View source for Talk:War artist

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==Fair use rationale for Image:WPholding at kap-yong 72.jpg==
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[[User:BetacommandBot|BetacommandBot]] ([[User talk:BetacommandBot|talk]]) 07:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

== New file [[:{{#ifexist:File:File:Maurice William Greiffenhagen by Maurice William Greiffenhagen.jpg|File:File:Maurice William Greiffenhagen by Maurice William Greiffenhagen.jpg|File:Maurice William Greiffenhagen by Maurice William Greiffenhagen.jpg}}]] ==

[[{{#ifexist:File:File:Maurice William Greiffenhagen by Maurice William Greiffenhagen.jpg|File:File:Maurice William Greiffenhagen by Maurice William Greiffenhagen.jpg|File:Maurice William Greiffenhagen by Maurice William Greiffenhagen.jpg}}|right|thumb]]
Recently the file [[:{{#ifexist:File:File:Maurice William Greiffenhagen by Maurice William Greiffenhagen.jpg|File:File:Maurice William Greiffenhagen by Maurice William Greiffenhagen.jpg|File:Maurice William Greiffenhagen by Maurice William Greiffenhagen.jpg}}]] (''right'') was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. It's a selfportrait. [[User:Dcoetzee|Dcoetzee]] 07:02, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

== Dispute definition of war artist ==

The current introduction runs as follows:

''A war artist, also known as a combat artist, captures the experience of war in an artistic manner whilst based '''in the battlefield'''. Unlike war poets, a war artist is almost always '''acting in an official capacity'''.''

On what is this based? I have an interest in POW art and many such works are of importance but were created in captivity in a voluntary, or only semi-official, capacity eg soldiers who happened to be artists would record POW life after capture. Sometimes this would be on a self-appointed basis, otherwise it would be on the instruction of a senior officer. Such works have been: used in war crime trials; placed in museums (such as the Imperial War Museum); subsequently sold for considerable sums (such as the works of Jack Bridger Chalker).

I would welcome input before editing the introduction.
[[User:Tomintoul|Tomintoul]] ([[User talk:Tomintoul|talk]]) 14:33, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

:We have a definition [http://www.answers.com/topic/war-art here] of "'''War Art'''":
:*(1)  by artists officially commissioned either to spend varying periods of wartime under fire or to be present at nearly every kind of military activity, in order to record them; or 
:*(2)  by servicemen-artists responding to powerful inner urges to depict direct war experience; or 
:*(3)  by sensitive onlookers; or 
:*(4)  by a combination of all of these.
:Searching Google Books[http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=%22war%20art%20is%22&lr=&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wp] brings up the same thing, War Art is art by people involved in war in some manner. I am also wondering if this article should be moved to "'''War Art'''", articles should be about the thing or the person? [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] ([[User talk:Ohioartdude2|talk]]) 23:42, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

== Too many unreferenced/redlink artists here? ==
There are many artists here who are unreferenced, let alone having their own entry. Should they be deleted?[[User:Tomintoul|Tomintoul]] ([[User talk:Tomintoul|talk]]) 09:53, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
:There seems to be some reference at the top of the sections but, yeah, lists should probably be list existent articles, and there is [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lists)]]. I have seen discussions about too many red links and this may be considered borderline. I would tend toward leaving them so someone can flesh them out or delete them, depending on what refs exist. [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] ([[User talk:Ohioartdude2|talk]]) 16:52, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
::The problem with the redlinks is that these are all supposed to be "famous" war artists - at a minimum, artists should be sufficiently notable to have their own Wikipedia article to qualify.  If redlinks are eliminated, it is obviously without prejudice for someone to create an article later on and to re-insert the artist's name on this list.  I would suggest that they ought to be deleted, as  otherwise the section runs afoul of [[WP:V]] and [[WP:OR]].  As an added point, I would reword the title to "Notable war artists" (which more accurately describes what is intended than the word "famous").  --[[User:Skeezix1000|Skeezix1000]] ([[User talk:Skeezix1000|talk]]) 15:46, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

:::What about moving the red links to the talk page?  Decision-making about any one of the red links might benefit from further discussion? Compare, for example,
:::* [[Order of the Rising Sun#Status notability?]]
:::* [[Order of the Sacred Treasure#Status verifiability?]]
:::Could a strategy like this prove helpful in improving the quality and scope of this article? --[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 03:40, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree: move all redlinks to talk page pending proof of notability.[[User:Tomintoul|Tomintoul]] ([[User talk:Tomintoul|talk]]) 10:51, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

== Dynamic lists ==

It seems OTT to have a dynamic list note under each sub heading: surely one note at the top would suffice?? [[User:Tomintoul|Tomintoul]] ([[User talk:Tomintoul|talk]]) 10:57, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

:In response to this comment, all dynamic list templates were removed.  However, today I added templates in the American, Australian, British and Canadian sections.  Are they not necessary? unhelpful? --[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 21:07, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

==Status: notability?==
Does it make sense to limit new additions to this list? Is it appropriate at this stage of the article's development to initiate a standard limiting names on this select list to 
:(a) those who already have Wikipedia articles 
:<u>and</u> 
:(b) those who are notable for something other than having depicted war in art -- ''see,'' e.g., US [[Navy Cross (United States)|Navy Cross]] edit history? 

In a context informed by practices which seem to have worked out well at [[Navy Cross (United States)|Navy Cross]], all new additions who aren't already featured in an article could be re-redirected to this talk page section with the following edit history explanation:
:: <u>  redlink/artist name  </u>''must be known for something other than depicting war -- see "Status: Notability" on talk page''

The redlinks of those whose names were added, but who do not have an article yet are listed below:

===Notable American war artists===
{{dynamic list}}
{{col-begin}}
{{col-2}}
*[[Conrade Wise Chapman]], [[Civil War]]
*[[Frank Vizetelly]], Civil War
*[[Charles Johnson Post]], Soldier-artist, [[Spanish American War]]
*[[Walter Granville-Smith]], Newspaper, Spanish American War
*[[George Harding]] Army/Marines, [[World War I]]
*[[Griffith Baily Coale]] Navy, [[World War II]]
*[[Franklin Boggs]] <ref group="US">US [[Public Broadcasting Service]] (PBS). [http://www.pbs.org/theydrewfire/index.html  ''They Drew Fire: Combat Artists of World War II,''] [http://www.pbs.org/theydrewfire/artists/boggs.html  Franklin Boggs.] 1st broadcast, May 2000.</ref> 
*[[Manuel Bromberg]] <ref group="US">PBS. ''They Drew Fire,'' [http://www.pbs.org/theydrewfire/artists/bromberg.html  Manuel Bromberg.]</ref>
*[[Howard Cook]] Army, World War II
*[[David Fredenthal]] Army, World War II
*[[Richard M. Gibney]] <ref group="US">PBS. ''They Drew Fire,'' [http://www.pbs.org/theydrewfire/artists/gibney.html  Richard Gibney.]</ref>
*[[Albert Gold]] Army, World War II
*[[Robert Greenhalgh]] <ref group="US">PBS. ''They Drew Fire,'' [http://www.pbs.org/theydrewfire/artists/greenhalgh.html  Robert Greenhalgh.]</ref>
*[[George Harding]] Marines, World War II
*[[Theo Hios]] Marines, World War II
*[[Ardis Hughes]], World War II
*[[Lucien Labaudt]] Army, World War II
*[[Edward Lanning]] Army, World War II
*[[Edward Millman]] Navy, World War II
*[[Bill Maudlin]] Army, World War II
*[[Barse Miller]] Army, World War II
*[[Harry D. Reeks]] Marines, World War II
*[[Edward Reep]] <ref group="US">PBS. ''They Drew Fire,'' [http://www.pbs.org/theydrewfire/artists/reep.html  Edward Reep.]</ref>
*[[Alexander P. Russo]] Navy, World War II
*[[Sidney Simon]] Army, World War II
*[[A. Brockie Stevenson]] Army, World War II
*[[Frede Vidar]] Army, World War II
*[[Kristopher J. Battles]], Recent conflicts
* [[Bernard Arnest]], 1917–1986 <ref group="US" name="brown">[[Brown University Library]], [http://www.brown.edu/Facilities/University_Library/exhibits/Artists/files/Artists.html American war artists]</ref>
* [[Walter Arnett]], 1922– &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
{{col-2}}
* [[Richard Baldwin]], 1920– &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
* [[Robert Benny]], 1904– &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
* [[Robert Noel Blair]], 1912– &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
* [[William Bostick]], 1913– &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
* [[Manuel Bromberg]], 1917– &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
* [[Foster Caddell]], 1921– &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
* [[William Capece]], 1919– &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
* [[Walter Chapman]], 1912– &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
* [[Keith Crown]], 1918– &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
* [[Wayne Dean]]
* [[Walter Feldman]], 1925– &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
* [[David Fredenthal]], 1915–1958. &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
* [[Richard Gibney]], 1922– &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
* [[Albert Gold]], 1916– &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
* [[Theo Hios]], 1908– &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
* [[Joe Jones]]{{dn}} Army <ref group="US">Harrington, Peter, "The 1943 War Art Program," ''Army History'', No. 55, Spring-Summer 2002, pp. 4-19.</ref>
* [[Mimi Korach Lesser]], 1922– &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
* [[Julian Mackewicz]], 1915– &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
* [[Richard Morton (artist)]], 1921– &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
*[[Albert Murray (artist)]] Navy
* [[Stephen Pace (artist)]], 1918– &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
* [[Harry Reeks]], 1921–1982. &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
* [[Charles Salerno]], 1912– &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
* [[Charles Shannon (artist)]], 1914– &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
* [[Benjamin Steele]] <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
* [[Albert Stevenson]], 1919– &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/> 
* [[James Walker (artist)]]?
* [[Albert Wasserman]], 1920– &nbsp; &nbsp; <ref group="US" name="brown"/>
* [[Patricia Yaps]], 1935- .
{{col-end}}

