Talk:Cheese-eating surrender monkeys

monkey?

The "Monkey" part likely refers to the tale of residents of Hartlepool mistaking a Monkey for a French spy.

• This is at the very least a synthesis of ideas not supported in any way by the (unreliable) reference backing it up. I have removed it. It seems likely to me that the reason "monkey" is in there is because monkeys are funny and the Simpsons is a comedy. While I have heard this story before, it is not well known in the States, and it seems highly unlikely that this is what the writers had in mind. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:09, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Well I added it, and indeed you are correct, I can't back it with any particular source that is what the writer of the simpsons script was writing (Though I'll note it only says "popularized", not created.

However (1) Are monkeys particular known for surrender? Can't see where the monkey comes from if not something like this (and the story about Hartelepool is actually very well known, don't confuse "I don't know about it and neither do my friends" with "is not well known in the states")

I also added this, but it was removed. As to the phrase not being well known in the States, it was said by Willy, who's Scottish, and it's possible the tale actually originated near Peterhead, in Scotland. Linda (talk) 21:57, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

(2) quote "The "surrender" element of the phrase refers to the perceived proclivity of the French to surrender in military confrontations." - I can't see any source from this which says it's where the writer got it from. etc.

The whole section is largely conjecture. --81.104.39.44 (talk) 19:33, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• I'll grant that the bit about "surrender" is not properly sourced, but frankly it just doesn't seem as unbelievable as your assertion about the Hartlepool monkey. (aside:I love that story, be it true or false, related to this or not, it's just funny) There is/was a perception among certain segments of the American population that the French are cowardly and surrender at the drop of a hat. American involvement in Vietnam after the French lost control, and French opposition to our lovely little war in Iraq probably helped to keep this perception alive. This item [1], predictably from Fox News, shows the attitude some folks had right before the war started, as does the whole Freedom Fries foolishness. The true irony here is that Matt Groening is known to be a liberal, and often pokes fun at Rupert Murdoch, Fox, and the Republican Party, and certainly never intended way back in 1995 that this phrase would be used in such a manner. Beeblebrox (talk) 06:32, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Not as unbelivable in your eyes you mean. As I said the story about the monkey is very well known (the Team mascot for Hartlepool football club is based on it), and I can't see any great plausible connection between surrender and monkeys. Are monkeys well known for surrender? Or could the relation be as my take, between the French and monkeys. I don't think the part needs restoring as it is unsourced, but no more or less so than the surrender part, the standard for inclusion you seem to be applying however is, "I agree with it", which is not wikipedia's standard. --81.104.39.44 (talk) 07:10, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

• Well, I supplied a ref for the surrender part, and I added it to the article. I don't think there is a connection between "surrender" and "monkeys". As I said before, monkeys are funny, and the Simpsons is a comedy. Beeblebrox (talk) 07:26, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

• I think you miss the point, your reference doesn't provide any basis for beliveing that is what the writer for the simpsons was contemplating when he wrote that line, no more than my reference for the Hartlepool monkey shows that is what he was contemplating either. In both cases looking at how we individualy interpret it and therefore asserting that this is the basis of it is original reasearch. As to the comment about monkeys being "funny", I guess we'll have to agree to differ. A statement which consists of "cheese eating", something the French are known for, "surrender" against something the French are known for and in your view the arbitary adding of Monkey because they are "funny" just escapes me. (I took a look through the Monkey article and guess what, no mention of the word Funny, Humour (Humor) or entertainment are made). Most people who encounter the story are intrigued by it and find it funny, the prospect of the writer having heard the story (which is very common) and reacting likewise seems totally plausible to me. But again it comes back around to that, it's plausible to me as is the surrender link, but is is documented in reliable sources that is the basis of the comment from the writer (for either part), No. --81.104.39.44 (talk) 20:14, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

• My point is that I believe it has been demonstrated that there are reliable sources demonstrating an attitude in America (where the Simpsons is written and the market it is primarily for) that the French are prone to surrender. I think that it is a logical connection with this phrase. You have provided a source indicating that a couple of English townspeople may or may not have mistaken a monkey for a Frenchman a few hundred years ago. I don't see a logical connection there. Monkeys have in fact been a staple of comedy films and television for some time, Bedtime for Bonzo, Every Which Way But Loose, Dunston Checks In, and the episode of the Simpsons where Homer gets a "helper monkey" being just what I could come up with off the top of my head. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:37, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Good God, is the use of "monkey" as a derogatory ethnic slur either so unquestioned or so unknown? And that list doesn't even mention the evolutionary overtones. - Tenebris —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.112.29.180 (talk) 08:38, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

link to vercingetorix

is that here as an example of frenchmen that have surrendered? 122.57.211.91 (talk) 03:31, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

removed, irrelevant with the subject of this article--Lilyu (talk) 09:07, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

