Talk:Battle of Waterloo

This article is selected for Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries/June 18

Pseudo-headings

Our manual of style is clear about headings:

• "Do not make pseudo-headings using bold or semicolon markup." - Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility#Headings

My correction of this error has been reverted by PBS with nothing more than his own opinion that they are "not helpful". The markup he has restored produces this sort of html:

<dl>
 <dt>Articles</dt>
</dl>

That's a definition list with a term to be defined without any definition (the <dd>...</dd> is missing). That sort of defective html causes annoyance for screen readers who are led to expect a definition, but none is given. It's time editors stopped thinking only of how they perceive articles and started considering that others may not be using the same user agent as them.

A definition list is not a heading and breaches the consensus we have in our accessibility guidelines, where this precise markup is shown as an example of misuse.

As my corrections comply with policy, I shall restore my edits and I await any valid reason here why they should not stand. --RexxS (talk) 23:25, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

"As my corrections comply with policy" An interesting turn of phrase as a parting shot, is it a deliberate or unintentional rhetorical construction? You write "my corrections" which implies that anyone who disagrees with you is is being delinquent. Why not write "my changes"? "comply with policy" which policy, are you sure you do not mean guideline?

See WP:BRD you should not revert a revert to an edit you make until after it has been shown that there is a census for such a change (and just because the MOS says something does not mean that there is such a consensus). If you object to the html generated by a semi colon then the obvious thing to do is replace it with two sets single quotes, not to remove the emphasis completely. I think your logic is flawed because your edit implies that while you support "Do not make pseudo-headings using bold or semicolon markup." you think it OK to make pseudo-headings using something other than bold or semicolon markup. As I see it they bold lines are not pseudo-headings. -- PBS (talk) 06:24, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

WP:CON was the policy that I was referring to. The consensus on not using definition lists to make headings is documented at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility#Headings and my edits complied with that. Are you contending that they don't comply with that section of the MoS? You are, of course, completely wrong to think that there is no consensus for the Manual of Style. I must also say you have got a nerve nit-picking on the differences between guidelines and policy when you're relying on an essay to support your contention. When I've clearly quoted the Manual of Style supporting my edit - as I also did in my original edit that you reverted without bothering to read - I am under no obligation to seek your approval to restore those edits, as the consensus is already established. If you want to change that, see how far you get with trying to alter the MoS.

Let me be clear: I object to the html generated by the semicolon when it is misused to make a heading. The obvious markup to replace that is a level 3 heading in this case - because the text affected is clearly a heading. So no, two sets of single quotes (i.e. <i>...</i> which semantically indicates emphasis is not correct either - it's a heading. They are not "bold lines" - that means nothing to a screen reader - but headings. You make headings (not pseudo-headings) when you mark text up as headings. Would you prefer me to do that? --RexxS (talk) 23:51, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

The words delineating the start of a section need to stand out from the rest of the text, how this is done is of no consequence to the reader. Urselius (talk) 07:26, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Of course it has consequences for a reader. Anyone using a screen reader won't see the page the way that you do; they hear how the page is marked up, so if you ignorantly choose to use nonsense (like a definition list in place of a heading), the visually impaired visitor hears nonsense. What superficially looks the same to you, isn't the same to everybody. --RexxS (talk) 10:43, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

A rather specialised function for someone who is not a reader but a listener using interpretative technology. As I said the reader just wants a visual clue about what constitutes a section header. Urselius (talk) 11:57, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

@RexxS: They are not "bold lines" - that means nothing to a screen reader - but headings. Your change left the words in place with no bold. My change places those words in bold. If it means nothing to a screen reader then the problem has gone away. If it means something to the screen reader then the problem has gone away. -- PBS (talk) 15:44, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

@Urselius: There's nothing specialised about using alternative user agents and that's certainly no excuse for making the experience of using Wikipedia any worse than it has to be for the visually impaired. The visual cue for "what constitutes a section header" is - as you may have guessed - marking it as a section header (=== ... === in wikitext).