:;Notes
<references group="US"/>

===Notable Australian war artists===
{{dynamic list}}
{{col-begin}}
{{col-2}}
* [[Louis McCubbin]], 1890 – 1952 . [[First World War]] <ref group="AUS" name="1st">[[Australian War Memorial]] (AWM): [http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/war_artists/ww1.asp  First World War, official artists]</ref>
* [[J. S. McDonald]], First World War <ref group="AUS" name="1st"/>
* [[James F. Scott (artist)]], 1877 – 1932 , First World War <ref group="AUS" name="1st"/>
* [[Dennis Adams]], 1914 – 2001, [[Second World War]] <ref group="AUS" name="2nd">AWM: [http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/war_artists/ww2.asp  Second World War, official artists]</ref>
* [[George Allen (artist)|George Allen]], 1900 – 1972, Second World War <ref group="AUS" name="2nd"/>
* [[Richard Ashton]], 1913 – 2001, Second World War <ref group="AUS" name="2nd"/>
* [[Conway Bown]], 1966 - &nbsp; <ref group="AUS">Australian [http://www.defence.gov.au/media/DepartmentalTpl.cfm?CurrentId=6130 Department of Defence]; 5 March 2011</ref>
* [[George Browning (artist)|George Browning]], 1918 – 2000, Second World War <ref group="AUS" name="2nd"/>
* [[Charles Bush]], 1919 – 1989, Second World War <ref group="AUS" name="2nd"/>
* [[Colin Colahan]], 1897 – 1987, Second World War <ref group="AUS" name="2nd"/>
* [[Sybil Craig]], 1901 – 1989, Second World War <ref group="AUS" name="2nd"/>
* [[R. Emerson Curtis]], 1899 – 1996, Second World War <ref group="AUS" name="2nd"/>
* [[Lyndon Dadswell]], 1908 – 1986, Second World War <ref group="AUS" name="2nd"/>
* [[James Flett]], 1906 – 1986, Second World War <ref group="AUS" name="2nd"/>
* [[Roy Hodgkinson]], 1911 – 1992, Second World War <ref group="AUS" name="2nd"/>
* [[Frank Hodgkinson]], 1919 – 2001, Second World War <ref group="AUS" name="2nd"/>
* [[Geoffrey Mainwaring]], 1912 – 2000, Second World War <ref group="AUS" name="2nd"/>
* [[Max Ragless]], 1901 – 1981, Second World War <ref group="AUS" name="2nd"/>
* [[Reg Rowed]], 1916 – 1990, Second World War <ref group="AUS" name="2nd"/>
* [[R. Malcolm Warner]], 1902 – 1966, Second World War <ref group="AUS" name="2nd"/>
{{col-2}}
* [[Max Newton]], 1919 – 1975, Second World War <ref group="AUS" name="2nd"/>
* [[Eric Thake]], 1904 - 1982, Second World War <ref group="AUS" name="2nd"/>
* [[Rex Julius]], 1914 – 1944, Second World War <ref group="AUS" name="2nd"/>
* [[Jeffery Wilkinson]], 1921 – 1997, Second World War <ref group="AUS" name="2nd"/>
* [[George Colville]], 1887 – 1970, British Commonwealth Occupation Force (BCOF), Japan <ref group="AUS" name="2nd"/>
*[[Conway Bown]], Iraq War
* [[Lyndell Brown]], 1961 -  &nbsp; &nbsp;, War in Iraq <ref group="AUS" name="post1945">AWM: [http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/war_artists/1945totoday.asp  Conflicts 1945 to today, official artists]</ref>
* [[Jon Cattapan]], 1956 -  &nbsp; &nbsp;, Peacekeeping in East Timor <ref group="AUS" name="post1945"/>
* [[Bruce Fletcher]], 1937 -  &nbsp; &nbsp;, [[Vietnam War]] <ref group="AUS" name="post1945"/>
* [[Charles Green (artist)|Charles Green]], b. 1953, War in Iraq <ref group="AUS" name="post1945"/>
* [[eX de Medici]], 1959 -  &nbsp; &nbsp;, Peacekeeping in [[Solomon Islands]] <ref group="AUS" name="post1945"/>
* [[Herbert Badham]],  1899-1961, Second World War <ref group="AUS">[[Canadian War Museum]] (CWM), [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/herbert-badham_e.shtml  Herbert Badham]</ref>
* [[Charles Bush]], 1919-1989, Second World War <ref group="AUS">CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/charles-bush_e.shtml  Charles Bush]</ref>
* [[Colin Colahan]], 1897-1987 , Second World War <ref group="AUS">CWM,  [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/colin-colahan_e.shtml  Colin Colahan]</ref>
* [[Sybil Craig]], 1901-1989 , Second World War <ref group="AUS">CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/sybli-craig_e.shtml Sybil Craig]</ref>
* [[Lyndon Dadswell]], 1908-1986 , Second World War <ref group="AUS">CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/lyndon-dadswell_e.shtml Lyndon Dadswell]</ref>
* [[Sheila Hawkins]], 1905-1999 , Second World War <ref group="AUS">CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/sheila-hawkins_e.shtml Sheila Hawkins]</ref>
* [[Francis Lymburner]], 1916-1972 , Second World War <ref group="AUS">CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/francis-lymburner_e.shtml Francis Lymburner]</ref>
* [[Eric Thake]], 1904-1982 , Second World War <ref group="AUS">CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/eric-thake_e.shtml Eric Thake]</ref>
{{col-end}}

