Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles

Londonderry/Derry

The current situation regarding the use of these two names which was decided back in 2004 isn’t really appropriate. Effectively one side of the political divide can have the city while the other has the county. It’s perfectly acceptable to use both in Wikipedia articles just as people living there currently do today. By favouring one over the other you fuel resentment. It’s also appropriate to include the name of the county or city in the other recognised languages, people worked hard to have Ulster-Scots and Irish recognised in N.Ireland as languages which is why they were recognised in the Good Friday Agreement. Superlonghurst (talk) 16:25, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

You say "Effectively one side of the political divide can have the city while the other has the county", but then suggest that that is "favouring one over the other". I am at a loss to see the basis on which you suggest that the latter follows from the former. If, for example, there was a rule that the city could be described both as 'City of Derry' and 'City of Londonderry' and the county could be described as both 'County Derry' and 'County Londonderry', then that would be even-handed between both sides of the political divide, but would lead to endless edits. On the other hand, if there were a rule that the city could only be described as 'City of Derry' but the county could be described as both 'County Derry' and 'County Londonderry', then that would *not* be even-handed between both sides of the political divide, as well as leading to endless edits. Likewise if there were a rule that the city could be described both as 'City of Derry' and 'City of Londonderry' but the county could only be described as 'County Londonderry'. Also, the Irish and Ulster-Scots names of the city do appear at Derry and the Irish and Ulster-Scots names of the county do appear at County Londonderry. They should not appear every time that either the city or the county is mentioned - Wikipedia does not for example follow every reference to Dublin city or county with (Irish:Baile Átha Cliath). Alekksandr (talk) 17:01, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

It is favouring one over the other. Not everyone that searches for the city or the county will necessarily look at both. They should appear each time the the city or the county is mentioned to maintain a level of impartiality.

Regarding endless edits you’re far more likely to experience this if Wikipedia appears to favour one side of the political divide. You will always get more extreme people however that refuse to accept the the other side of the coin. Superlonghurst (talk) 17:14, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Anyone who searches for "City of Londonderry" or "Londonderry City" will be redirected to Derry. While anyone who searches for "County Derry" will be redirected to "County Londonderry". I note that you suggest that "both ... should appear each time the the city or the county is mentioned". I feel that, if e.g. Martin McGuinness' article stated that "he was second-in-command of the IRA in Derry/Londonderry," there would be many objections from "one side of the political divide". I am still at a loss as to the basis on which you suggest that the current policy "Effectively one side of the political divide can have the city while the other has the county", favours "one side of the political divide". I feel that the current policy attempts to avoid favouring either side of the political divide.Alekksandr (talk) 17:29, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes someone searching for Londonderry will be directed to Derry which might upset them. Likewise someone searching for County Derry will be redirected to County Londonderry which again might cause offence. There will always be objections however we live in a time of compromise. For the benefit of fairness and consistency I think it would be better if Mr McGuinness’s page showed both. I wonder

Since you’re having trouble understanding I’ll try and explain it a little clearer. By referring to the city as Derry that favours the nationalist side at the expense of the Unionists. By referring to the County as Londonderry that favours the Unionist side at the expense of the Nationists. However if it was Londonderry/Derry and County Londonderry/County Derry respectively that would be fairer.

Being fair means you have to treat everyone equally in all things the way it works at the moment is selective and divisive. That’s not how it works in N.Ireland, Wikipedia needs to catch up. Superlonghurst (talk) 17:55, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:NOTCENSORED we're here to provide an encyclopedia, not to worry about people's feelings and I strongly doubt that anyone who would be "upset" by the choice of one name or the other will be oblivious to the fact that the alternative name exists. The current compromise is one of the most durable and well respected ones I've ever seen on Wikipedia and infinitely preferable to any stroke city alternatives. There are people who find it easy to get offended by everything, it's a hard old world, no? Valenciano (talk) 09:35, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Remember before it was County Londonderry it was mostly County Coleraine. Unlike with the city, there is no historical precedent to call the county Derry, whereas we have gone with the historical precedent when it comes to the city by using its original name and the name the city has elected to call itself internally. As a result referring to the county as Derry is purely colloquial and has had no basis in any official history or the like, unlike with the city where it's clearly more complex as it was renamed. Additionally please do not change the country in articles from Northern Ireland to Ireland or refer to it as N. Ireland, this shows a bias in your editing by attempting to diminish Northern Ireland or remove it altogether. Canterbury Tail talk 01:36, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