@PBS: Many screen reader users will not have the option to speak formatting enabled, so for them marking text as bold indeed has no effect. Using bold in place of the proper level 3 heading isn't a perfect solution, but it's certainly better than the definition list. Consequently, I haven't challenged your edit making the heading text bold, as I agree it's an improvement on the semicolon markup. I'm assuming you don't use the proper heading markup because you don't want those headings to appear in the table of contents. --RexxS (talk) 17:26, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

They are not section headings any more than a table caption is a section header, indeed it is probably best to think of this usage as a close cousin of a table caption as it fulfils the same role. -- PBS (talk) 19:21, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Rubbish. Of course they are section headings - you're just displaying a profound lack of knowledge about how web pages are constructed. A table caption is a different element and is treated diferently - a browser doesn't even render it bold by default; additionally, a table caption in html may be placed above, below or beside a table because it is structurally a part of the table (see http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#h-11.2.2), whereas a heading is defined as "A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces." (see http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5). Are you really attempting to tell us that the text "Articles", "Books", etc, in the Further reading section is not briefly describing the topic of the section it introduces? They are clearly headings and it's time for you to stop digging that hole. --RexxS (talk) 23:14, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

I think your tone is aggressive, you are making assertions of what is a section (something on which we disagree) so I see little point in continuing this discussion as I think you and I are looking at this from different perspectives. -- PBS (talk) 09:12, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

And I was wondering if you were simply trolling to get a response from me. To the issue: I have explained clearly to you what our guidelines on accessibility state and what the definition of a heading is - both with links to the sources. That you choose to ignore both is your loss, not mine, but I'd be more than happy to disengage with you. Feel free to have the last word. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 17:17, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

RexxS is utterly correct; the corrections he made bring the article into line with our own guidelines and policies; industry-standard (ISO) web accessibility guidelines. It should not be necessary to expand this amount of verbiage in order to make our content as widely accessible as possible. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:28, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

In what way has your change made anything any more accessible to anyone? -- PBS (talk) 20:34, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, anyone using a screen reader like JAWS can bring up a list of all the headings and step through them until they find the one they want and then jump to that section. Optionally they can navigate with a single keypress (H) to the next header or previous header (shift-H) at any point in the text. Marking up headings as headings allows those sub-sections in the Further reading section to be found quickly by the person using the screen reader. There's a description of some of the ways JAWS uses headings at JAWSKeystrokes. Also of relevance are the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines that explain organizing a page using headings ("Success Criterion 1.3.1 requires that the headings be marked such that they can be programmatically identified ... These allow user agents to automatically identify section headings.") and using h1-h6 to identify headings ("Heading markup will allow assistive technologies to present the heading status of text to a user. A screen reader can recognize the code and announce the text as a heading with its level, beep or provide some other auditory indicator. Screen readers are also able to navigate heading markup which can be an effective way for screen reader users to more quickly find the content of interest. Assistive technologies that alter the authored visual display will also be able to provide an appropriate alternate visual display for headings that can be identified by heading markup.} So I'd say it stands a chance of increasing accessibility for quite a few people. --RexxS (talk) 21:17, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I think you are confused by the time line, I placed my comment here at 20:34 and it referred to this edit at 20:31. -- PBS (talk) 12:43, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm absolutely sure I'm not the one who is confused. You placed your comment above at 20:34. I looked at the article and saw the edit Andy made at 20:33, immediately before your comment. My post above addresses the question of how marking up headers improves accessibility - which is what his 20:33 edit did. Short of employing a mind-reader, how was anyone supposed to guess that you were referring to an earlier edit when you don't bother to give any diffs? --RexxS (talk) 18:51, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

The time stamps and "Your change" not "your changes" should have been a clue. When I wrote that, I had no idea that further changes had and would be made so there was no obvious reason to include a diff. -- PBS (talk) 14:51, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

See ANI:Failure to follow accessibility guidelines there is no reason why bold lines can not be used. Sighted and those who use screen readers are not aided by having a bloated TOC indeed there is a good case to make that while a sighted person can see that the TOC has no more useful information, the person using a screen reader is forced to listen to many entries that are not relevant in the case that the next potential section is of more relevance. So I am reverting out the introduction of unnecessary section entries.-- PBS (talk) 17:21, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

New articles

The Waterloo Campaign was a redirect. I have written a lead and copied a number of sections from the article Hundred Days to create the beginning of an article.