:;Notes
<references group="AUS"/>

===Notable British war artists===
{{dynamic list}}
{{col-begin}}
{{col-2}}
* [[J. Bell]], post-[[Crimean war|Crimea]]
* [[Stephen Bone]], [[Second World War]]
* [[Paul Bullard]], 1918-1996, Second World War <ref group="UK">[[Canadian War Museum]] (CWM), [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/paul-bullard_e.shtml  Paul Bullard]</ref>
* [[Graham Barry Clilverd]], Second World War
* [[James A. Crowe]], [[Crimean War]]
* [[Leslie Cole (artist)|Leslie Cole]], 1910-1976, Second World War <ref group="UK">CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/leslie-cole_e.shtml  Leslie Cole]</ref>
* [[E.T. Dolby]], Crimean War
* [[Arabella Dorman]], Iraq War <ref group="UK">Harrison, David. [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/5262624/War-artist-Arabella-Dorman-paints-Iraq.html  "War artist Arabella Dorman paints Iraq,"] ''Telegraph'' (London). May 2, 2009.</ref>
* [[Richard Eurich|Richard Ernst Eurich]], 1903 – 1992, Second World War
* [[Maurice William Greiffenhagen]], [[Boer War]]s
* [[Anthony Gross]] [[Order of the British Empire|CBE]] [[Royal Academy|RA]], 1905-1984, Second World War <ref group="UK">CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/anthony-gross_e.shtml  Anthony Gross]</ref>
* [[William Hampton (artist)]] <ref group="UK" name="MOD1">British [[Ministry of Defence (UK)|Ministry of Defence]] (MOD), [http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/DefenceEstateandEnvironment/MODArtCollection/MinistryOfDefenceArtCollectionWarArtists.htm  War artists]</ref>
* [[Archibald Hartrick|Archibald Standish Hartrick]] (1864-1950), [[First World War]]
* [[Elsie Hewland]], 1935 -  &nbsp; &nbsp;, Second World War <ref group="UK">CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/elsie-hewland_e.shtml  Elsie Hewland]</ref>
* [[Norman Howard]] <ref group="UK" name="MOD2">MOD,
[http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/DefenceEstateandEnvironment/MODArtCollection/MinistryOfDefenceArtCollectionBattles.htm  Battles]</ref>
* [[Cedric Kennedy]], 1898-1968, Second World War <ref group="UK">CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/cedric-kennedy_e.shtml  Cedric Kennedy]</ref> 
* [[Linda Kitson]], Falklands campaign
{{col-2}}
* [[Edwin La Dell]] [[Associate of the Royal Academy|RA]], 1914-1970, Second World War <ref group="UK">CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/edwin-la-dell_e.shtml Edwin La Dell]</ref>
* [[Robert T. Landells]], Crimean War
* [[Rowland Langmaid]] <ref group="UK" name="MOD1"/>
* [[W. T. Maud]], Boer Wars
* [[Irving Montagu]], post-Crimea
* [[James Morris (artist)|James Morris]], Second World War
* [[Rodrigo Moynihan]] [[Royal Academy|RA]] [[Order of the British Empire|CBE]], 1910-1990, Second World War <ref group="UK">CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/rodrigo-moynihan_e.shtml  Rodrigo Moynihan]</ref>
* [[Montague O'Reilly]], Crimean War
* [[Charles Pears]], 1873 - 1958, First World War
* [[George Plante]], 1914-1995, Second World War <ref group="UK">CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/george-plante_e.shtml  George Plante]</ref>
* [[Leonard Rosoman]] [[Royal Academy|RA]], 1935 -  &nbsp; &nbsp;, Second World War <ref group="UK">CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/leonard-rosoman_e.shtml  Leonard Rosoman]</ref>
* [[John Schonberg]], post-Crimea
* [[Alistair Stewart (artist)]]<ref group="UK" name="MOD1"/>
* [[Alfred Thomson]] [[Royal Academy|RA]], 1894-1979, Second World War <ref group="UK">CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/alfred-thomson_e.shtml  A. R. Thomson]</ref>
* [[Matvyn Wright]], 1910 -  &nbsp; &nbsp;, Second World War <ref group="UK">CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/matvyn-wright_e.shtml  Matvyn Wright]</ref>
* [[H. C. Seppings Wright]], Boer Wars <ref group="UK" name="MOD2"/>
{{col-end}}

:;Notes
<references group="UK"/>

===Notable Canadian war artists===
{{dynamic list}}
{{col-begin}}
{{col-2}}
*[[Thomas Harold Beament]], 1898 - 1985, [[Second World War]] <ref group="CA">Library and Archives Canada (LAC), [http://epe.lac-bac.gc.ca/100/206/301/lac-bac/canadian_war_artists-ef/www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/war-artists/05100201_e.html  Thomas Harold Beament]</ref>
*[[Bruno Jacob Bobak]], 1923 -  &nbsp; &nbsp;, Second World War <ref group="CA">LAC, [http://epe.lac-bac.gc.ca/100/206/301/lac-bac/canadian_war_artists-ef/www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/war-artists/05100203_e.html  Bruno Jacob Bobak]</ref>
*[[Patrick George Cowley-Brown]], 1918 - 2007, Second World War
* [[Richard Eurich]], 1903-1992, Second World War <ref group="CA">CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/richard-eurich_e.shtml  Richard Eurich]</ref>
*[[Francis Michael Forster]], 1908 -  &nbsp; &nbsp;, Second World War <ref group="CA">LAC, [http://epe.lac-bac.gc.ca/100/206/301/lac-bac/canadian_war_artists-ef/www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/war-artists/05100208_e.html  Francis Michael Forster]</ref>
* [[Charles Goldhamer]], 1903-1985, Second World War <ref group="CA">CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/charles-goldhamer_e.shtml  Charles Goldhamer]</ref> 
*[[Paul Alexander Goranson]], 1911 - 2002, Second World War <ref group="CA">LAC, [http://epe.lac-bac.gc.ca/100/206/301/lac-bac/canadian_war_artists-ef/www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/war-artists/05100209_e.html  Paul Alexander Goranson]</ref>
*[[Lawren Phillips Harris]], 1910 - 1994, Second World War <ref group="CA">CWM, [http://www.warmuseum.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artists/harris1eng.shtml Lawren Phillips Harris]</ref>
* [[Edward John Hughes]], 1913 2007, Second World War <ref group="CA">CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/ej-hughes_e.shtml E.J. Hughes;] Art History Archive: [http://www.arthistoryarchive.com/arthistory/canadian/EJ-Hughes.html  E.J. Hughes]</ref>
*[[Charles Anthony Francis Law]], 1916 - 1996, Second World War
* [[Thomas Reid MacDonald]], 1908-1978, Second World War <ref group="CA">CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/tr-macdonald_e.shtml  T. R. MacDonald]</ref>
{{col-2}}
*[[Donald Cameron MacKay]], 1906 - 1979, Second World War
*[[Rowley Walter Murphy]], 1892 - 1973, Second World War
*[[George Douglas Pepper]], 1903 - 1962, Second World War
*[[George Campbell Tinning]], 1910 - 1996, Second World War
* [[Moses Reinblatt]], 1917-1979, Second World War <ref group="CA">CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/artists/moses-reinblatt_e.shtml  Moses Reinblatt]</ref>
*[[Thomas Charles Wood]], 1913 - 1997, Second World War
*[[Dailin Spence]], 1990 - 2007, Gulf War
*[[William Macdonnell]], 1943 -  &nbsp; &nbsp;, Balkan conflict
*[[Allan Harding Mackay]], 1944 -  &nbsp; &nbsp;, Afghanistan
*[[smsteele]] first official war poet?, 1966 -  &nbsp; &nbsp;, Afghanistan
*[[John Malcolm Horton]], 1935 -  &nbsp; &nbsp;, Persian Gulf
{{col-end}}

:;Notes
<references group="CA"/>

===Notable French war artists===
{{dynamic list}}
*[[Henri Durand-Brager]]
*[[Lucien Jonas]]
*[[Isidore Pils]]

===Notable German war artists===
{{dynamic list}}
{{col-begin}}
{{col-2}}
*[[Louis Braun]], [[Franco-Prussian War]]
*[[Heinrich Lang]], Franco-Prussian War

* [[Herbert Agricola]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne">WW2Talk, [http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/general/13917-ww2-german-official-war-artists.html  German Official War Artists], citing ''German War Art 1939-45'' by William Yenne.</ref>
* [[Max Ahrens]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Josef Arens ]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Otto Bloss]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Hans Boehme]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[N. Bohnsteen]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Karl Busch]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Elk Eber]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Ernst Eigener]], [[Second World War]]
* [[Fritz Freitag (artist)]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Fritz Friedel]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Friedhelm Froemer]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Helmut Georg]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Egon Grabner]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Eduard von Handel-Mazzetti]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
{{col-2}}
* [[Rudolf Henzel]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Willy Hermann]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Heinz Hindorf]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Albert Janesch]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Olaf Jordan]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Heinrich Knirr]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Arno Koenig]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Herman Kohlmann]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Hans Liska]], Second World War
* [[Muller-Gera]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Walter Preiss]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Karl Raible]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Walter Rose (artist)]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Harold Schwertifiger]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Wilhelm Wessel (artist)|Wilhelm Wessel]], 1904-1971 <ref group="DE">[[Archives New Zealand]] (Archives NZ), [http://warart.archives.govt.nz/WilhelmWessel  Wilhelm Wessel;] [http://www.wilhelm-wessel.de/  Wessel bio notes] </ref> <!-- DaVinci's "Last Supper," 5 Nov 1944 -->
* [[Ernst Widmann]] <ref group="DE" name="yenne"/>
* [[Wolfgang Willrich]], Second World War
{{col-end}}

