Talk:Northern, Central and Southern Vietnam

Excuse me,Vietnam was reunited in 1976, not 1975,1975 is just ending of Vietnam war — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.248.75.21 (talk) 04:47, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

This's so stub,let's add more;bye. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.248.75.21 (talk) 04:49, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Intro/history

I don't think there's a problem with duplicating the intro in a subsection, since it expands on them. If you feel that they are redundant, feel free to consolidate them. DHN 06:01, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Differences

OK, it has the historical reasons for differences but now we need some differences in language (i.e. pronunciation), cuisine, Chinese/Khmer influence, non-Viet ethnic groups, climate, etc., plus stereotypes. Badagnani 06:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I guess you can start with the AP article. Other info I have are from personal experience, so not really citable. True fact: my mom is really annoyed by the Northern accent. DHN 06:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

LOL! I personally resent that, the Hanoian accent is beautiful to my ears. :P I'll try to do my part to contribute to this article, although it seems to be lacking any mention of the other main region: Central Vietnam.Annamite tonkinese 22:42, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Great edits, Annamite tonkinese. Uh-oh, forgot Central Vietnam. Well, as the nation was divided in half at least twice during its long history, it was also divided in three ways by the French (Tonkin, Annam, Cochinchine). Central Vietnam should probably be mentioned in a new section. Badagnani 02:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Haha thanks! :P There should probably be a separate article created for Central Vietnam (like there is for North and South Vietnam) but the article "Northern and Southern Vietnam" is probably fine as it is. I'm a little scared that I'll get a scolding for the stereotypes section though..hahaha. And I just realized I don't actually know many stereotypes for central people.. Annamite tonkinese 03:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Is there no Central Vietnam article? See Northern and southern China#Stereotypes for more on similar stereotypes in China. Badagnani 03:38, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Stereotypes

I see someone took out all of my edits and even reverted the history section (although DHN later readded everything back)..I understand that the stereotypes section can be received as controversial, but the other sections (linguistic differences, cuisine, clothing, climate) are well sourced (and well known) and accurate as far as I know, there should be no reason for their removal. And even if the stereotypes section is controversial or arguable, these are actually widely agreed upon from what I've personally seen and they are what they are, just stereotypes and generalizations that shouldn't be taken to heart. Annamite tonkinese 23:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed some controversials lines, in fact i could change the stereotypes section (eg: the norths are considered more cultured and thoughtful. Most of famous Vietnameses (scientist, writer, leader etc...) come from the north... That's why Hanoi is alway the centre of Vietnam, in the French regime, all the universities in Indochina were based in Hanoi ...). But i don't since i think the stereotypes section should be completely removed! Now the distance between the north and the south is more and more closed but not the distance between the winner and the loser. Should we have an article about the loser Vienameses? :P 58.187.131.24 08:48, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Those are good points. What do the other editors think of these points? I think it cannot be denied that many Vietnamese, of both north and south, hold stereotypes about northerners and southerners. Many of those came from the source that is given in the article. Whether they're correct or not, if they are widely held they have notability. Badagnani 08:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I thought my stereotypes section was balanced enough..I wrote both good and "bad" stereotypes about both sides. "Conservative and traditional" are good points I thought about the north..and they are very true stereotypes held by a lot of people..but sadly so is stingy lol. In fact I think all of the stereotypes I put up were pretty basic and widely known and in fact not even controversial in that regard..but you just removed the entire section. By the way, your addition of the romanized d=z only applies to northerners and not southerners which the article already clarified but you added a confusing bit. I won't bother reverting edits since it seems you just keep on reverting back anyway..I don't care for edit wars.Annamite tonkinese 14:35, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I dont think "Conservative and traditional" are good points, and more, only good points to say about the northerners and what about the bads of the southerners? you say nothing!!!, that section clearly violates NPOV! 58.187.147.135 18:50, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the anonymous user is following the government's POV in suppressing any information that indicates that southerners hold some antagonism towards the North. In their view, all ethnic groups in Vietnam are "fraternal brothers" who benefited greatly from the "August Revolution" and the Party's and State's glorious doctrine. When many northerners moved south after the war, countless jokes were made at their expense in the South (regarding hygiene, familiarity with technology, and (lack of) erudition, etc.). These jokes have been collected and published overseas. Songs extolling the virtues of the Party and Uncle Ho were parodied and frequently sung by children. These occurrences are well-known, but never mentioned in Vietnamese media. DHN 15:26, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The stereotypes section is clearly NPOV [anyway the winner takes it all in Vietnam :P haha i dont want to say that but if you two do as the losers... :-L ] 58.187.147.135 18:56, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Cochinchina

