OR. We need to talk about facts, and the ''fact'' is that literary critics and historians have never settled on one national identity for TSE. His work is included most of the respected mainstream academic anthologies of English poetry, and also in those of American poetry -- and please don't say that that doesn't prove anything: it proves that respected expert opinion, which we're supposed to follow rather than personal contributor's opinions, has classified him as both nationalities. ''The Columbia Encyclopedia,'' one of the most authoritative reference works, begins its entry on TSE with the words, "American-British poet and critic," and this I think is the best that can be done and the example we should follow. [[User:Strawberryjampot|Strawberryjampot]] ([[User talk:Strawberryjampot|talk]]) 20:13, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
: [http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/184705/T-S-Eliot Britannica] uses "Anglo-American poet" and "American-English poet". We can at least hope to more consistent than them. As I understand it he would still have been an "[[Anglo-American]]" had he never left America. [[User:William Avery|William Avery]] ([[User talk:William Avery|talk]]) 21:10, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
::Speaking about his change in nationality now occupies almost half the lead section. Is there any reason we can't simply mention in this opening section that he was born in America, moved to the UK, and later adopted British citizenry? Does it--and the change's influence on his work--actually need to occupy half of the lead? There is already a separate section for this later. [[User:Patchyreynolds|ThtrWrtr]] ([[User talk:Patchyreynolds|talk]]) 19:14, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
:::Good point. I just did it. Special note: I removed the "American mind, Britsh heart" quote. You would think that Google could find something this good in books or scholarly papers but it doesn't. [[User:WikiParker|WikiParker]] ([[User talk:WikiParker|talk]]) 23:42, 12 August 2011 (UTC)


From Vivienne’s Wiki page: Carole Seymour-Jones writes that [Tom & Vivienne] first met in London in March 1914 at a party in a hotel. Seymour-Jones writes that he was first introduced to her at a lunch party in Magdalen College in or around March 1914.
This is laughable. He is American. He was born in America. His mother was born in America. His father was born in America.--[[User:Mikeyfaces|Mikeyfaces]] ([[User talk:Mikeyfaces|talk]]) 00:27, 15 January 2018 (UTC)


From Vivienne’s Talk Page: According to most sources, it was March 1915, and they married three months later. (This was my own contribution).
== Opening Paragraph ==