:;Notes
<references group="DE"/>

===Notable New Zealand war artists===
{{dynamic list}}
{{col-begin}}
{{col-2}}
* [[George Edmund Butler]], 1872-1936 <ref group="NZ">Archives NZ, [http://warart.archives.govt.nz/GeorgeEdmundButler Edmund Butler]</ref> 
* [[Alfred Pearse]] <ref group="NZ" name="what">Archives NZ, [http://warart.archives.govt.nz/whatiswarart What is war art]</ref>
* [[Nugent Welch]], 1881-1970 <ref group="NZ">Archives NZ, [http://warart.archives.govt.nz/NugentWelch Nugent Welch]</ref>
* [[Austin Deans]] <ref group="NZ" name="what"/>
* [[Jack Crippen]] <ref group="NZ">Archives NZ, [http://warart.archives.govt.nz/JackCrippen Jack Crippen]</ref>
* [[Allan Barns-Graham]], 1906-2006 <ref group="NZ">Archives NZ, [http://warart.archives.govt.nz/AllanBarns-Graham Allan Barns-Graham]</ref>
* [[Edward S Annison]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios">Archives NZ, [http://warart.archives.govt.nz/biographies  War Art, Artist biographies]</ref>
* [[Allan Barns-Graham]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[William Frederick Bell]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Leo Bensemann]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Walter Armiger Bowring]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Frank William Brangwyn]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[L M Buick-Constable]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Gerald Maurice Burn]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[George Edmund Butler]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[F D Choate]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[E F Christie]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[George Claussen]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Herbert James Bowkett Coe]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Archibald Douglas Colquhoun]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[R Maurice Conly]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Jack Crippen]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Frederick Herbert Cumberworth]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Austen Deans]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[William Dring]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[John Cameron Duncan]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[A J T Fraser]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[E Fritsch]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[A N Goldwater]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[H M Gore]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[P Grabner]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Maurice W Grieffenhagen]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Harley Griffiths]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[William Henry Gummer]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Archibald Standish-Hartrick]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[P M Hutchison]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[M Jillet]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[M Jonas]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Robin Kay]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Annie Elizabeth Kelly]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
{{col-2}}
* [[Eric Henri Kennington]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Carl Thorwald Laugesen]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Linwood Anthony Lipanovic]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Francis McCracken]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[H M McFarlane]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[J McMaster]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[W D F McPhee]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Duncan McPhee]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Otto Meister]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[A B Miller]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Leonard Victor Mitchell]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Gerald E Moira]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Wolf Moller]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Horace Millichamp Moore-Jones]] <ref group="NZ">Gray, Anne. [http://www.dnzb.govt.nz/DNZB/Maori_essay_body.asp?PersonEssay=3M60  "Moore-Jones, Horace Millichamp 1867/1868? - 1922,"]  [http://www.dnzb.govt.nz/  ''Dictionary of New Zealand Biography.'']</ref>
* [[Peter Moriarty]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Archibald Frank Nicoll]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Cuthbert Orde]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[C M Paterson]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Charles Pear]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Louis Raemakers]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[D J Ramage]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Harry Linley Richardson]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[K T Roussell]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Walter Schmock]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Claude Shepperson]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[John Pine Snadden]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Geoffrey Stobie]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[A M Thompson]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Ernest Heber Thompson]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[A B Townshend]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Cecil Trevithick]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Mary Elizabeth Richardson Tripe]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Mark Venables ]]  <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Richard Wallwork]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[Nugent Welch]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[D'Arcy Whiting]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[F W Woodhouse]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[F Woodruffe]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[G E Woolley]] <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
* [[William Lionel Wylie]]  <ref group="NZ" name="bios"/>
{{col-end}}

:;Notes
<references group="NZ"/>

===Notable Russian war artists===
{{dynamic list}}
*[[Ivan Vladimirov]]

{{reflist}}<!--NOTE: This template is here to capture any citation notes which are added in the conventional format instead of the grouped format which is explained at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_%28footnotes%29&oldid=422233699#Advanced -->

When any of the above-listed redlink names turn blue, we will know that transferring these names to the talk page was a worthwhile exercise.  If none turn blue, then we will have learned that this was a waste of time and effort. --[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 15:40, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Not a waste because potentially unnotable references will have been removed.  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Tomintoul|Tomintoul]] ([[User talk:Tomintoul|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tomintoul|contribs]]) 11:24, 19 July 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Official war artists==
The introduction needs to be re-worked; and the focus of the article needs to be clarified. If we conceive of this article to be about artists who depict war as a subject, then [[Pablo Picasso]]'s ''[[Guernica]]'' would be on-topic.  In my view, "[[The Death of General Wolfe]]" by [[Benjamin West]] would be on-topic as well. In the context of this article, it is irrelevant that Picasso did not fight in Spain.  Similarly, it doesn't matter that West's ''The Death of Wolfe'' and [[Emmanuel Leutze]]'s ''[[Washington Crossing the Delaware]]'' are historically wrong in many ways.  What matters is that the artists who created these icons of popular culture are depicting the topic of war.  Is this uncritical POV appropriate for this article?

IMO, artists who depict the reality of war are only one element of a very complex topic. In other words, the 20th-century evolution of the artist-in-uniform is only a "modern" aspect of a more complicated story. The "official" war artists are valid subjects; and there is sufficient information to support related articles.  The lists of official war artists and information about them could be developed more fully in these distinct articles. If something like this develops, then brief summary paragraphs with [[hyperlink]]s will need to remain in an overview article.  

I'm not sure that these projected titles are best?
* [[Canadian official war artists]]?
:Sources: [[Canadian War Museum]] (CWM), [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/introduction_e.shtml  "Australia, Britain and Canada in the Second World War,"] 2005. + [[Library and Archives Canada]] (LAC)
::Note: Representative artists which are listed in the Canadian section of the article about the [[War artist]] <u>and</u> in [[Canadian official war artists]] were selected using two criteria: (1) [[post-nominals]] and (2) inclusion in an exhibit of war artists at the [[Art Gallery of Ontario]] (AGO), [http://www.ago.net/canvas-of-war  "Canvas of War: Masterpieces from the Canadian War Museum,"] October 2001-January 2002.  This may not be the best rationale, but it was at least consistent with [[WP:V]] and [[WP:RS]].  --[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 18:46, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
* [[British official war artists]]?
:Sources: [[Imperial War Museum]] (IWM) + [[National Archives (UK)]]+ CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/introduction_e.shtml  "Australia, Britain and Canada in the Second World War,"] 2005.
::Note: Representative artists which are listed in the British section of the article about the [[War artist]] <u>and</u> in [[British official war artists]] were selected using two criteria: (1) [[post-nominals]] and (2) inclusion in [http://www.mod.uk/NR/exeres/6FA48997-0CC7-4252-A646-A1932A5F437F.htm  MoD Art Collection], including [http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/DefenceEstateandEnvironment/MODArtCollection/MinistryOfDefenceArtCollectionWarArtists.htm  MoD war artists] and [http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/DefenceEstateandEnvironment/MODArtCollection/MinistryOfDefenceArtCollectionBattles.htm  MoD battles].  This may not be the best rationale, but it was at least consistent with [[WP:V]] and [[WP:RS]].  --[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 18:46, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

* [[Australian official war artists]]?
:Sources: [[Australian War Memorial]] (AWM) + CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/introduction_e.shtml  "Australia, Britain and Canada in the Second World War,"] 2005.
::Note: Representative artists which are listed in the British section of the article about the [[War artist]] <u>and</u> in [[Australian official war artists]] were selected using two criteria: (1) [[post-nominals]] and (2) inclusion in Brandon, Laura and [[Canadian War Museum]]. (2008). [http://books.google.com/books?id=kwg9g5vc4jUC&dq=art+and+war&source=gbs_navlinks_s  ''Art and War.''].  I used the Brandon book because her essay was among the three featured commentaries at CWM, [http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/exhibitions/artwar/introduction_e.shtml  "Australia, Britain and Canada in the Second World War,"] 2005.  This may not be the best rationale, but it was at least consistent with [[WP:V]] and [[WP:RS]].  --[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 18:43, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

* [[American official war artists]]?
:Sources: [[Naval History & Heritage Command]] (NHHC) + [[U.S. Army Center of Military History]] (CMH)
* [[German official war artists]]?