French-dubbed version of the Simpson episode

In the episode I know (European version), Willie teachs English and says "Hello, mangeurs de rosbif à la gelée de groseille" ("Hello, redcurrant jelly roastbeef eaters"), although he still wears a striped jumper and a beret and a French flag hangs in the background. Éclusette (talk) 12:32, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I haven't seen this one in French, but according to the scripts on SimpsonsPark.com, which are transcribed from the episodes (and are exact transcriptions according to the ones I've watched and read at the same time), Willy says "rendez-vous, singes mangeurs de fromage". Adam Bishop (talk) 08:21, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

This sounds a bit dubious to me. The text currently claims:

When "'Round Springfield" was dubbed in French, the line became "Rendez-vous, singes mangeurs de fromage" ("Surrender, you cheese-eating monkeys"). http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/article2234263.ece]

The cited reference is to a pay-walled Times article, which can't be checked, but "Rendez-vous" doesn't translate as "Surrender" as the latter would actually be "Abandonner." Nick Cooper (talk) 12:51, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

use of "opprobrious" to describe the phrase

Describing the phrase "cheese eating surrender monkey" as being an opprobrious comment (i.e. a disgraceful, outrageously shameful comment) is anything but: 1) point of view neutral; or 2) accepted by all as a fact (there are many who would agree with the tone of the comment). As such I am changing the phrase "and other opprobrious comments" to "and other similar comments" to convey the gist of the sentence - that is that this phrase and others like it have been used by American Media outlets - without using non-pov neutral langauge or polemic language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.49.150.115 (talk) 07:25, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

David Letterman?

I would have bet anything that David Letterman coined this expression in the '80s, but I can't find a source. But I'm pretty sure it predates 1995. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.229.1.107 (talk) 23:40, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

re: use of "opprobrious" to describe the phrase

If in fact "there are many who would agree with the tone of the comment", then it really might be nice if a few people acquainted themselves with some history. It's a revolting slur, as the 360,000 killed and wounded, and 1,9 taken prisoner in the Battle of France would tell you. As indeed would the nearly 1,7 million French soldiers who died in just the first world war, more than have died in every US conflict since the founding of the country. So yes, opprobrious would be pretty accurate. If you read actual history. 78.227.32.158 (talk) 15:56, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Dying in combat or "being taken prisoner" (AKA *surrendering*) is certainly no indication of bravery, at best it's a measure of incompetence, but more likely it's a measure of cowardice. The contrast to the US deaths is quite striking and only goes to prove the superiority of the US military, and of course the original point of the entire entry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.172.115 (talk) 00:56, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Was that your entry for jerk post of the year? Congratulations. You won. --Tagishsimon (talk) 08:55, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Its a shame we let foreigners in here... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.193.172 (talk) 22:42, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I think the "superiority of US army" during WW2 is easily proved with the unconditional surrender of american Phillipines island inspite of superior numbers, 2/3 prisoners of war in 1942

Jerk post or no jerk post, there's a grain of truth in his words. I personally find the French POW/KIA ratio very strange. Having more than six times as much "taken prisoner" than killed suggests that they were "taken" without even firing a single shot. And by the way, I would recommend the froggie-lovers of whatever nation to abandon the "Battle of France" title which has quite rightly been described as pretentious, and use something neutral, like "Invasion of France". By desperately trying to convince people that there was much of a battle they are only enticing their opponents to use just as heavily but oppositely charged titles ("Speedy Surrender of 1940" sounds good to me). The real Battle of France, if there ever was one, happened in 1944 and was fought by US, British and Canadian troops (and, obviously, Germans on the opposite side), so I consider describing the event of 1940 as a "battle" an insult to those. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.149.126.32 (talk) 07:07, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes the campaign of France is described in wikipedia and most sources as the "battle of france" since there were actual battles and fights (hannut, gembloux, dunkirk) but I see what you are referring to. For example the battle of castlebar was described as the "races of castlebar" because of the speed at which the British troops ran away and fled the battlefield.77.192.40.138 (talk) 20:23, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I know that the French campaign enjoys the title "Battle of France" on wikipedia and yes, I'm aware that there were actual battles during it, but the former is only due to France-related articles being dominated by the froggie-lovers who have just annoyed everyone else into submission and it's futile to wage an editorial war on those. As to the latter, well it still does not grant the title because the territory contested by battle was rather small compared to the whole country. Consider that the Polish campaign was titled "Invasion of Poland" last time I checked, even though the Battles with German and Soviet troops happened very nearly across the whole country and the campaign culminated with the surrender of Warsaw after a brutal fighting. Rather different from having declared your capital an open city, as the French did, and yet, the poor unfortunate Poles aren't granted the right to have the battle for their country on wiki. I believe it's because they don't have their equivalent of froggie-lovers in the English-speaking world. Do you propose another explanation?81.30.84.70 (talk) 15:39, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