History is not the issue here its what the people actually living there refer to the county and the city as. There are people living in Londonderry/Derry who find it offensive that the city is only referred to at Derry. By using both names it doesn’t show a bias on Wikipedia’s part to either side. Changing Northern Ireland to N. Ireland is not diminishing the country at all. On the contrary it does the opposite, referring to it as “Northern Ireland” still causes confusion for people globally who mistake it for meaning the north of Ireland. Using N.Ireland follows an internationally recognised precedent for example N.Korea and S.Korea. Superlonghurst (talk) 01:50, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't think Wikipedia article pages ever refer to Northern Ireland or North Korea as N.Ireland or N.Korea. ~ Ablaze (talk) 08:56, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia probably doesn’t but it’s quite common outside of Wikipedia. Superlonghurst (talk) 20:08, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

The thing is we are on Wikipedia. Is it quite common outside of Wikipedia? I think you'd find it difficult to find a style guide that recommends N.Ireland or N.Korea or examples on websites but please prove me wrong. ~ Ablaze (talk) 06:55, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I dunno about style guides but it’s common here in the UK and Ireland it’s also used for major sporting events. Like I said it can cause confusion, it’s as if people don’t know that N.Ireland exists as a separate country from the rest of Ireland.

Anyway that’s a separate point to the Londonderry/Derry point I was raising. That both should be used for the city and the county. Superlonghurst (talk) 07:59, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Dublin University --> Trinity College Dublin

I would propose that there should be a stated recommendation that references be made to the more common name of Trinity College Dublin rather than to the University of Dublin or Dublin University. See, for example, this edit to Michael C. Latham. This is particularly relevant to biographical articles, in recounting where someone studied. Exceptions I'd envisage would be

• recipients of honorary degrees;
• references to the university structure itself;
• sports teams, where the name of the club has DU in its name; and
• references to the constituency, where the link should be to Dublin University (constituency).

Iveagh Gardens (talk) 13:54, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Given the aforementioned provisos, I would be fully in support of this. Xx78900 (talk) 08:39, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Considering it's a pre-eminent university, and for others we frequently reference the colleges rather than the university (such as for Cambridge and Oxford) I don't see an issue with this. The fact it only has one college is neither here nor there, people study at Trinity College, not Dublin University. Canterbury Tail talk 09:18, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Same for me. This matter has troubled even members and senior officials of the University / College, and top authorities, including the courts, over more than 150 years, and most have concluded that there is little (or no) practical gap between the two, but they do have technically separate aspects. Hon. degrees are the one clear functional example, yes, and the rest - organisational structure (and appointment and internal electoral matters, and course creation) and legalities, the constituency and the clubs, are clear. I would add:

* coats of arms (and possibly other symbolic material)

* roles attached to one or the other entity, e.g. the Chancellorship and its deputies, Visitorships