This is not an urgent issue, but it does seem reasonable to invite comments and suggestions. --[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 08:01, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

===Non-Canadian war artists?===
Question: In the unique context of this article, should we identify the Anglo-American Benjamin West as a "Canadian war artist" because he painted ''The Death of General Wolfe''?  Should we describe [[Augustus John]] and [[Alfred Bastien]] as "Non-Canadian war artists" despite the fact that their significant combat experience was with Canadian troops? --[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 19:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

===Non-"war artists"?===
At present, the lists are divided by nationality and the sub-divided chronologically by historical war; however, this is not the only way in which this subject may be parsed.  The following are some examples of other ways to examine this subject:

The wealth of [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] which are revealed by googling "war artist" is support for a strategy of creating sub-articles which focus exclusively on "official" war artists of the First World War, the Second Word War and subsequent "post-war" conflicts.  These men and women traveled toward danger and combat armed primarily with a sketch-pad and secondarily with a gun.  This overview article then becomes about the artists who are properly excluded from those new articles.  For example, 
{{Col-begin}}
{{col-2}}
<b>'''Non-official''' war artist</b><br/>
[[Image:Washington Crossing the Delaware by Emanuel Leutze, MMA-NYC, 1851.jpg|thumb|right|120px|''[[Washington Crossing the Delaware]]'' on December 25, 1776, painted by [[Emanuel Leutze]] in [[Düsseldorf]] in 1850.]]
<u>Artist as non-contemporary story-teller</u>?  Leutze was born long after the event depicted in his greatest painting; and he did not personally participate in combat in this or any other war. 

The artist's depiction of an event in the American [[Revolutionary War]] was based on second-hand, indirect accounts?
<br>
_____<br>
<br>
[[File:Верещагин Шпион Эпизод из исп-ам войны 1901.jpg|thumb|left|120px|''Шпион Эпизод из исп-ам войны'' ("''Spy Episode of the Spanish-Am War''") in 1901 by [[Vasili Vereshchagin]], painted in the Philippines in 1901.]] 
<u>Artist as contemporary, non-inolved observer</u>? Does it matter that, as an eye-witness and as an artist, [[Vasili Vereshchagin]] was neither [[Spain|Spanish]], [[United States|American]] nor [[Philippines|Filipino]] in the [[Spanish-American War]] in 1901?  If an article about [[Official Filipino war artists]] were created, Vereshhagin would be excluded, yes?


{{col-2}}
:<b>'''Official''' war artist</b><br/>
[[File:Pereprava cherez Dunaj.jpg|thumb|right|120px|The Russian crossing of Danube near Zimnitsa on 15 June 1877, painted by [[Nikolai Dmitriev-Orenburgsky]] in Paris in 1883.]]
:<u>Depiction based on first-hand experience</u>.  Orengen was a sketch-correspondent in the [[Russo-Turkish War]], supplying artwork for publication by Russian and French journals and newspapers.  

:This depiction of events in war in 1877 was based on first-hand, [[eyewitness]], ''first-hand experience''.

:<u>Artist only as agent of the state</u>? Does it matter that, as an eye-witness and as a painter, Orenburgsky was not explicitly an agent of the Russian state?  If an article about [[Official Russian war artists]] were created, Orenburgsky would be excluded, yes? 
<br>
:_____<br>
<br>                .
:<u>Agent of the state only as non-combatant artist</u>? Does it matter that, as an eye-witness and as an artist, [[Otto Dix]] was only a German soldier on the western front in 1914-1917 and at the eastern front on 1917-1918?  If an article about [[Official German war artists]] were created, Dix would be excluded, yes?
{{col-end}}

This is a work in progress. --[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 19:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

:This article is currently two things. It is a topic "'''War artist'''", is a list article "'''List of war artists'''". The refs I see define "'''War Art'''", not "'''War Artist'''". This may be the crux of the problem with this article --- it has the wrong title. "War Art" can be definable by reference. Who is a "''War Artist''" is a variable overlapping and lengthy topic. The way to handle overlapping lists of material with slightly differing definitions is by [[WP:LIST]], i.e. we should handle this through the list system, not a single article. What is probably needed is to move this article to "'''War art'''", that has a definable limited definition. "War art" should contain a "List of lists". Each list can be specific and overlapping under [[WP:LIST]] re: [[List of official war artists by country]], [[List of civilian artists who have depicted war contemporaneously]] which may overlap with [[List of civilian battlefield artists]], etc. [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] ([[User talk:Ohioartdude2|talk]]) 17:27, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

== Back to the definition of war artist! ==

My view is that a true war artist is involved in the actual conflict in some way and present at the events they record. This is irrespective of whether they were appointed by the state (or others) or worked of their own volition. For example, I would not consider Picasso a war artist simply because he painted about war (no matter how great or famous the actual work).[[User:Tomintoul|Tomintoul]] ([[User talk:Tomintoul|talk]]) 08:01, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

There is also a problem with the term 'official', as inherent in this is an acceptance of the authority of the body that confers such status.[[User:Tomintoul|Tomintoul]] ([[User talk:Tomintoul|talk]]) 08:06, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
:I don't think we can go by personal definitions. There has to be some solid definition references or we don't even have an article, we just have [[WP:SYNTH]] (It could be a case for moving this entire article to [[List of artists who have depicted war]] - what it currently seems to be). Above at [[Talk:War artist#Dispute definition of war artist]] there is what seems to be one def. More are needed. ''Direct experience/reaction by contemporary soldiers or civilians'' seems to be the overall criteria. So Picasso would be a "War Artist" under that def, Leutze would fall more under the definition of a "[[History painting|history painter]]", he has no direct experience. I would also note that the current opening ref "About the Imperial War Museum"[http://www.iwm.org.uk/server/show/nav.604] does not mention or define "War artist" by name so is a bit of a stretch to support an intro def. [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] ([[User talk:Ohioartdude2|talk]]) 15:50, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
:BTW the headings "'''Notable XXXX war artists'''" is redundant. It should just have headings like "'''Australian war artists'''" etc. If they are in Wikipedia they are notable. If this article has solid references per: "'''War artist''' is a valid Wikipedia article topic" - then they should be listed here, they are not here because they are notable in some way. [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] ([[User talk:Ohioartdude2|talk]]) 16:41, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

::Yes -- "notable" and "war artist" are redundant in each section heading; but it was a reasonable emphasis in an earlier stage of development.  As you can see, the duplicative section headings are now more concise. --[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 19:31, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

== Notable vs Official War Artists ==

There is a distinction between 'Official War Artist' and 'Notable War Artist', although I am not convinced the definition of the former is widely agreed.

However, this article is certainly about 'Notable' war artists and I am unclear why Tenmei has deleted some entries.[[User:Tomintoul|Tomintoul]] ([[User talk:Tomintoul|talk]]) 09:07, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

:Please allow me to explain:
{{col-begin}}
{{col-2}}
::<u>Notable War Artist</u>
::A. <u>Base list</u> &mdash; This was all names listed in [[War Artist]] before July 2010, limited only to those with a Wikipedia article which is the sole basis for the adjective  [[WP:Notability|"notable"]].  All [[redlinks]] were moved to this talk page.<br>
::B. <u>Expanded list</u> &mdash; This includes names of those identified as "war artist" in a published, [[WP:RS|reliable source]], again limited only to those with a Wikipedia article; and again, this is the sole basis for the adjective  [[WP:Notability|"notable"]]. 
::[[File:Venn-diagram-ABC.png|thumb|right|120px|In this [[Venn diagram]], the "[[War artist]]" in war is parsed. <br>A = all [[British official war artists|Official war artists]] -- see left<br>B = [[War artist]]s <br>B = Picasso's ''[[Guernica]]''? yes? <s>no?</s><br>C = <s>Picasso's ''[[Guernica]]''? yes? no?</s>]]
::Also, the list includes names of artists with representative works in a public institution like the [[Canadian War Museum]] or the British [[Ministry of Defence (UK)|Ministry of Defence]] art collection.
::C. <u>Representative artists list</u> &mdash; When subsidiary/corollary articles were created, all names in each national war artist section were initially duplicated; and then some -- not all -- names in a specific section of [[War artist]] were culled. The simplistic and transparent rationales are explained above. 

{{col-2}}
::: <u>Official war artists</u>
::: Official war artists include anyone who is identified as "official" + "[[war artist]]" in a published, [[WP:RS|reliable source]] and who also has a Wikipedia article written about him or her.<br/>
<br>
::: This is the broadest possible way to define the category.<br>
<br> 
<br> 
:::[[File:Venn-diagram-AB.png|thumb|left|120px|In this [[Venn diagram]], the "Official war artist" in war is parsed. <br>A = all officially designated artists<br>B = all designated combatants <br>A+B = [[Canadian official war artists|Official war artists]].]]