"Also the surrendering reputation is somewhat limited to the Anglo-American culture, making the translation of the word irrelevant to other languages."

Whoever added this would do well by providing a source. I'm from Belarus which last time I checked wasn't a part of "Anglo-American culture" and let's just say I've never heared anyone using the pretentious "Battle of France" title here, while I have heared people describing the Frech Campaign of WW2 and the subsequent widespread collaboration as a shameful surrender of one's homeland...109.126.164.184 (talk) 11:09, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Agreed on the above point, the French *did* in fact surrender with remarkable speed and then many collaborated with the Germans, including the deportation of Jews for the Holocaust. And then turned on the collaborators as soon as it appeared safe to do so. The French resistance was quite heroic but in tiny numbers. It's hardly a unique concept that the French are cowardly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.193.172 (talk) 01:38, 23 August 2011 (UTC) The french surrendered as all european countries who were invaded and coul?nt resist to the German Blitzkieg. The BEF ran away and the "miracle of Dunkirk" was only possible thanks to the rear guard fight of the french troops (that's make the Brits "Runaway monckeys". Now for those who think that France is a nation of cowards: go away attack it...! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.251.121.93 (talk) 06:44, 21 February 2012 (UTC) Do you think anyone but your fellow froggie-lovers is going to take seriously your BS about the French who couldn't save their own country, but could and did save BEF? Seriously, why can't the froggie-lovers be a bit more creative, like invent some novelty areguments, instead of just repeating each other and trying to shift the blame on someone else (usually Germans or Britons). Whatever BEF has done is completely irrelavant when we're talking about the French, try to get it through your skull. Even a Frenchman shouldn't place the blame for the fall of France on BEF, unless it's normal for a Frenchman to be comletely inept at basic arithmetics (try to calculate what percentage of troops taking part in the French campaing were British). A non-Frenchman would also say that defending a country is the job of its population, but that's something the French (and, by extension, froggie-lovers) apparently have big trouble understanding. That's why you have to jugde the British by their defence of Britain and the French by their defence of France, instead of jugding both by their defence of France, as the froggie-lovers try to do.46.165.197.29 (talk) 09:12, 2 March 2012 (UTC) Your "justification" won't erase the fact that British retreated faster than the French up to their Island which basically prevented any Blitzkkrieg tactic by Germany. The term being political mostly, It would have been coined by the USA the same way about glorious UK history of being invaded by foreign armies and losing european/american territories, if UK had used the right of veto against USA for Iraqi invasion. Which tells us a lot about political surrender to the most powerful. Allying with the big guy to beat the small resistant is always easier indeed. As for the guy from Belarus, maybe he has to ask himself if spitting on another country's surrender is not a good way to forget that his own country is not even independant.77.192.40.138 (talk) 20:15, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Get real. Nobody's going to be interested in the readings of the British speedometers by comparison to the French ones when those two were retreating from the Germans. Such technicalities only concern froggie-lovers choked on their own inferiority complex. Said another way, if the French think that the British only exist to defend France when the Germans come it's a solely French problem and the British are wise not to make it theirs. Speculations aside, right now we can only observe that the British fared much better than the French during WWII, anyone who can't live with it can always kill himself. The British involvement certainly didn't end with the fall of France and the French one certainly did. So, it's funny how the froggie-lovers are so self-centered, they present the defeat of BEF as a proof of the British being no better or worse than the French, even though it's only a minor part of the British contribution to the war. There are far more embarrassing defeats for the British than in France (take Singapore, for instance), but I suspect that even if there was, like, one single Briton taking part in the defense of France, the froggie-lovers would still be calculating the speed with which the man retreated from the Germans and coming to the inevitable conclusion that it was higher than the speed of the retreating French troops. And no, no matter how much you cherish this belief, the British would not be called by the title of this article if they opposed the US. As you should know, the Germans weren't even though they too opposed the invasion of Iraq, so there must be something that makes the French different from most other nations. Obviously it's not the military defeats, as every country has plenty of those. Maybe it's the French way of dealing with them (or anything else they don't like about their history) by making tons of excuses and talking about myriads of unrelated thing in the vain hope that the opponent will forget what the argument was about. Oh, and I would very much like to hear your criteria of a country's independence. Maybe you should also check France against those. If Belarus failed to meet them, who knows if France will?81.30.84.70 (talk) 16:18, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