On the most commonly encountered case, degrees, I think we can be firm - to all, for most purposes, these are Trinity degrees (those trying to insist on "Univ. of Dublin" just because it has "University" in it, can be disregarded), as the common name principle applies (and TCD is a university, despite all the fluffiness about UoD/DU). SeoR (talk) 09:22, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I'd support this too. Especially instead of Dublin University, which redirects to University of Dublin. There's a hatnote at University of Dublin for good reason: the potential confusion with UCD and DCU. Also, use of Trinity College Dublin in biographical articles is consistent with Category:Alumni of Trinity College Dublin, as Michael C. Latham is now. An interesting article is Francis O'Reilly: all three forms are used, as he was a graduate, chancellor and honorary degree recipient! Declangi (talk) 09:28, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, "DU" is a bit of an invention - if it's anything, it's "University of Dublin". But in the famous Reid judgment, the conclusion of the Master of the Rolls was pretty clear "...There was no separate incorporation of [the University]. If there had been, it must have been by Royal Charter ... There was no express creation of it apart from the College. The College had the power of electing the Chancellor and the other officers, and of defining and determining the conferring of degrees. The College was supreme, and the University was a branch or department of it, if indeed the College itself was not more acourately the University." So the whole University limited structure is really more of a Victorian confection put around the real ancient TCD. SeoR (talk) 09:35, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Did not know they had separate Arms. But on the law, I'll up the ante: the Acts of Union referenced this way, when it came to the 100 seats for Ireland at Westminster 'two for eaoh county in Ireland, two for the city of Dublin, two for the city of Cork, one for the University of Trinity College, and one for each of the most considerable cities, towns, and boroughs'. Aside from the wonderful vagueness, the giving of the same number of MPs to Dublin and Cork, and those in turn having just one more than, say, Portlaoise, or Trinity, it's a pretty telling description of the University, no?217.75.5.42 (talk) 09:48, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

And now that TUD is a thing... Wish Dublin had been more varied in its choice of letters. TCD, UCD, DCU, TUD, DU... at least BIMM, RCSI, and NCAD are distinct. Xx78900 (talk) 14:50, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

If we were to include it on the MOS:IRELAND page, should be put it in the biographical articles or the place names section? I would propose the text:

Unless the specific context requires, refer to Trinity College Dublin rather than the University of Dublin or Dublin University. It may be relevant to mention the university in the case of the Dublin University constituency, in the case of sports clubs which use Dublin University in their name, or a position specifically related to the university, such as Chancellor of the University of Dublin.

Iveagh Gardens (talk) 15:37, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

The text looks good. For placement, maybe the "Place names" section is preferable, because of the use of UoD/DU beyond biographical articles. Thanks, Declangi (talk) 22:37, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

With a cross-reference / cross-link at bios. SeoR (talk) 22:40, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

FWIW, following this I've edited those pages that relate to education or employment to mention TCD only. I didn't edit references to honorary degrees, I'm somewhat neutral on what the better style is, although I could see a case on the basis of familiarity to refer to TCD only. But they're less relevant to biography in any case, being more of a footnote to someone's career. –Iveagh Gardens (talk) 11:37, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Great; thanks! I’d leave the hon. degrees; AFAIK, while the two bodies may be one for most people, and the courts, insofar as there is a separation, the University entities do have a special role in those degrees. SeoR (talk) 11:47, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Corran Purdon ‎and Derry

Is "Derry (which he references as Londonderry in his autobiography)" consistent with the naming convention on the city or an attempt to circumvent it? Kathleen's bike (talk) 17:00, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

In normal circumstances I'd say that's trying to circumvent it. It doesn't matter what they call it personally, otherwise we'd have this kind of things scattered all over the place for Derry, County Londonderry, heck even Northern Ireland. I don't think however a user called Leitrim Lad is necessary trying to circumvent specifically, but it's ultimately irrelevant information anyway whatever the article subject happened to call a place. Canterbury Tail talk 18:11, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

You might think a name like Leitrim Lad might suggest otherwise, but they have tried "Londonderry" followed by "Londonderry" followed by "Derry/Londonderry" followed by "Derry (Londonderry)" followed by "Derry (which he references as Londonderry in his autobiography)" which seems to demonstrate an unusually strong interest in the retention of the word in question. Kathleen's bike (talk) 20:47, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

MOS:FLAGS discussion with regard to Ulster again

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see Talk:Ulster Scots people#Why the flags?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:41, 1 September 2023 (UTC)