From Eliot’s Wiki page: Eliot was awarded a scholarship to Merton College, Oxford, in 1914. He first visited Marburg, Germany, where he planned to take a summer programme, but when the First World War broke out he went to Oxford instead.
The author has asked in the hypertext of the opening paragraph to exclude any mention of Eliot's American origin from the opening sentence. But it is a standard feature of Wikipedia biographies to give nod to the country of one's birth (see talk on the Harry Houdini biography. Inasmuch as he was not British until adulthood, I propose identifying him as American-English in the opening sentence.
````
:Please, no. The lede has been crafted through many years to keep edit wars to a minimum. If you are interested in the topic at all you will see that Eliot was born in America in a few sentences. Saying American-English will lead to English-American to British-American to British to English to American and on and on. I've often thought it would be fun to say he was a British playwright and an American Poet ("But in [my poetry's] sources, in its emotional springs, it comes from America") but I've held back. You can too. [[User:WikiParker|WikiParker]] ([[User talk:WikiParker|talk]]) 12:43, 22 January 2018 (UTC)


And…
::Eliot is clearly an American writer, despite taking British citizen late in life. It, therefore, makes better sense to describe him as an American-born, British essayist, etc. He spent the formative, first 25 years of his life in the United States. [[Henry James]] is described as an American author. I note that [[Samuel Beckett]] is not called French, despite writing in French and residing there for the last 50 years of his life.


Eliot wrote to Conrad Aiken on New Year's Eve 1914: "Oxford is very pretty, but I don't like to be dead.” Does this relate to 31/12/13 or 31/12/14?
::I fail to see why this ''small'' change shouldn't be made. This is a fairly small matter of emphasis. [[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128|talk]]) 23:35, 30 April 2018 (UTC)


Some consensus required, I think. [[User:Valetude|Valetude]] ([[User talk:Valetude|talk]]) 22:02, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
::: Would the following revision be acceptable? I've tried to produce a more neutral statement; an attempt avoid the ambiguity surrounding Eliot's national identity!
::::'''Thomas Stearns Eliot''', {{post-nominals|country=GBR|size=100%|OM}} (26 September 1888 – 4 January 1965), was born in the United States, and lived there until he moved to England in 1914. He became a British citizen in 1927. Eliot was an essayist, publisher, playwright, literary and social critic, and "one of the twentieth century's major poets". [[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128|talk]]) 15:21, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

The above just states the facts. If there is no further comment I will revise the lede. [[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128|talk]]) 10:32, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

:I reversed the content (see edit summary). Not attached though, if there is no agreement for that move.([[User:Littleolive oil|Littleolive oil]] ([[User talk:Littleolive oil|talk]]) 04:44, 9 January 2019 (UTC))

== Jacob Epstein ==

I'm removing the new section titled "Jacob Epstein." While filled with factual, cited information this is an encyclopedia article, a synopsis, and I doubt the information is even deemed important enough to be placed full biographies. And, by the way, it's Eliot, not Elliot. Perhaps the material is a better fit for the [[Jacob Epstein]] page anyway. Or Eliot.com may be able to do something with it. [[User:WikiParker|WikiParker]] ([[User talk:WikiParker|talk]]) 13:13, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
:[[Jacob Epstein]] is a very notable sculptor and I'm very surprised the article now makes no mention of him at all. I think perhaps a trim would have been justified. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 13:22, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
::I agree with the removal - it doesn't contribute anything to our knowledge or understanding of Eliot - the addition was mostly about the history of the sculpture which is irrelevant to Eliot's life - and the addition was stuck right in the middle of the "Life" section giving undue weight to something minor - cheers - [[User:Epinoia|Epinoia]] ([[User talk:Epinoia|talk]]) 15:22, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
:::Are you suggesting that all statues made of notable people are irrelevant to "our knowledge or understanding" of their lives? If so, I think you'll be busy elsewhere. [[WP:UNDUE]] can be addressed by reducing the amount of material as well as wholesale removal? But I'd have no problem with moving it from the "Life" section. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 15:39, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
:If you trouble to read the main work I cited, which is newly published, it talks about the fact that the relationship is not cited in past biographies; hence my inclusion of the quote, from a noted Eliot scholar, that the bust {{TQ|"intimates that great scholarly insights may yet be garnered from the Eliot-Epstein connection"}}. This is not ''just'' a signifiant artwork; it is an a significant artwork, an edition of which Eliot purchased as a gift for his own wife (and which they subsequently displayed in pride of place in their own home); it is a work by a Jewish friend of someone known for alleged anti-semitism; and it is an artwork bequeathed by Eliot's widow, in his memory, to an institution named after him. Of course it should be included. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 16:08, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
::In which case its position, in the "Life" section, seems perfectly appropriate. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 16:29, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
:::I tend to agree that this is somewhat significant given Eliot's relationship with his wife and given the reputation of the sculptor. This is more than trivia. Unless there's a concern I could revert in a few hours.([[User:Littleolive oil|Littleolive oil]] ([[User talk:Littleolive oil|talk]]) 17:01, 9 January 2019 (UTC))
I have not been convinced. Eliot had many friends that had significance in his life, even Jewish ones. He was the subject of many portraits both painted and photographic. He had correspondence with many contemporary writers. I'm sure that he gave many gifts to his wife. Do these all get a paragraph? I agree that the Epstein information is not trivia; it is worth being online but it does not belong in this article. [[User:WikiParker|WikiParker]] ([[User talk:WikiParker|talk]]) 20:41, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
::::Who were they? And where are the enduring works of art they created, inspired by Eliot? Perhaps they deserve a mention too. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 21:16, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

- Suggestion - could we start a new section titled something like "In art" or "Portraits" and list the sculpture by Epstien along with the paintings by Wyndham Lewis, Patrick Heron, and other notable artists? - perhaps under the "Honours and Awards/Other honours" section - cheers - [[User:Epinoia|Epinoia]] ([[User talk:Epinoia|talk]]) 17:54, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
:No objections. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 18:39, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 16 January 2019 ==

{{edit semi-protected|T. S. Eliot|answered=yes}}
Further Reading: Norbert Nail: „Dieses ganze System von Beamten und Professoren“ – Der Dichter T.S. Eliot über Marburg und Deutschland [https://www.uni-marburg.de/de/uniarchiv/inhalte-pdf/eliot.pdf] [[Special:Contributions/84.138.226.224|84.138.226.224]] ([[User talk:84.138.226.224|talk]]) 17:31, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
:In my opinion this is not worth adding to the English article because so few will find it useful. [[User:WikiParker|WikiParker]] ([[User talk:WikiParker|talk]]) 13:51, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
:{{not done}} I agree. Not very useful. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 13:54, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 12:35, 15 October 2024

Short description

[edit]

I reverted this edit which had the edit summary "Although he was born American, he was not American as he renounced his citizenship". My edit summary was "he was American until 1927 and certainly well-known as a poet by then". Why is this considered problematic? Happy to see a more neutral short description if one can be agreed. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:08, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- see earlier discussions on this Talk page Nationality in the lead and Opening Paragraph (and there are probably more archived) - the short description is problematic because there are those who insist Eliot was an American poet and those who insist he was a British poet - there have been numerous edits and reverts to the lead describing him as an "American-born British poet" and many other variations, none of which have achieved consensus - for a short description it would be best to leave the nationality out altogether - perhaps say he was a Modernist poet or a significant 20th century poet or something like that - I can't tell you what to do, but putting the nationality in the short description will not be constructive - cheers - Epinoia (talk) 22:23, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No objections to "Modernist poet or a significant 20th century poet or something like that". I still think the original removal was not justified by that rationale. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:26, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
He was an American. You can reject what you are with words, but that doesn't change what is. MutedL (talk) 23:59, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Eliot’s movements 1914-15

[edit]

From Vivienne’s Wiki page: Carole Seymour-Jones writes that [Tom & Vivienne] first met in London in March 1914 at a party in a hotel. Seymour-Jones writes that he was first introduced to her at a lunch party in Magdalen College in or around March 1914.

From Vivienne’s Talk Page: According to most sources, it was March 1915, and they married three months later. (This was my own contribution).

From Eliot’s Wiki page: Eliot was awarded a scholarship to Merton College, Oxford, in 1914. He first visited Marburg, Germany, where he planned to take a summer programme, but when the First World War broke out he went to Oxford instead.

And…

Eliot wrote to Conrad Aiken on New Year's Eve 1914: "Oxford is very pretty, but I don't like to be dead.” Does this relate to 31/12/13 or 31/12/14?

Some consensus required, I think. Valetude (talk) 22:02, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:T._S._Eliot&oldid=1251296918"