View source for Talk:Irish constitutional plebiscite, 1937

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== 'Only Plebiscite', etc, in the lead is confusing ==

As far as I can gather the big fuss made in the lead paragraph about this being the 'only plebiscite' is misleading and confusing. It sent me on a time-wasting search for what the difference with a referendum might be, only to eventually conclude that it was just a different word for Referendum, as the article title implies, but without any reliable source in support of this. I may eventually try to reword it myself, but it might be better to leave time to see if this might first be attempted by somebody more knowledgeable than me. [[User:Tlhslobus|Tlhslobus]] ([[User talk:Tlhslobus|talk]]) 15:32, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
:I think it is purely a subtle difference in the terminology used at the time. I understand that the 1937 vote was called a plebiscite as a result of the legislation that brought it about, the Plebiscite (Draft Constitution) Act 1937. Since then referendums in the Republic have been mandatory for changing or amending the constitution - it is specifically established in the Constitution that these are called referendums. The 1937 vote is called a plebiscite because that is what it was mandated to be called, just like all subsequent votes of this nature are necessarily referendums. Does that make sense? 
:The 1937 plebiscite was also the only 'referendum' to take place in the Irish Free State/Republic outside the provisions of the current Constitution, so the difference in terminology could be useful for that reason. [[User:WatermillockCommon|WatermillockCommon]] ([[User talk:WatermillockCommon|talk]]) 19:00, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
::I would support renaming the page to "Irish constitutional plebiscite, 1937" or similar, although this has been tried before... [[User:WatermillockCommon|WatermillockCommon]] ([[User talk:WatermillockCommon|talk]]) 19:06, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
:::No need to change the article title. All that is needed is a change in the wording of the lead to make it clear that all we are talking about is two different names for the same thing, or alternatively to spell out (in the lead, or a footnote, or elsewhere) any differences between the two, if such differences in fact exist, preferably supported by a reliable source in either case. Either way, the difficult bit may be to find such a reliable source. And if none is found then the re-wording becomes problematic. However I am now going to try a wording change which may do part of the required job. [[User:Tlhslobus|Tlhslobus]] ([[User talk:Tlhslobus|talk]]) 20:54, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
:::Done, although the new wording is still a bit awkward; but at least it is both self-evidently true (so no citation is needed), and it no longer appears to imply that there is some significant unexplained difference between this and subsequent referendums, though it doesn't explicitly exclude that possibility either. If such a significant difference does exist, and is backed by a reliable source, then that can be added by somebody else, along with the source. Or if a reliable source says the only difference is the name then that can be said explicitly by somebody else, citing the source.[[User:Tlhslobus|Tlhslobus]] ([[User talk:Tlhslobus|talk]]) 21:12, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

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== Article title ==

{{user link|Number 57}} has [[Special:Diff/665772999|twice]]  [[Special:Diff/818264121|moved]] the article from [[:Constitution of Ireland plebiscite]] to [[Irish constitutional plebiscite, 1937]] citing [[WP:NC-GAL#Elections and referendums]], which states:
:When creating a new article with a name that might refer to another existing entity for which an article is not yet written, take care to "pre-disambiguate" it, and create a disambiguation page (listing your new article and red links to yet-to-be written articles with identical or similar titles).

There is no other entity which might be called "Irish constitutional plebiscite". [[Constitution of Ireland plebiscite]] redirects here. [[Irish constitutional plebiscite]] does not exist; if someone should create it, it would redirect here (I would do so but that might currently be considered tendentious). None of the later constitutional referendums is ever called a plebiscite. A simple hatnote should suffice rather than needless disambiguation:
:<nowiki>{{about|the 1937 plebiscite approving the draft constitution|later referendums on amendments to the constitution|Amendments to the Constitution of Ireland}}</nowiki>
{{about|the 1937 plebiscite approving the draft constitution|later referendums on amendments to the constitution|Amendments to the Constitution of Ireland}}
[[User:Jnestorius|jnestorius]]<sup>([[User talk:Jnestorius|talk]])</sup> 15:53, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
:All election and referendum articles include the year in the title – it's part of the naming format for such articles, regardless of how many referendums/plebiscites have been held on the same topic (see e.g. [[Hungarian migrant quota referendum, 2016]] or [[Bermudian same-sex union and marriage referendum, 2016]], or just look in [[:Category:2016 referendums]] and similar).<small> And just to correct the point above, I have not twice moved it to Irish constitutional plebiscite, 1937; I moved it back to [[Irish constitutional referendum, 1937]] (its original title) in 2015, and today I moved it to its current title after it had been moved away from its original title again (as it appears that editors want the word "plebiscite" to appear in the title).</small> Cheers, [[User:Number 57|<span style="color:orange;">Number</span>]] [[User talk:Number 57|<span style="color:green;">5</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Number 57|<span style="color:blue;">7</span>]] 16:26, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
::My apologies; I see now that the correct bulletpoint is...:
::*For elections and referendums, use the format "Demonym type election/referendum, date" (e.g. Canadian federal election, 1867, Faroese independence referendum, 1946 etc).
::...given which, I won't press for a rename (though I still favour one). I will note, however, that the standardisation achieved by the existing convention is spotty at best:
::*The article name's use of "plebiscite" already breaches the convention 
::*There seems no consistency of naming between e.g. [[Bermudian same-sex union and marriage referendum, 2016]], [[Bolivian constitutional referendum, 2016]], [[Bulgarian referendum, 2016]], and those in [[:Category:Referendums in Australia]]
::*It seems useful to distinguish referendums relating to an entirely new constitution from those relating to a mere amendment to the constitution, which the ambiguous label "constitutional referendum" fails to provide.   
::[[User:Jnestorius|jnestorius]]<sup>([[User talk:Jnestorius|talk]])</sup> 17:07, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
:::Plebiscite and referendum are interchangeable as far as I'm aware (there are other articles that use plebiscite in place of referendum, apparently dependent on how it is most commonly described). I agree that the Australian ones are a mess and were probably created by someone not familiar with the guideline (the ones with parentheses in the title appear to be 'sub-articles' of the main ones; I'm not entirely sure they are needed and quite a bit of merging could take place). [[User:Number 57|<span style="color:orange;">Number</span>]] [[User talk:Number 57|<span style="color:green;">5</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Number 57|<span style="color:blue;">7</span>]] 17:11, 2 January 2018 (UTC)