I have done this now because I have just completed a brand new article called Waterloo Campaign: Start of hostilities (15 June) it is based on text exacted from PD source:

• Siborne, William (1848), The Waterloo Campaign, 1815 (4th ed.), Westminster: A. Constable

It has taken me much longer than I expected because of the need to update locations and the need to write article stubs both for the missing locations and for major actors. Most of the article is a blow by blow account of the campaign, but the sections "Wellington's earliest news and orders" and "Remarks on Napoleon's operations", may well need input from other sources, to present a balanced historical prospective.

It is my intention to add some other equally detailed articles to fill in the gaps between the battle articles, because at the moment the coverage of the campaign is very patchy.

-- PBS (talk)

Napoleon's headquarters

There seems to be some inconsistencies in this article and in the sources that support it.

• "Napoleon last H.Q. (Now the Musée du Caillou)"
• "Napoleon's former headquarters at La Belle Alliance."

It seems to me that the Musée du Caillou has a strong commercial interest in promoting itself as Napoleon's headquarters. But while he slept there during the night before the battle was it any more his headquarters during the battle than Wellington's lodgings in Waterloo where his headquarters during the battle?

This non-reliable source (possibly with a financial interest) states "before travelling to the French side to visit Napoleon's headquarters at Le Caillou and his observation point at La Belle Alliance."

Is La Belle Alliance only the French equivalent of the "elm tree" or was it his headquarters for the battle? I suppose the crux of the matter is after he arrived at La Belle Alliance did he ever return to Le Caillou? -- PBS (talk) 08:14, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

"Caillou" C'est Dans Cette Maison Que Napoleon Passa La Nuit du 17 au 18 Juin 1815

The French Wikipedia has an article on this place "fr:Ferme du Caillou" which includes an image (to the right) the plaque translates from "Caillou" C'est Dans Cette Maison Que Napoleon Passa La Nuit du 17 au 18 Juin 1815 to "'Caillou' is the house that Napoleon spent the night of 17 to 18 June 1815". So while this is a primary source, unless some reliable non commercial secondary sources are produced indicating that after he left the house he continued to use it as his headquarters, then the text of the article should be changed to indicate it was where he spent the night.

• A Google Book search on [Caillou Napoleon's headquarters] returns about 100 book most of which support the contention that it was his overnight headquarters and where he breakfasted/received Grouchy's first report.
• A Google Book search on ["Belle Alliance" Napoleon's headquarters] returns about 250 books, most of which support the idea that this was his headquarters during the battle.

-- PBS (talk) 17:16, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

The high ground at La Belle Alliance served to give a commanding field of view across the battlefield - from Hougoumont to the Allied center to the Paris woods on the eastern flank. I believe Napoleon had his battlemaps set up near LBA in the morning. He was there when he directed the counter-counter attack against the Union Brigade's charge into his Grand Battery. He was there in the evening to direct the last half of his cavalry reserves to support Ney's use of the first half. And of course he was there when he was directing the Imperial Guard infantry to move up for their final ever attack. The only times he was not at LBA apparently was when he was overseeing Lobau's Corps' deployment on his eastern flank, and in the afternoon when Ney took it upon himself to order the first cavalty charges upon Mont St.Jean; and finally when Napoleon directed the last victorious French attack on Plancenoit to throw out the Prussians - at this critical time I'm not sure if Napoleon was at LBA from where he would see the utter shambles Wellington's center was in after the fall of La Haye Sainte.--Joey123xz (talk) 02:08, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Edits

Tttom1 (talk) 03:27, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

• 16:37, 21 November 2014‎ Tttom (→‎References: trying to fix ref)
• 16:59, 21 November 2014‎ PBS (Undid revision 634849376 by Tttom (talk) It is not clear what references this is supposed fix as no short cites link to it. Also the book is already in "Further reading")
• 17:09, 21 November 2014‎ Tttom (→‎Charge of the British heavy cavalry: added ref)
• 17:12, 21 November 2014‎ Tttom (Undid revision 634851735 by PBS (talk) It linked to something but got knocked out when I added another Hofschroer book, I could only get it in out of place as this)

diff for these edits.

@Tttom Why have you added a short citation "Hofschröer 1999, p. 86." to the end of the paragraph "As Ponsonby tried to rally..."?