I understand indeed that you are not interested in culture and history, anglosaxon fanboys like the guy above you prefer to believe racist stereotypes and national propaganda indeed. However don't take your case for a generality. As to the supposed "inferiority complex", i think you need to remind who is calling the other "names". French don't spit on British, actually most French are anglophiles (very far from being deserved such admiration IMO) you just need to come to France to understand that very quicly. This is far from being the case for British people who have more a french-hating stance like you, your ignorant mate above, and most if not all english media. But I somehow can understand that they will never forgive the French for taking all their continental territories during middleages and forcing them to be Islanders after Hundred years war. That's for the inferiority complex. Get over it at once77.197.174.181 (talk) 20:41, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea what culture's got to do with that "CESM" term, but I'm very much interested in history, the world history, I mean, while you appear to be only interested in history of France. Nothing wrong with it, but you've got to realize that it prevents you from seeing the bigger picture. I can't say much about the real-life interaction between the French and the British, since I'm neither and don't live in any of those countries. I saw both cases of bashing one by another on the Internet, but not often. I personally have nothing against French people as such, but I do have something against the froggie-lovers of any nation, the kind of people who compile lists like this one in order to prove (mostly to themselves) that, and I quote, for the past thousand years the French have the most glorious military history in Europe and possibly in the whole world. I'd like to clarify that by using the term "froggie-lovers" I don't mean to call the French "froggies", it's just that the term seems most appropriate for the people who behave like I described. BTW, I also have something against froggie-haters who can't find a cause better than French-bashing to dedicate their lives to. Will gladly visit France if you pay my fares, if you can promise that I don't meet too many jerks I read about a couple of times, I mean those who refuse to speak English with a foreigner even though they can. I don't speak French, as you can imagine.87.236.194.70 (talk) 11:52, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

"I'm very much interested in history" I think the comments you can read above are enough to prove people here are not interested in history at all. Well it's not really strange when we consider on which page we are talking, a racist term purely invented for French bashing. "while you appear to be only interested in history of France" I am always interested in history versus ignorant stereotypes. In that matter I can talk about Spain, Poland, Italy, Canada, Germany, England, Ireland, Scotland, USA, North africa. It's not a "frog loving" thing to say comments about French military history since the last 1000 years, according to BBC It is one of the most providing country in the world in terms of war and battles. If you have the motivation studying history of France you'll see that it participated to an uncountable number of battles and wars, more than any other country in terms of numbers. I don't know why this fact pisses you off so much but that's the way it is. If people can't live with that fact, well they can still "kill themselves" to take the guy's words. As for the battle of France, if you are really interested in history you would know that the battle of hannut http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hannut was up to that day the biggest tank battle ever, a French tactical victory in spite of numbers. That's for the Belarus calling the term "battle of France" as "pretentious". It is true that the hundred of thousand of British forces had to retreat just like the French because the ardennes risky contournment by Hitler permitted Germany to align twice numbers + flanking positions against allies. There is nothing about courage lacking in those facts, but plain science. Nobody defeated German tactics aside Staline at the cost of 25 million lives (half french population) and half his country invaded. Even American success was not comparable because they faced a german army that was mostly busy on the eastern front and facing internal resistance and multifrontal attack (afrika). So I'm still wondering why the racism is only directed towards France and not all the european countries that had been invaded very fast like Czech republic, Poland, Belgium, Nederlands, British fast retreat and failure at Market garden, American unconditionnal surrender of the phillipines, Russia twice bigger country mostly invaded in 1942 etc etc. Well I know why, because it's 100% political and has nothing to do with history but with the fact that Chirac vetoed American invasion of Iraq. The haters from any country in the world can now follow the trend and bash the French without much risk even though their own country has more to blame. Yes the Belarus guy talks about "shameful surrender of one's homeland" but I don't understand then why he's happy about his country being a puppy state for Putine and not even fighting back like the French resistance and exterior forces did after capitulation and until the end of the war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bir_Hakeim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_of_Paris If people were not so ignorant and stopped believing in stereotypes "made in USA" that in my experience most anglosaxon people believe, but also now other peoples because of the internets, then those people you describe as wanting to "prove something to themselves" would not be so insistant in reminding everyone the history, the real one, to the racist people all over the world.77.197.174.228 (talk) 14:47, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