We need to examine the claim that Cochinchina was the only one of the three parts of French Indochina that was directly ruled by France. Of course, it was the first to be taken over (in the 1850s, as opposed to the 1870s and 1880s for Annam and Tonkin). Badagnani 09:05, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I thought this part wasn't even up for debate and it needs to be re-added. That anonymous user mentions in the edit history section that this is an absurd claim because Hanoi was the capital of French Indochina..but that's ONLY IN NAME. Of course you can find some of the French colonial legacy in any part of the country including in the north, but it's quite obvious to most Vietnamese I've met that southerners have always been much more westernized. In a novel by a northerner about the conflict, there's an account of her father's studies at Hanoi university that included Vietnamese students from all regions (mostly) and a few students from the other Indochina countries (Cambodia and Laos) and how the Cochinchine/Southern Vietnamese students were the most westernized by FAR. The book mentions specifically about France's policy of "Conquer and divide". At that time you couldn't even roam freely between the three regions without a passport and the division between people of the three regions only grew more and more!! The students from different regions often couldn't even get along and would argue over simple things like the menu!! Southern Vietnamese students on saturday nights (break from classes) would hit the town in western suits while Central and Northern students stuck to their traditional costumes!! And it's not even just this one book but I've read many accounts and personal ones as well~!Annamite tonkinese 14:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

You can easily find that there are more French colonial legacies in Hanoi than in Saigon! The old buildings for exemple, Hanoi has much more old french architectures than Saigon, try google for the ideas of foreigner tourists and journalists, such as in NY Times [1]Thirty years later, I found myself experiencing an enormous disconnect. Hanoi was not at all as I had pictured it. Instead of being a squalid third world capital struggling to recover from years of war and isolation, it was a stylish, European-influenced metropolis with manicured lakeside promenades, tree-lined boulevards, ancient pagodas and French-colonial buildings painted in a peeling palette of jade, turquoise and burgundy. and [2] Compared with the stately elegance of Hanoi's French colonial streets and cafes, Ho Chi Minh City (formerly Saigon) remains brasher, more outgoing and more energetic.

and then [3]Historians liken the life-giving Red River -- its banks crowded with green rice paddies and farms -- to the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, a cradle of civilization. Even when the nation's capital moved to Hue under the Nguyen dynasty in 1802, the city of Hanoi continued to flourish, especially after the French took control in 1888 and modeled the city's architecture to their tastes, lending an important aesthetic to the city's rich stylistic heritage, even expanding the city and adding rail connections over the Long Bien Bridge in 1902. In 1954, after the French departed, Hanoi was declared Vietnam's capital once again. The city boasts more than 1,000 years of history, and that of the past few hundred years is marvelously preserved.

If you agree that the France's policy was "Conquer and divide", how can you say that southern Vietnam was much more exposed to French influence because it was the only one of the three parts of French Indochina that was directly ruled by France. In fact, all were under the French rule, differ only by name. And more, you have no fact to back your opinion about the French influence in Cocochina! 58.187.63.108 17:16, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

You're not denying that the South was colonized decades before the North? And is not Roman Catholicism (introduced by the French) more prevalent in the South than the North? Badagnani 02:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