You inserted a book into the References. It was not in the references list on 2 November (the last edit before you made you first). I removed it because it is not linked to a short citation, you have reinstated it but I do not understand you edit comment "It linked to something but got knocked out when I added another Hofschroer book, I could only get it in out of place as this" what does it mean? -- PBS (talk) 17:44, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Not exactly sure what happened. I tried to add Hofschroer 'German Victory' to the Reference list, I thought, but kept getting problems with 'Smallest Victory' seeemed like one or the other wouldn't show up when all 3 were in ref list. Maybe I just was doing it in 'Books' section by mistake. But I only added the one ref to article for 1999 book I see there are others but I'm not sure they weren't for 'Smallest Victory'. Looking back in the hist I see it was always German Vict. so maybe I was just editing the wrong section and ended up fixing a ref that never was. lolol. I'm still confused about it.Tttom1 (talk) 18:26, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I am still confused by you answer, if the book you inserted is not need then please self revert the edit that last inserted it. Did you intend to add the "Hofschröer 1999, p=86" as an inline citation and should it link to The Waterloo Campaign: The German Victory (volume 2)? -- PBS (talk) 18:39, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes that was reef intended, then perhaps I scrolled down past ref to further reading and that's where the confusion came in. I'll revert.Tttom1 (talk) 02:25, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Are Siborne Letters a Primary source?

See in the archive Archive 11 § Letters

This paragraph relies on what appears to be primary sources, see: Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources - Siborne's, (a participant in the battle) letters - from 2 books that are collections of his letters and uses them to put forth Original Research OR to contradict appropriate secondary sources - as it clearly states in the opening sentence: "Many popular histories suggest". Can we have some additional discussion from other editors working on this article as to how to improve this section and get it to meet WP policy?

"Many popular histories suggest that the British heavy cavalry were destroyed as a viable force following their first, epic charge. Examination of eyewitness accounts reveal, however, that far from being ineffective, they continued to provide valuable services. They counter-charged French cavalry numerous times (both brigades),[76] halted a combined cavalry and infantry attack (Household Brigade only),[77][78][79] were used to bolster the morale of those units in their vicinity at times of crisis, and filled gaps in the Anglo-allied line caused by high casualties in infantry formations (both brigades).[80][81] This service was rendered at a very high cost, as close combat with French cavalry, carbine fire, infantry musketry and—more deadly than all of these—artillery fire steadily eroded the number of effectives in the two brigades.[p] At the end of the fighting the two brigades, by this time combined, could muster one squadron.[82]"

Not just 'Popular' histories but historians state their views on what happens subsequently to the British HC, reliable sources should be added for NPOV here. Other suggestions?Tttom1 (talk) 13:58, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

This is a little pointless as the section now has 3 references from undoubted secondary sources, in addition to the Siborne letters. The Sibourne letters were requested by Capt. Siborne from eyewitnesses to the battle some decades after the event (in the 1830s). They were intended to be used in constructing a diorama of the battle. Very many years later, Siborne's son, General Siborne, edited the letters and had them published. As a source of information they are second to none and any description of the battle would be the poorer for not using them. I do not think that a published and edited collection of letters, available for over a century, is considered as a primary source in academia - it is not as though anyone has personally inspected collections of manuscripts. Siborne senior also wrote a book, not a collection of edited letters a history, and this is what is shown as Siborne 1990 (when a reprint appeared). Incidentally, Hamilton-Williams' book has has been severely criticised for inaccuracies and Barbero is not without errors. tttom Don't fret, I can load this section with other references, just wait [User:Urselius|Urselius]] (talk) 15:27, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Hardly pointless unless you want to retain the OR. They are primary sources as are Paget's letters also, the editor who did this section initially (and if its you - please don't take offense - I'm trying to keep it in the article) used the statements from participants' letters (primary sources - British officers btw hardly impartial) to refute a number of secondary sources and statements by reliable historians, of which we have added 3 so far - there are probably more. Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources: "Primary sources are often difficult to use appropriately. While they can be both reliable and useful in certain situations, they must be used with caution in order to avoid original research. While specific facts may be taken from primary sources, secondary sources that present the same material are preferred. Large blocks of material based purely on primary sources should be avoided. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors." and : Wikipedia:No original research "Primary sources are original materials that are close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved. They offer an insider's view of an event, a period of history, a work of art, a political decision, and so on. Primary sources may or may not be independent or third-party sources. An account of a traffic accident written by a witness is a primary source of information about the accident; similarly, a scientific paper documenting a new experiment conducted by the author is a primary source on the outcome of that experiment. Historical documents such as diaries are primary sources.[ Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, reliable primary sources may be used in Wikipedia; but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation." It doesn't make a difference that Barbero made an error somewhere except that you may be implying that based on the OR in this paragraph Barbero is wrong about the destruction of the Union Bgde - which is really not relevant. I look forward to your load of secondary sources, like Chandler, Barbero, Hofschorer supporting Siborne.Tttom1 (talk) 17:00, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Biographies - like Anglesey's about his ancestor the 1st Marquess (Uxbridge) - are secondary sources, just like any other. The book is primarily a biography with letters embedded in it, not a collection of letters. Both of the citations of this work that I have used refer to authorial comment, not to the content of letters. Biographers, like historians, use primary sources, so all legitimate material is ultimately dependant on primary sources. We cannot have a paper-chase scenario to make all primary source material embedded in secondary works inadmissible - even Hamilton-Williams makes use of quotations. I have over a hundred Napoleonic War books, so the number of citations may be extensive. Urselius (talk) 19:14, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