{{col-end}}
:The selection standard may not be sufficiently nuanced.  Perhaps this approach is only good enough as a first step? a move in a constructive direction?  

:This is only a plausible start. At present, each article has a hybrid text + list presentation.  I would guess that both text and lists will expand further; and at some point, a number of list-only pages may be created, e.g., compare [[Russo-Japanese War#Military attachés and observers]] and [[Military attachés and observers in the Russo-Japanese War]]? 

:If this explanation is not clear enough, please allow me to try to explain again in different words. My sole objective is to help us move towards consensus. --[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 19:56, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Tenmei, your work so far is deeply impressive and puts my contribution in the shade. My query was why you had deleted some artists that had Wiki articles and were well referenced. I assume this was a temporary situation caused by work in progress, as all is now well as far as I am concerned.[[User:Tomintoul|Tomintoul]] ([[User talk:Tomintoul|talk]]) 20:32, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
::I would interject that "notability" does not need to be defined. The "List" being made here in this context is a "list of Wikipedia articles". '''All subjects of Wikipedia articles are notable'''. So any artist that has a Wikipedia article and has created work from direct experience/reaction to war is a "War Artist" and belongs on this list as defined by [http://www.answers.com/topic/war-art this reference]. That can be a very big list and un-obtainable re:too long a list (see [[WP:SALAT]]). We may want to do a 180 turn and define "War art", not the artist. That can be reliably referenced. Any artist article can "link on" via adding a link to '''Categories: War artists'''.  ([[User talk:Ohioartdude2|talk]]) 22:04, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

:::If [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] is proposing an implicit ''either-or'' [[dichotomy]], I can't agree.  
:::*Fact: There are valid reasons for an article about [[War art]] (as distinguished from the current article about [[Military art]]).  In a context established by [[WP:V]] and [[WP:RS]], the on-going online [http://warart.archives.govt.nz/ War Art] project undertaken by [[Archives New Zealand]] validates this as a solid, on-point suggestion.  Perhaps [[War art]] is a necessary Wikipedia topic?
:::*Fact: There are persuasive, verifiable reasons for this article about [[War artists]] as distinguished from articles about "official war artists."
:::It seems to me that [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]]'s suggestion is helpful and important because it encourages us to try to see these articles from a variety of perspectives. --[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 00:57, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

::::Using the online archives of the New Zealand War Art project has 3 problems when used as a guideline for a Wikipedia article; they are not a secondary source, they by definition limit their scope to to fit a national and curatorial guideline re: "''pieces of war art, by artists formally commissioned by the New Zealand government, and other unofficial art works that were acquired by or donated to the collection''"[http://warart.archives.govt.nz/whatiswarart], and building an article based on what we see in a museum collection is building by [[WP:OR|original research]]. We have to cite reliable secondary sources for the basis of an article, and maybe check it against a tertiary source or two. So what do we have? A search of "War Art is" in google books[http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&tbo=1&q=%22War+Art+is%22&btnG=Search+Books] brings up many sources such as:
::::*[http://books.google.com/books?id=kwg9g5vc4jUC&pg=PA7&dq=%22War+Art+is%22&cd=1#v=onepage&q=%22War%20Art%20is%22&f=false '''Art and war''' By Laura Brandon]
::::*[http://books.google.com/books?id=7t2FIJU1VX0C&pg=PA213&dq=%22War+Art+is%22&lr=&cd=20#v=onepage&q=Art&f=false '''War paint: art, war, state and identity in Britain, 1939-1945''' By Brian Foss]
::::googling "a War Artist is" is a bit less fruitful[http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbo=1&tbs=bks%3A1&q=%22a+War+Artist+is%22&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=]

::::[http://www.answers.com/topic/war-art This tertiary source] quoting "''The Oxford Companion to Military History''"[http://books.google.com/books?id=ro8YAAAAIAAJ&q=The+Oxford+Companion+to+Military+History+War+art+is+that+which+has+been+developed&dq=The+Oxford+Companion+to+Military+History+War+art+is+that+which+has+been+developed&hl=en&ei=LJ9YTPu0AY689QT9xLnsBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA] gives us a definition: 
::::*''War art is that which has been developed and executed  (1)  by artists officially commissioned either to spend varying periods of wartime under fire or to be present at nearly every kind of military activity, in order to record them; or (2)  by servicemen-artists responding to powerful inner urges to depict direct war experience; or (3)  by sensitive onlookers; or (4)  by a combination of all of these.''
::::So lots to build on. [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] ([[User talk:Ohioartdude2|talk]]) 23:05, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

==Proposed changes==
The article seems to need some changes to match it with reference so I propose (and will do) the following if there is no objection:
*Move the article to [[War art]], as noted in previous talk both secondary and tertiary references use that as the overall topic heading.
*Re-write the intro to match reference and [[WP:MOSBEGIN]], its a little off topic and prosaic right now.
*Move the list items to new [[Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists|stand alone list]] such as [[List of official war artists]] and maybe [[List of artists who have depicted war contemporaneously]] or [[List of battlefield artists]] although I think it has been pointed out that "official war artists" is the most referenced topic. 
[[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] ([[User talk:Ohioartdude2|talk]]) 20:17, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

: [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] -- Is it possible to respond to your proposal with "yes" and "no" at the same time?  

:In other words, do create the new articles you propose. Do expropriate whatever part of [[War artist]] you want, but leave the article as a stub.  Yes, there is considerable overlapping in the projected article about [[War art]] and an overview aritcle about the artists who created [[War art]].  No, the conceptual distinction between an article about [[art]] and an article about [[artists]] is not unimportant or irrelevant.

:In short, if you are proposing to turn [[war artist]] into a redirect page, I cannot concur.  If you are <u>not</u> planning to eliminate [[war artist]], retaining it only as a redirect to [[war art]], I am happy to stand aside while something new unfolds.

: Can you see how this makes sense? --[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 20:30, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I am not convinced about these proposed changes. I like the recent improvements and making a change to 'War Art' introduces a wide range of new possibilities that are far too general. [[User:Tomintoul|Tomintoul]] ([[User talk:Tomintoul|talk]]) 22:54, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

: IMO, both [[War art]] <u>and</u> [[War artist]] are valid.  Both are necessary. Perhaps my point-of-view is better explained and illustrated by pointing to [[Toyohara Chikanobu#Genres]]?   

:I don't understand the basis for [[User:Tomintoul|Tomintoul]]'s caution. In contrast, I'm tentatively open to whatever edits  [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] wants to make.  We only stand to gain from the new perspective [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] introduces.  I forsee no adverse consequences.

:At best, a clearer consensus will emerge because of the investment of time and thought [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] offers. I welcome this re-evaluation as a timely opportunity. Why not? 

:At worst, this will become one of those [[lessons learned the hard way]].  Even if [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] eviscerates the article and if, for example, only two paragraphs remain &mdash; no problem. The current versions of [[War artist]] and this talk page are retained in the edit history.  --[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 01:19, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

::[[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] -- Please consider the following:
{{col-begin}}
{{col-2}}
::[[:Category:Depictions of war]]
::[[:Category:Wars by medium]]
::[[:Category:Media by war]] 
::[[:Category:War by medium]]
::              .
::[[:Category:War art]]
{{col-2}}
:[[World War I in art and literature]]
:[[World War II in art and literature]]
:     .
:[[War memorial]]
:•[[American Battle Monuments Commission]]
:•[[Commonwealth War Graves Commission]]
:•[[German War Graves Commission]]
{{col-end}}

::I wonder if other existing categories and articles in this subject-area may suggest tweaks in your thinking about [[War art]]? --[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 03:51, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

:::Moving the article to [[War art]] and redirecting [[War artist]] to it would follow Wikipedia policy and guidelines. Article titles need to be nouns ([[WP:ADJECTIVE]]), follow [[Pop artist]], [[Conceptual artist]], [[Video artist]] and see where it takes you. Reference is placing this topic at [[War art]]. It would '''not''' be ok to have [[War art]] and [[War artist]] unless you can prove they are two different topics by reference re: the Wikipedia policy on [[Wikipedia:Content forking|content forks]]. The current article is a very good [[List of official war artist]] article (after some trimming) - list articles do need a short referenced introduction explaining its content and setting its parameters. That is what you have here for all intents an purposes. So all I am proposing is matching reference re: copy paste this article into [[List of official war artist]] and create any other lists that seem appropriate, rename/move the main topic to [[War art]] (with the appropriate list of "lists" in "See also"), write an article at [[War art]] that matches reference, and re-direct [[War artist]] to [[War art]]. [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] ([[User talk:Ohioartdude2|talk]]) 01:51, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
::::<s><small>I've read this twice and still don't understand what you're talking about.  I wiil re-read this tomorrow to see if I understand it differently. Perhaps if you explain it in different words, I will begin to grasp the point.  If you are trying to argue that there is not a difference between an artist and his work, I still don't know what you expect to happen next?--[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 02:43, 7 August 2010 (UTC)</small></s>

===[[Taxonomy]] argument===
I'm still not sure that I understand, but whether intended or not,  [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] does appear to be proposing a legitimate 17th century academic argument about expanding the article about [[Military art]], which is construed as a sub-type of genre painting.  Yes, [[war art]] can be classified as [[genre painting]]; but in the twentieth century, the ambit of war art has come to encompass the full range of [[art history]] [[genres]].  