As someone who was born in Poland, I find this kind of speculation about the French being "surrender monkeys," when it comes from Americans, kind of suspect. America is defended by two natural forces called the Atlantic Ocean and the Pacific Ocean. It amuses me to think how fast the British would have crushed the young American revolution had America been located in, say, Ireland. The French (liked the Poles) have the misfortune of sharing a border with the mad Teutonic nation (that's Germany, kids). It's hard to share that border. It puts you in close proximity with the war machine. If the U.S.A. was located where France is, it would've capitulated very quickly to the Germans in 1938. The Americans wouldn't have had time to dither around when decided whether to join WWII. The German American Bund (remember those homegrown Nazis?) would've stalled America's joining the war and maybe made a nice third column. You guys are silly. 76.14.66.186 (talk) 17:03, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Source

Some dull old Daily Mal story

Big so what. Phrase is used by idiot bloggers and picked up by the Daily Hate. A nation yawns. It is a frequently enough used phrase, and few if any instances of its use need to be added to the article. It's genesis and early adoption are of importance. Each new use, not so much. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:15, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Cheese-eating Sideways Monkeys!

Anybody wanna add that? 76.94.193.171 (talk) 23:00, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

No. Very few riffs on this phrase deserve a mention in the article. Certainly not this one. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:11, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Is this really worthy of an encyclopedia article?

In 2001-2007, a bunch of right-wing American commenters use a phrase to express their disgust with the French for not joining in the Iraq War. They get a laugh out of it. They pass it around. The war proves to be a fiasco. They stop using the phrase. Is this really worthy of an encyclopedia article? If so, should the article mention that the phrase fell out of fashion after it became clear that the French were right for not marching into the quagmire? Chisme (talk) 03:27, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Maybe not, but there certainly were a lot of reliable sources showing its usage. Most of which you seem to have deleted for some reason, most baffling the two Oxford Quote dictionaries, which you've then proceeded to claim needs a citation in the lead. Gran² 08:04, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

It's worthy of a short article maybe, which is why I made the cuts. Chisme (talk) 16:36, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

...I don't really see your point. Either it doesn't justify an article or it does. You seem to first be implying that it didn't as it wasn't notable, yet you now seem to be claiming it does deserve its own article, but only with a bunch of stuff showing its notability removed (again, including the two quote dictionaries which you then proceeded to tag in the lead as unsourced). I agree there was some fluff, but I think you removed a lot of good stuff too. Gran² 15:04, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

...Here's my point: Complex subjects require long, detailed articles; simple subjects don't. This is a simple subject. As a matter of fact, it's a Simpsons cartoon fan page, not really a subject worthy of an encyclopedia. But hey, what do I know? Even D'oh! has an article in this encyclopedia, and a long one at that. I'd prefer it if this kind of thing were reserved for Simpsons fan forums. Chisme (talk) 21:30, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Completely wrong attribution

The quote did not originate from the Simpsons, but from Monty Python and the Holy Grail 1975... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.1.19.57 (talk) 07:06, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Where is your source for this? I've just checked, and none of the words "cheese", "eating", "surrender", "monkey" appear at any point in the script.[2][3] Chaheel Riens (talk) 11:23, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

The French flag is also unflatteringly known as the French Retreat-colour

not looking good Frenchies (: — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.69.58.27 (talk) 06:38, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Why doesn't this article neither link nor mention the historic anti-French Hartlepool monkey hanging?

Stop being so soft on the French imperialistic ego Monkey_hanger