All the essential assertions in the disputed passage are now supported by multiple references to works other than Siborne's Letters from Waterloo. The level of citation is now greatly in excess of Wikipedia requirements or aspirations. If you care to, you may remove all references to Siborne's Letters (but not Siborne's History) as all assertions are adequately referenced independently of them. Urselius (talk) 21:23, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Nicely done, good work. Now we can keep Siborne because: Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. and now the article has them.Tttom1 (talk) 05:24, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Text–source integrity and other things

@Tttom , since my last edit you have made a number of edit which are causing me concern of Text–source integrity and adding text without citations into a fully cited article.

The first one concerns the lack of citations. There was a paragraph which started "In the mean time, d'Erlon's men began to ascend the slope." It has been replaced with 2 paragraphs the first as which "D'Erlon's men ascended..." which contains a lot of information and not one citation. All the facts in the paragraph needs citations.

Will get to that eventually.Tttom1 (talk) 03:32, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

The problem of Text–source integrity occurs several times. This occurs because a sentence is added to a paragraph and given a citation. But because the paragraph is cited with one citation at the end, the sentences preceding the inserted sentence no longer carry the correct citation -- a breach of Text–source integrity. The first example of this is "More than 20 years of warfare ..." the citation at the end of the paragraph needs duplicating and put at the end of the sentence that ends "...unlike the infantry had scant experience of warfare."

Moved Grant statement to end of Para to eliminated possible, but unlikely, confusion.Tttom1 (talk) 03:32, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

There is a rewrite of

• "The Inniskillings routed the other brigade of Quoit's division, and the Greys destroyed most of Nogue's brigade, capturing the eagle of the 45th Ligne."

to

• "The Inniskillings routed the other brigade of Quoit's division, and the Scots Greys came upon the lead French regiment, 45th Ligne, as it was still reforming after having crossed the sunken road and broken through the hedge row in pursuit of the British infantry. The Greys captured the eagle of the 45th Ligne"

This was done without a change in citation. Is this information contained in the original citation (Barbero 2005, pp. 198–204)?

I'm using the paperback ed, but I believe it is as its in paperback p154-155.Tttom1 (talk) 03:32, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

"and destroyed most of Grenier's brigade" was added to the text without a citation, so a citation is needed, because at the moment looks as if this is supported by the next citation (Barbero 2006 p. 155).

changed to 'overwhelmed Grenier's Brigade and added ref.Tttom1 (talk) 03:32, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

The movement of the sentence "A counter-charge, by British light dragoons under Major-General Vandeleur..." from its original position effects the Text–source integrity of the paragraph from which it was removed. As it now looks as if 2The Union Brigade lost heavily in both officers ..." is not in part supported by (Barbero 2005 pp. 219–223) and it is not clear if the sentences that were moved was or was not impart supported by (Siborne 1990 pp. 329,349) Is this correct?

"French tirailleurs occupied the dominant..." There is no citation for this paragraph.