The concept of the "[[hierarchy of genres]]" was compelling between the 17th and 19th centuries.  It was strongest in France, where it was associated with the [[Académie française]] which held a central role in [[academic art]]. The traditional academic genres include:
*[[genre painting]]
*[[history painting]]
*[[landscape art|landscape painting]]
*[[portrait painting]]
*[[still life|still life painting]]
It is entirely reasonable that someone with "art" in his username would hold views which are informed by an appreciation of [[academic art]]. In other words, I think I do now understand what [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] proposes and why.  Paraphrasing [[Samuel van Hoogstraten]], it appears that [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] conceives of [[war artist]]s as the "common footmen in the Army of Art" rather than acknowledging the role or the men and women integrated within the fabric of modern military forces.   

In part, [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]]'s argument is persuasive. Accordingly, I have modified the redirect for [[War art]].  Instead of redirecting to [[War artist]], the search term now redirects to [[Military art]].  [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]]'s POV is one that Wikipedia endorses in this context.

In relation to the opinions about [[War artist]] and its several spin-offs, [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] is not wrong; however, his arguments are insufficient in my view.  In this instance, the academic POV is disfavored -- see contemporary genre theories at [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genre&oldid=377207931#Antecedent_genres   Genre#Antecedent genres] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genre&oldid=377207931#Tyranny_of_genre   Genre#Tyranny of genre].  This is an instance of [[barking up the wrong tree]].

Fortunately for us, [[WP:V]] simplifies the issue at hand.  It bears repeating that "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is '''verifiability, not truth'''&mdash;whether readers can check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true."  The validity of an article about the [[War artist]] is validated by the books which incorporate the term "war artist" in the title, e.g., 
* Foot, Michael Richard Daniel. (1990). ''Art and War: Twentieth Century Warfare as Depicted by <u>War Artists</u>''. London: Headline. 10-{{ISBN|0747202869}}/13-{{ISBN|9780747202868}}; [http://www.worldcat.org/title/art-and-war-twentieth-century-warfare-as-depicted-by-war-artists/oclc/21407670  OCLC 21407670]
* Harries, Meirion and Suzie Harries. (1983). ''The <u>War Artists</u>: British Official War Art of the Twentieth Century.'' London: Michael Joseph. 10-{{ISBN|071812314X}}/13-{{ISBN|9780718123147}}; [http://www.worldcat.org/title/war-artists-british-official-war-art-of-the-twentieth-century/oclc/9888782&referer=brief_results  OCLC 9888782]
* Haworth, Jennifer. (2007). ''The Art of War: New Zealand <u>War Artists</u> in the Field 1939-1945.'' Christchurch, New Zealand: Hazard Press. 13-{{ISBN|9781877393242}}/10-{{ISBN|187739324X}}; [http://www.worldcat.org/title/art-of-war-new-zealand-war-artists-in-the-field-1939-1945/oclc/174078159?referer=di&ht=edition  OCLC 174078159]
* <s>Lanker, Brian, and Nicole Newnham (2000). ''They Drew Fire: <b>Combat Artists</b> of World War II''. New York: TV Books.	10-{{ISBN|1575000857}}/13-{{ISBN|9781575000855}}; [http://www.worldcat.org/title/they-drew-fire-combat-artists-of-world-war-ii/oclc/43245885&referer=brief_results OCLC 43245885]</s>
* Weber, John Paul (1979). ''The German <u>War Artists</u>.'' Columbia, South Carolina: Cerberus. 10-{{ISBN|0933590008}}/13-{{ISBN|9780933590007}}; [http://www.worldcat.org/title/german-war-artists/oclc/5727293  OCLC 5727293]

Over the course of the coming months, I will continue to re-visit what [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] has posted on this talk page.  His words are timely and meaningful in the process of refining consensus about what this article is and is not. --[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 15:49, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

:The "under construction" headnote was added as a way of acknowledging the reasonable points that have been put forward by [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]].  My guess is that it should probably remain in place until some kind of consensus develops about the focus and scope of this article, or if -- as [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] asserts -- this article should continue to exist. --[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 19:16, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
::I think your logic is sound to develop war artist as long as you make the article more than a list, i.e. include the social and cultural implication of "war artists" as a community, instead along with the history of the unit. I will certainly be willing to monitor your edits and can review the article as you feel it nears completion. [[User:Sadads|Sadads]] ([[User talk:Sadads|talk]]) 00:58, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
:::This article should "continue to exist", that is not the question. The question is "does it follow reference or is it original research?". Right now we have a myriad of references, none of which even state a basic definition and the current article is ignoring some very reliable secondary and tertiary sources that do provide a basic definition. That makes this article [[Wikipedia:Synthesis]] at this point and I am tagging it as such. Intro and basic definition references are the same as those used at [[Military art]] and have the same problem as noted by me at [[Talk:Military art#Problematic edits]]. [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] ([[User talk:Ohioartdude2|talk]]) 22:18, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

== Requested move ==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the move request was: no sign of any consensus for renaming [[User:Kotniski|Kotniski]] ([[User talk:Kotniski|talk]]) 10:59, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

----


[[War artist]] → {{noredirect|1=War art}} — Moving the article to [[War art]] and redirecting [[War artist]] to it seems to follow [[WP:ADJECTIVE]], and other art historical articles follow this type of title re:[[Pop art]], [[Conceptual art]], [[Video art]]. Reliable secondary sources use "War art" as the definable topic [http://books.google.com/books?id=kwg9g5vc4jUC&pg=PA7&dq=%22War+Art+is%22&cd=1#v=onepage&q=%22War%20Art%20is%22&f=false '''Art and war''' By Laura Brandon], [http://books.google.com/books?id=7t2FIJU1VX0C&pg=PA213&dq=%22War+Art+is%22&lr=&cd=20#v=snippet&q=War%20art&f=false '''War paint: art, war, state and identity in Britain, 1939-1945''' By Brian Foss]. Check against tertiary source[http://www.answers.com/topic/war-art] (online quote from "''The Oxford Companion to Military History''"[http://books.google.com/books?id=ro8YAAAAIAAJ&q=The+Oxford+Companion+to+Military+History+War+art+is+that+which+has+been+developed&dq=The+Oxford+Companion+to+Military+History+War+art+is+that+which+has+been+developed&hl=en&ei=LJ9YTPu0AY689QT9xLnsBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA]) also places the topic at this name and defines it. [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] ([[User talk:Ohioartdude2|talk]]) 16:46, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

===Survey===
:''Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with'' <code><nowiki>*'''Support'''</nowiki></code> ''or'' <code><nowiki>*'''Oppose'''</nowiki></code>'', then sign your comment with'' <code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>''. Since [[Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion|polling is not a substitute for discussion]], please explain your reasons, taking into account [[Wikipedia:Article titles|Wikipedia's policy on article titles]].''