• taken out* because I was WRONG!! I had originally thought the catholic influence was stronger in the South but originally it was indeed stronger in the north and it wasn't until later that a significant number of southerners were converted, and then even after that as DHN mentioned a large percentage of northern catholics moved south. Please read near the bottom of this page for the link where I got this info (Sorry again, I was wrong, though I must say this surprises me)

That's not necessarily the case. After 1954, around 80% of the North's Catholics fled South. In my experience, most Catholics speak with a Northern accent. DHN 03:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the South was colonized decades before the North, but simply because there were fewer people there and the control of the emperor was looser, soon after that Hanoi came back to it's long-time position as a center of Vietnam. 58.187.131.215 08:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

If the argument is that Catholicism was historically more prevalent in the South because the North had less direct French influence, how did the northerners become Christianized in such large numbers? I should add that the Vietnamese priest in my area (Cleveland, Ohio, USA), Father Lan, is himself from northern Vietnam. Badagnani 03:38, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, my dad's family is catholic and is originally from the north too, lol.

<<EDIT>>Ok, I did a bit of research and it turns out I was wrong about the catholicism influence so I apologize haha >_<

(I edited my little rant above haha because of my error :P) You can see the link to the article here:

http://ceris.metropolis.net/Virtual%20Library/community/pfeifer2/pfeifer2chapt3.html

It discusses how missionairies initially had more success in the north, so on so forth. However, I still say South Vietnam was more westernized (including before the American presence so of course=>French). Either way, I gotta take a break from wiki, spending wayy too much time on here. Also I hate long extended disputes so I'm leaving this to whoever else wants to discuss.Annamite tonkinese 04:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Why did the anon state that rat is consumed primarily in the South? Some websites, such as this one, state that it is an important food for weddings in the Hanoi area. The rats come from the fields in the countryside rather than the city. Badagnani 02:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

of course in the north, one can eat rats but not as many as in the south, since the south is a new land, it's easy to understand why people here have more strange dishes, they eat everything they found including rat, bat, ... you can google "thịt chuột" (rat meat) and will find many articles about this special dish in the south such as [4] and [5]. Nevertheless, i think cuisine is like culture, one cannot say it's good or bad. More i dont argree about the idea: "the northerners eat dog meat because they are poorer!", eating dog meat is a tradition in Eas Asia: Korea, China and Vietnam! They eat dog meat because the Confucianism consider all animals equal, and have no position beside men. eg in general, you cannot enter a one's house with your dog. So i remove the sentences about dog meat and rats. Sorry for my poor English. 58.187.131.215 07:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Pho

I removed some words about Pho! He know nothing about it! The only special thing in the South's cuisine is that it more strange! That's why a famous Vietnamese writer Vu Bang, he wrote two books, perhaps the most noted books about Vietnamese cuisine: Mon ngon Ha noi (Hanoi's delicious dishes) and Mon la mien Nam (odd dishes of the South). Since South Vietnam is a new land, the cuisine is more exotic than that in the North where people is more conservative. For example the ingredients of Pho are chosen very carefully, they just don't put many things in Pho to keep its own flavor so Pho is always best at Hanoi.

In general, that user he focuses on the foreign influences to make the comparaison between the two, i totaly disagare with this. The main reason is that: the South is a new land, the tradition there is not so strong as that in the north. 132.203.114.166 19:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, i would like to clarify my idea on Pho The article says: ... Northern Vietnamese cuisine is less bountiful in ingredients by far when compared to that of the South, due to the North being historically poorer. (As an example, Northern phở, or beef noodle soup, is garnished with scallions, while Southern phở is typically served with a variety of herbs.)... Southern cuisine, with its metropolitan flavor and more numerous foreign influences, is much more diverse and liberal in its use of ingredients as previously mentioned...

1. It is completely wrong to say: Northern phở, or beef noodle soup is garnished with scallions while Southern phở is typically served with a variety of herbs because the North is historically poorer. As i mention above: the ingredients of Pho are chosen very carefully, they just don't put many things in Pho to keep its own flavor. And in general, [the dishes in] the Norths are very strict in chosing ingredients. You can google or ask someone about that.