Now cited: "Barbero 2006 239"Tttom1 (talk) 03:32, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

"During this time many of Wellington..." There is a citation for the stuck watch quote but it is not clear if that is meant to cover the first sentence of the paragraph.

additional cite added.Tttom1 (talk) 03:32, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I do not want to delete anything but lets assume for the moment that I have deleted the additional text and reverted moves of all the text mentioned, so that the burden falls on you to add adequate citations for the changes. -- PBS (talk) 19:56, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Hope this suffices for now to allow for continuing to improve this article, because it needs work e.g. this earlier cite seems wrong: name="WellingtonCavalry">Barbero 2005, pp. 85–187. as it covers over 100 pages.Tttom1 (talk) 03:32, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

While we're on this subject I see some long standing paragraphs with no citations at all: "Napoleon, with the reserves..."; "Fighting continued around..."; "Wellington's infantry responded..."; "Maitland's 1st Foot Guards,...". Should these be tagged, or deleted? Other Paragraphs have end cites or cites within that don't seem to cover the entire para's info: "The French army of around 69,000..."Tttom1 (talk) 05:00, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

If you are using a different edition of Barbero you ought to add it to the references section and cite the pages from that edition. If you edition and the edition cited are the same year then to get around that add a letter to the end of the year eg if they are both 2005 add year=2005b to your edition in the references section and then include that year (2005b) in the short citation.

I added paperback edition immediately when I started to edit the article.

One has to understand where an article like this comes from. There were four citations on this article back at the end of 2006 by the end of 2007 it carried about 130 citations. The text had not changed a lot but the article was much more reliable because of the added citations. This was done because of a general switch in Wikipedia to put more emphasis on quality rather than quantity (see Wikipedia:100,000 feature-quality articles from around that time) Part of that quality over quantity was insisting that information was supported in third party sources (citation).

I have been editing for many years on WP and have added cites to numerous uncited or inadequately cited articles. However this article is being improved with good faith edits Wikipedia:Assume good faith on my part, following Wikipedia:Be bold WP policy and others.

I suspect "Barbero 2005 pp. 85–18 is a typo it is probably meant to be "Barbero 2005 pp. 185–187" but if you have a an edition of that book you should be able to either verify it or fix it.

Its not my cite and it probably is 185-187 but I don't have that edition so can't verify, if you can you should.

The easiest way to incrementally improve the sourcing of an article is to challange all new information added to the article so that it is only added with citation to reliable sources, over time more and more of the article will then become fully cited, then when what is left of the original text that still contains no citations those can be added. WP:V insists that "Attribute all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged to a reliable" and WP:PRESERVE "Preserve appropriate content. As long as any of the facts or ideas added to the article would belong in a 'finished' article, they should be retained". The facts that are not cited need citations added in the long run, but most of the information that is not supported by inline citations is stuff that is widely known (verifiable), so there is no reason to remove it. New information added to this article tends to be details and it is very likely that such details are not so widely know. Ie it is easy to write a stub article "In 1815 the Duke of Wellington Anglo-British army defeated Napoleon's French Army at the Battle of Waterloo" as just about everyone in the English speaking world know know that much even if they got it from Abba. The devil citations as they say is in the detail. So if you think that paragraphs like "Napoleon, with the reserves..." (initially added back in August 2007), Fighting continued around..." (Feb 2007 -- actually the note contains a citation which seems to cover the first half of the paragraph), "Wellington's infantry responded..." (Sep 2007) etc, needs a citation then the obvious thing to do is add an inline "citation needed" template to the end of the paragraph with a hidden comment "for all of the paragraph" to make it clear it is not just the last sentence in the paragraph that needs a citation. -- PBS (talk) 15:50, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

It seems there is something of a contradiction here. If a paragraph has an ending cite that covers what was previously said it cannot exclude the addition of new verified information. If something has to go - since the expanding of verifiable information is a primary goal of WP - its the cite that locks out adding new verified information, not the other way around. I have retained appropriate content even though it has to be rearranged because of new verifiable information. As to those uncited paragraphs, they can be tagged, or deleted as editors see fit. The point was they are there and have been there without this sort of discussion about reverts.

Beyond that, the article, whether it has previously met the WP criteria for GA or not, needs work both in information, NPOV and style. For example, when its said in the lede that Waterloo was "the nearest-run thing you ever saw in your life" (and I agree with this cited stement) this has to shown to be in the rest of the article - that's where my edits are going and both Barbero and Hofschroer, as sources, can make this a more accurate of the closeness of the battle and a less biased account of Waterloo.Tttom1 (talk) 16:46, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I think we are talking past ourselves about citations and paragraphs. Let us take a paragraph that consists of two sentences.