*'''Oppose''' - It should be split and their should be articles on both topics. War artists are a distinctive subculture in the military and the art communities, and have very different objectives then regular artists(alternative title for the article could be "Combat artist" to make it more distinct and utilize the titling gave by sources such as those of the article [[United States Army Art Program]]). War art can be done by both "war artists" and regular artists. [[User:Sadads|Sadads]] ([[User talk:Sadads|talk]]) 17:37, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
:*'''comment''' - You may want to provide references to the effect that these topics are different. Reliable sources I have found so far say the topics are the same and Wikipedia does not allow for content forks. I would note that the article [[United States Army Art Program]] seems to be a descriptive article based on observation of the title in documentation, not art historical reference, has no supporting references in its introduction, and the first document cited clearly states the topic as "War art"[http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/download/csipubs/jessup/jessup_ch14.pdf]. [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] ([[User talk:Ohioartdude2|talk]]) 19:00, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
::Also, consider links found when you google search it, http://www.google.com/search?q=Combat+artist&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a, [[User:Sadads|Sadads]] ([[User talk:Sadads|talk]]) 19:11, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' -  Rationale explained above. --[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 01:05, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - [[WP:ADJECTIVE]] already covers redirects to base noun forms and reference obviously show "war art" and "war artist" are the same topic. "war art" Google Scholars at 4,670[http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=%22war+art%22&btnG=Search&as_sdt=800000000000&as_ylo=&as_vis=0], "war artist" Google Scholars at 1,270[http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=%22war+artist%22&btnG=Search&as_sdt=800000000000&as_ylo=&as_vis=0] pointing to the prime topic. [[User:SomeRandomFilmArticleEditor|SomeRandomFilmArticleEditor]] ([[User talk:SomeRandomFilmArticleEditor|talk]]) 19:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' - War art is far too general: it could include things like Che Guevara T-shirts![[User:Tomintoul|Tomintoul]] ([[User talk:Tomintoul|talk]]) 07:20, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

===Discussion===
:''Any additional comments:''
===Published work incorporating term "war artist"===
[[WP:V]] simplifies the issue at hand.  It bears repeating that "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is '''verifiability, not truth'''&mdash;whether readers can check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true."   

Is it not self-evident that the appropriateness of an article about the [[war artist]] is validated by the books which incorporate the term "war artist" in the title, e.g., 
* Foot, Michael Richard Daniel. (1990). ''Art and War: Twentieth Century Warfare as Depicted by {{fontcolor|red|yellow|<u>War Artists</u>}}''. London: Headline. 10-{{ISBN|0747202869}}/13-{{ISBN|9780747202868}}; [http://www.worldcat.org/title/art-and-war-twentieth-century-warfare-as-depicted-by-war-artists/oclc/21407670  OCLC 21407670]
* Harries, Meirion and Suzie Harries. (1983). ''The {{fontcolor|red|yellow|<u>War Artists</u>}}: British Official War Art of the Twentieth Century.'' London: Michael Joseph. 10-{{ISBN|071812314X}}/13-{{ISBN|9780718123147}}; [http://www.worldcat.org/title/war-artists-british-official-war-art-of-the-twentieth-century/oclc/9888782&referer=brief_results  OCLC 9888782]
* Haworth, Jennifer. (2007). ''The Art of War: New Zealand {{fontcolor|red|yellow|<u>War Artists</u>}} in the Field 1939-1945.'' Christchurch, New Zealand: Hazard Press. 13-{{ISBN|9781877393242}}/10-{{ISBN|187739324X}}; [http://www.worldcat.org/title/art-of-war-new-zealand-war-artists-in-the-field-1939-1945/oclc/174078159?referer=di&ht=edition  OCLC 174078159]
* Weber, John Paul (1979). ''The German {{fontcolor|red|yellow|<u>War Artists</u>}}.'' Columbia, South Carolina: Cerberus. 10-{{ISBN|0933590008}}/13-{{ISBN|9780933590007}}; [http://www.worldcat.org/title/german-war-artists/oclc/5727293  OCLC 5727293]
I hope this short list helps to sharpen issues which may need further development. --[[User:Tenmei|Tenmei]] ([[User talk:Tenmei|talk]]) 16:57, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[WP:RM|requested move]].  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->

== Orphaned references in [[:War artist]] ==

I check pages listed in [[:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]] to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for [[User:AnomieBOT/docs/OrphanReferenceFixer|orphaned references]] in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of [[:War artist]]'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for ''this'' article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

<b>Reference named "Independent":</b><ul>
<li>From [[Frauke Eigen]]: {{cite web |url=http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/art/features/women-at-war-the-female-british-artists-who-were-written-out-of-history-2264670.html |title=Women at war: The female British artists who were written out of history |publisher=[[Independent]] }}</li>
<li>From [[Linda Kitson]]: {{cite web |url=http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/art/features/women-at-war-the-female-british-artists-who-were-written-out-of-history-2264670.html |title=Women at war: The female British artists who were written out of history |date=8 April 2011 |publisher=[[Independent]] }}</li>
</ul>

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. [[User:AnomieBOT|AnomieBOT]][[User talk:AnomieBOT|<span style="color:#888800;">⚡</span>]] 12:29, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

: Fixed. It was my mistake. Thanks, AnomieBOT. Most impressive. <span style="border:2px ridge #aaf;padding:1px 8px;font:normal 10px Verdana,sans-serif;"><span style="color: #358;">[[User:Rubywine|Rubywine]]</span> . <span style="color: #35d;"><strong>[[User talk:Rubywine|talk]]</strong></span></span> 12:47, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

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== Old problem, even worse now - no reliable sources define this article ==

Revisiting this article there seem to be several problems:

*all sources defining the topic have dried up (dead links). Its sourcing style is very unreliable - shortcut links to some websites instead of listing author, title, date, etc.

*the sourcing I can find does not match the lead of this article:
**[https://www.tate.org.uk/art/art-terms/w/war-artists Tate.org] - '''War artists''' - War artists are artists who are commissioned through an official scheme to record the events of war.
**[https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780199569922.001.0001/acref-9780199569922-e-1876 The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Art Terms (2 ed.)] - '''Official War Art''' - Art commissioned in Britain during the First and Second World Wars from selected artists to record the nation at war. The scheme embraced many distinguished painters and draughtsmen..... 
**[https://www.google.com/books/edition/War_and_Conflict/MR9Jj01GcykC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=War+artist+is&pg=PA34&printsec=frontcover War and Conflict by Jane Bingham · Raintree 2006, pages 30-35] covers the topic beginning with Goya, through the American Civil War, and notes by WWI the profession of War Artist had been well established. 
**[https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Combat_Artist_in_World_War_II/i-YeBgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22War+artist%22&pg=PA200&printsec=frontcover A Combat Artist in World War II, by Edward Reep · University Press of Kentucky 2015, page 200] Note a "war artist" documents war.

So we get a basic definition: "A war artist is an artist commissioned by a government or publication, or self motivated, to document war". Its described as an occupation, not a genre. Tagging and noting the problem for cleanup. [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] ([[User talk:Ohioartdude2|talk]]) 20:40, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

The definition is is even more complicated: senior officers might instruct others to record events. See [[Arthur Moon]] as an example.[[User:Tomintoul|Tomintoul]] ([[User talk:Tomintoul|talk]]) 12:23, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

:Looks like that's a combination of government and self motivated. [[User:Ohioartdude2|Ohioartdude2]] ([[User talk:Ohioartdude2|talk]]) 22:38, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
::I think you are getting over-precise here. Is a narrow definition required?  Add those refs by all means - it's no use just adding adding a tag. I've cleaned up by removing it, among other things. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 02:14, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

== Split proposal ==

The section "War artists by nationality" takes up over three quarters of the article. It should be split into a separate article. [[User:JIP|<span style="color: #CC0000;">J</span><span style="color: #00CC00;">I</span><span style="color: #0000CC;">P</span>]] &#124; [[User talk:JIP|Talk]] 23:50, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

:I agree with the split into a separate page.[[User:Gusfriend|Gusfriend]] ([[User talk:Gusfriend|talk]]) 04:23, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
:'''Oppose''', as a large percentage of readers going to the title "War artist" will not find or know to go to another page for fuller information. Nationalities in war are an important part of each conflict, so war artists divided by nationalities (at the main 'War artist' page) covers that aspect of the events. [[User:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]] ([[User talk:Randy Kryn|talk]]) 16:00, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
:'''Oppose''' but the large number of early military/naval artists who painted genre battles on land or sea, often wholly imaginary ones, and usually without ever having gone near an actual conflict, should be somewhere else. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 17:38, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

:'''Support''' I think a separate page, ''List of war artists'', adhering to the same standards as other such 'List of ...' artist pages would be an improvement.[[User:14GTR|14GTR]] ([[User talk:14GTR|talk]]) 07:14, 14 January 2024 (UTC)