2. I doubt about the metropolitan flavor and more numerous foreign influences that make south cuisine much more diverse and liberal In fact, there a only some chineses influences that i keep in the article. (More you can google to check that Hanoi has more French cuisine influences than Saigon, i.g: the cafes, French bread (baguette - that in Saigon called North bread, ...)

So, in my opinion, the main reason: the South is a new land, the tradition there is not as strong as that in the north. 132.203.114.166 00:21, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

It is absolutely correct to say that in Hanoi if one orders pho one will expect to get green onions (scallions) served with it, and not other herbs (unless it is a place serving "southern style" pho). It is also correct to say that if one orders pho in Saigon one will get basil, mint, ngo gai, maybe also diếp cá or tía tô, etc. Please restore this text, which was unjustifiably removed. In fact, from what you write you seem to agree that this is true. So why remove it (not just once or twice, but dozens of times)? This doesn't help our readers distinguish northern pho from southern pho at all, and thus is wrong to remove. If you disagree that the North uses fewer herbs with its pho because it is "historically poorer," then explain why it uses fewer herbs rather than deleting the discussion of pho garnishes entirely. You are not helping the article by such actions.

On the issue of pho itself, one cannot claim that southern cuisine is influenced by China but northern cuisine is not. Pho itself, the word probably comes from Chinese fen and this type of noodle made from rice was developed in Guangdong in the 19th century. So in fact northern cuisine also has Chinese influences. Pad Thai is a similarly Chinese-influenced noodle dish from Thailand.

Finally, you agree that southern cuisine is more diverse in its influences and northern cuisine is more judicious and careful in its choice of ingredients. The text already said that. So why did you, again, remove all of the text to this effect? Again, you are not helping the article. In fact, none of us can understand why you consistently, time and time again, remove text that you state you agree with. It just doesn't make sense, and does not help the article for our readers. And your statement that "The only special thing in the South's cuisine is that it more strange!" undermines everything you say, because this is a strongly POV statement. Badagnani 01:11, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

It's also very rude to use exclamation marks and say "You know nothing about pho!" It is not nice to insult other editors, who you don't know personally and who may in fact know quite a lot about pho. Badagnani 01:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

You can put some garlic in your gateaus (!) to say that you are richer? :P =)) Infact i removed only some words that has no fact backs! 132.203.114.166 15:25, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, I think you should re-read my opinions, you have no answer to my 2 issues that i cited above? 132.203.114.166 15:32, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Restore the informstion about pho garnishes, which is true, to show that you are editing here in good faith (rather than simply to minimize or eliminate anything you think is placing northern Vietnamese in a poor light) and then we will discuss. Badagnani 16:38, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Note that we dont say about pho in this article, we say about the difference bw 2 cuisines and you cannot deny the two issues that i cited above! 132.203.114.166 21:06, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Nam Tien

Nam tien

"Nam tien" means "southward expansion" and is euphemism for "we're gonna take the land of the Chams and Khmers because their governments are weak". It's a long process, starting from around the 11th century and ending during the Nguyen Dynasty. The map on the right gives a brief overview of the process. During the 18th and early 19th century, Laos and Cambodia were merely protectorates of Dai Nam (Vietnam) and Siam (Thailand). DHN 06:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

My, that's an extremely, extremely interesting map. The Mekong Delta has only been Vietnamese for a few hundred years? In the U.S., we have a similar concept, that of Manifest Destiny. It meant for the people who believed in it that it was okay to displace and push into the sea the American Indians. Badagnani 06:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the Khmers are still miffed about losing their land (the Khmer Rouge initiated border skirmishes during the late 1970s ostensibly to regain the land they lost 200 years ago). The island Phu Quoc is still being claimed as Cambodian territory (called Koh Tral) by some Cambodians (although the government no longer claim it). DHN 06:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

French influence

It seems strange that France or French influence is not mentioned at all in this article. That would seem an important influence on both Northern and Southern Vietnam, in their own particular ways. Badagnani 19:23, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Try google "French influence" + "Hanoi" and you will find many articles about that, here is an exemple, just to say that someone that boasts about the metropolitan of Saigon's cuisine is ridiculous.