"The girls came from Liverpool, England. They both had dark hair.^{source a}"

Let us suppose a new pharse is added

"The girls came from Liverpool, in north-west England.^{source b}" They both had dark hair.^{source a}"

Let us suppose that source b is an atlas type source not one about the girls. We have now lost text–source integrity. This can be fixed so:

"The girls came from Liverpool,^{source a} in north-west England.^{source b}" They both had dark hair.^{source a}"

So the original citation at the end of a pragraph does not "lock out adding new verified information" into the paragraph, it is just that if information is inserted into text that is supported by citations, care must be taken with the placement of old citations so that text–source integrity is not lost. The other way this can be done is

"The girls came from Liverpool, in north-west England.^{source a;source b} They both had dark hair.^{source a}"

or

"The girls came from Liverpool, north-west England. They both had dark hair.^{source a;source b}"

It depends on exactly what is being inserted where, and what the editor considers the best solution, but which ever solution is chosen it can not be

"The girls came from Liverpool, in north-west England.^{source b}" They both had dark hair.^{source a}

as that looses text–source integrity. In a similar way if the same paragraph exists in a paragraph without a source:

"The girls came from Liverpool, England. They both had dark hair."

If source b is added then there also needs to be a citation needed so that it is clear that source be does not cover the girls:

"The girls came from Liverpool, in north-west England ^{source b} They both had dark hair."

-- PBS (talk) 23:03, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

My edits are good faith edits and are improving the article, in most cases expanding and elaborating statements already made, nor contradicting them, and not specifically cited that I can tell. But, to follow your line of reasoning: If I add to: "The girls came from Liverpool, England. They both had dark, wavy^{source b} hair.^{source a}"its ok because it is about the girls?Tttom1 (talk) 01:30, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I think what I have been doing is this which is ok: The sun is pretty big,[1] but the moon is not so big.[2] The sun is also quite hot.[3] and not this:

The sun is pretty big, but the moon is not so big.[1] The sun is also quite hot.[2] - from WP:INTEGRITY.Tttom1 (talk) 01:39, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Mindful of what you said above and your example I checked on the work I did on this paragraph -

Before my edit & cite the para read so:

Some 20,000 French troops had been committed to this attack. Its failure cost Napoleon not only heavy casualties – 3,000 prisoners were taken – but valuable time, as the Prussians now began to appear on the field to his right. Napoleon sent his reserve, Lobau's VI corps and two cavalry divisions, some 15,000 troops, to hold them back. With this, Napoleon had committed all of his infantry reserves, except the Guard, and he now had to beat Wellington not only quickly, but with inferior numbers.[76]

Nice, short with a cite at the end that indicates it covers the paragraph just like the other paras.

Thinking 3,000 prisoners was a lot out of the 3 brigades starting with maybe 6,000. I had looked around and I had changed it to this when I found Barbero's more conservative 2,000 captured:

Some 20,000 French troops had been committed to this attack. Its failure cost Napoleon not only heavy casualties with over 2,000 prisoners taken,[103] but valuable time, as the Prussians now began to appear on the field to his right. Napoleon sent his reserve, Lobau's VI corps and two cavalry divisions, some 15,000 troops, to hold them back. With this, Napoleon had committed all of his infantry reserves, except the Guard, and he now had to beat Wellington not only quickly, but with inferior numbers.[104]

since you have an issue with this sort of citing I thought I could easily check this, since I'm also working from Hofschroer and happen to have that edition, and if I've disturbed the Text–source integrity of the para it would be probably simple to fix. It turns out that Hofschroer 1999 p.122 not only doesn't cover this para, it doesn't even support the sentence it follows beyond mentioning Lobau's name. Can you indicate which paras in article have cites covering the entire para?.Tttom1 (talk) 03:01, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

@Tttom1 you wrote But, to follow your line of reasoning: If I add to: "The girls came from Liverpool, England. They both had dark, wavy^{source b} hair.^{source a}"its ok because it is about the girls? No it is not OK because the citation "a" at the end now only covers the word hair (and presumably that they are girls but possible not that they are from Liverpool). If you want to imply that both of them cover that they come from Liverpool you would be better to place both citations at the end as what you are producing is a combined summary of both citations. "The girls came from Liverpool, England. They both had dark, wavy hair.^{source a;source b}"

As to your question. I was in favour of placing citations before full stops if the citation only supported a sentence, and after the full stop if it supported the text from the start of the paragraph (or the text from the last citation), but that was a battle I long since lost at WP:MOS and WP:CITE, so I am no more able than you to tell if a citation supports the whole paragraph or just the last sentence of the paragraph. But as a fail safe assume it covers the paragraph. If someone such as you has the source then you can verify it and change it as appropriate including using {{citation needed}} where appropriate, before just the sentence covered by the source. -- PBS (talk) 10:58, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I think assuming a source covers an entire para is contrary to the whole idea of citations and editing. Personally, I think the opposite should be assumed that the citation covers only that one sentence unless there is an indication in the citation that it covers the whole para. With hundreds of possible sources for a subject like this ( I think there are nearly 60 entries now in the bibliography) it is beyond any editor's ability to check them all in order to edit. The use in this article of this style of reference makes it difficult, but not impossible, to give more clarity in the reference beyond a page number and it is the brevity of the citation style that clouds the intent and extent of the citation. Citations are supposed to clarify and support, not obscure and lock out. I found one para, so far, where I could figure out that the cite covered the whole para: Throughout the late afternoon, Zieten's I Corps..., I checked that page and was surprised to find an essential statement omitted. I added statement and then added to the cite so: Hofschröer & 1999 paragraph inclusive, p. 125. A bit awkward perhaps but better than having to guess, or assume, or buy 60 books.Tttom1 (talk) 15:37, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Tttom you write "I think assuming a source covers an entire para is contrary to the whole idea of citations and editing." -- this statement is contrary to common practice. It was long ago agreed that placing a citation on every sentence was not desirable, and that it would be assumed that a citation covers everything since the start of a paragraph or the last citation/{{citation needed}} which ever comes first. If you do not agree with this statement then please ask at either the reliable sources notice board or WT:CITE and check what the consensus is. Otherwise assume good faith and accept that a citation covers everything since the start of a paragraph or the last citation/{{citation needed}} which ever comes first. Obviously if you find something is not covered by a citation then add a citation that does but add the previous citation to the rest of the paragraph to maintain text–source integrity. -- PBS (talk) 12:12, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

I hear you and I see some of your contributions to this discussions. I'll work with this as best I can. I see the solution I suggest - adding paragraph inclusive - as a simple solution that is not misleading, or confusing, and saving a lot of effort to check some statement. Do we also assume a cite after 2 or 3 paragraphs covers all paragraphs?Tttom1 (talk) 03:24, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

There is a problem with this reference's isbn: Hofschröer, Peter (1999), 1815: The Waterloo Campaign. The German Victory 2, London: Greenhill Books, ISBN 978-1-85367-368-9, the last # is 9 but the last # shown in my 1999 hard cover is 4 and its also 4 on amazon for the paperback. I'm also finding that some of the cites to this don't match pages given.Tttom1 (talk) 05:51, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Multiple sources

It is vital that the article remains multiply sourced for all major assertions and that any disagreements between sources are highlighted. Older sources tend to be infected by jingoism and newer sources by bias and the need of authors to sell books by being controversial. Hamilton-Williams' hobby-horse was the underestimation of the Dutch-Belgian contribution, and some of his assertions were demolished by Hofschroer. In turn Hofschroer's axe-grinding was that virtually everyone on the field of Waterloo who wasn't French was German, and that Wellington was a duplicitous liar in his dealings with Blucher. These assertions have also been successfully challenged, at least in the greatest part, by other experts. Great care is needed, don't rely overly on one source, especially concerning analysis. Urselius (talk) 08:43, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I recently heard a book review on the BBC world service of some of the books already published in anticipation of the 200 anniversary year of the Battle of Waterloo, it included a review of the non fictional account of Waterloo History of Four Days, Three Armies and Three Battles by Bernard Cornwell (the author of the Sharpe series), to the best of my recollection, one of the reviewers mentioned that there have been more publications (articles, books, etc) about the Battle of Waterloo than there have been days since 18 June 1815, in which case we have plenty of books and papers to choose from! -- PBS (talk) 11:08, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Just started reading Hamilton-Williams, (one penny on Amazon) his introduction explains the problems with Siborne, as a reliable source, quite fully.Tttom1 (talk) 03:31, 29 November 2014 (UTC)