http://vietnam-travel .suite101.com/article.cfm/vietnams_gallic_capital_hanoi: ... It's not Paris, but it has an unmistakable French air, not least in the smell of freshly baked baguettes. The best legacy left by the French was their cuisine, and the bread, the croissants, the cheeses and the wines, are the best in Asia... 132.203.114.166 21:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Dialect/accent

Why does the article make a point out of saying that calling language variants dialects rather than accents is "erroneous"? There are significant differences in vocabulary and phonology. And even if the difference was only related to phonology, saying dialect would not be incorrect.
—Leif Arne Storset 08:14, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, the South people deserves have a name just like Cantonese. It could be Southese or Southmese. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 42.113.164.189 (talk) 16:28, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

I beg to differ though. There is variation in phonology, in particular between the many accents of the northern and central regions, but there is no actually unique vocabulary to any region. The vocabulary of Vietnamese is generally standardized and the same words exist everywhere, in varying degrees. Le Anh-Huy (talk) 09:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

There are absolutely different words for the same thing between north and south. I encounter this on nearly a daily basis. In some cases, people from one area don't even know the term from the other area, and they're not slang terms. For example, the different names for cassava or sweetsop. Badagnani (talk) 20:09, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Vietnamese Wikipedia's articles

There are two articles in Vietnamese Wikipedia - vi:Nam Bộ Việt Nam (南部越南 / Southern Vietnam) and vi:Bắc Bộ Việt Nam (北部越南 / Northern Vietnam). -✉ Hello World! 17:49, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

They're about the regions, not the pre-1976 nation-states, correct? Badagnani 17:53, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

How about these two? vi:Miền Nam Việt Nam (also Southern Vietnam), vi:Miền Bắc Việt Nam (also Northern Vietnam) and vi:Miền Trung Việt Nam (Central Vietnam) ? I think the corresponding Chinese for Miền Nam is 南面, but I'm not sure. Furthermore, which one corresponds to which English article?--✉ Hello World! 18:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Miền Nam Việt Nam and Miền Bắc Việt Nam are general regions with no set boundaries. Nam Bộ Việt Nam and Bắc Bộ Việt Nam were historical administrative regions. The 1954-1975 states are known by their official names in vi.wiki. DHN 18:29, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

How about vi:Bắc Kỳ, vi:Trung Kỳ and vi:Nam Kỳ? They are historical name, right? -✉ Hello World! 18:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

They correspond to Tonkin, Annam (French colony), and Cochin China, respectively. DHN 18:37, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be important to add a discussion of all of these Vietnamese terms in the article--can you do it? Badagnani 18:31, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Former Saigon?!

Way does wikipedia always refer to Ho Chi Minh City as Ho Chi Minh City (Formerly known as SaiGon.).? Wikipedia does not use Beijing (Former Beiping.). --82.134.154.25 (talk) 11:04, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Despite of the official name of this city, the name 'Saigon' is still being used by people in their daily day. You could see that even the airport has the code SGN not HCMCN =D. So this clarification is necessary.--AM ^(talk) 04:33, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

West vs Communism??

It does not makes sense, Communism is a Western ideology, like Islam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheBr0s (talk • contribs) 23:13, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Can anybody make a paragraph on North & South Vietnam denomination in the context of the cold war?

I'm watching a documentary on the cold war with the USA, Communism, etc. and they're talking about North and South Vietnam; some bullet points:

• South-Vietnam and the Vietcong - National Liberation Army against the Anti-communist but autocratic government of ...
• North Vietnam - Ho-chi Min sharing power with the aggressive Lei ZWUNG (?) who wanted to reunite North and South Vietnam.

Thy --SvenAERTS (talk) 01:42, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

This is already in the Historical Context section. The "aggressive" name you heard was Lê Duẩn. DHN (talk) 18:21, 29 March 2018 (UTC)