Talk:List of vegans

Sourcing policy

The policy can be read at Wikipedia:Verifiability. This allows self-published sources in articles such as this (see the section SELFPUB), as follows:

Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, usually in articles about themselves or their activities, without the requirement in the case of self-published sources that they be published experts in the field, so long as:

1. the material is not unduly self-serving and exceptional in nature;
2. it does not involve claims about third parties;
3. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source;
4. there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;
5. the article is not based primarily on such sources.

This policy also applies to pages on social networking sites such as Twitter, Tumblr, and Facebook.

Names needing sources

Please list here names missing or removed from the page because of poor sourcing, then tick when the name is restored.

• Maneka Gandhi Y
• Wayne Pacelle Y
• Heather Nicholson Y
• Ruben Studdard Y
• Wade Keller Y
• Elissa Sursara Y
• Natalie Portman (former)Y
• Sean Brennan (redirect to his band)Y
• Justin Pearson Y
• Bethany Black Y
• Elijah Joy
• Marcus Patrick Y
• David Straitjacket Y
• Hunter Burgan Y
• Kevin Cameron (redirect to his band)
• Christofer Drew Ingle (redirect to his band) Y
• Oliver Sykes (redirect to his band) Y (as of 2012-05-08, he's vegetarian, not vegan)
• Warren Oakes
• Jona Weinhofen Y
• Marion Jones
• Eric Litman Y
• Jamie Kilstein Y
• Juli Crockett
• Morrissey
• Pamela Anderson

A short list

• Tom Lenk of Buffy fame has stated he his on his way to full fledged veganism and has not consumed animal products for over a year

• Uri Geller

Sources = http://www.vegtv.com/videolist_celebrities.htm / http://www.animal-lib.org.au/interviews/uri/

Discuss.

I wouldn't trust Uri Geller. He advocated veganism in The Vegan Society's first film 'Truth or Dairy' (1994), yet ate yoghurt on a live breakfast TV programme not long after (causing the Society considerable embarrassment).

96.224.202.145 02:27, 24 September 2007 (UTC)RussellSimmons

he is also a vegan if you checked his episode of cribs (mtv) he tells you that and he does yoga

Ted Danson

I deleted Ted Danson from this list because the source quoted mentions that he eats fish

Suggestions

I've taken a look at the some of the latest featured lists, and I've put together three suggestions (see User:SlimVirgin/tables), the first two incorporating images of the people alongside their entry, where one exists. We could still run a series of larger images down the side of the page if we wanted to.

The first table wouldn't allow section editing, though it's good because the names and countries are sortable in alphabetical order. But no section editing would lead to edit conflicts and would be hard on machines with less memory. The second suggestion retains the table and images, but would present each country in its own section as now.

The beauty of these is that templates are kept to a minimum, so they should be relatively easy to load and edit. I would be quite interested in working on this over time to get it to FL status, if anyone is willing to help. Any thoughts?

SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:18, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Wouldn't the pictures make the page size a little on the large size? Both in download and scrolling terms. I don't think it should be split by country, to me that makes no more sense than splitting it in to something like age groups. The one with the little flags looks okay, perhaps with occupation also sortable. Muleattack (talk) 01:33, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

You could be right about the images, but it does look good (I took it from a featured list, List of amphibians of Michigan). But I'd be fine with any of the suggestions. My only concern is that the first and third options remove section-editing. I'm thinking we should make the page easy to edit for new editors, because these list articles are often an entry point into Wikipedia. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:41, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Muleattack and I have already decided on a table format which we were both happy with at Talk:List_of_vegans/Temp#Table_example. It is a shame it has taken you half a year to come around but like Muleattack I oppose having images in the table, I oppose division by nationality, and I support sorting of occupation. Pretty much like Muleattack and I decided in the table we drafted out. But I am no longer willing to discuss editing decision with you without meditiation. I have started a discussion at Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#List_of_vegans, and will only discuss further changes at the DR board now. The only reason I am commenting here is so you cannot claim a consensus over Muleattack's objections. If you undertake any more changes without engaging at DR board, I will take the case up at the administrator board since DR is compelling, as you well know being an admin. Betty Logan (talk) 01:44, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Here are some thoughts that I had while looking at your examples:

- It's amazing what images can do for a list. The little images in your examples would make the list so much more pleasant to look through. If we could find a way to make that work, it would be great.

- The vertical size of each entry will be increased if we add the images, so more scrolling will be required, but, because the list is alphabetized and will have sorting options, I think this is a minor issue. Especially when we take into consideration how much more pleasant the images will make the list.

- How much will little thumbnail images like these increase page loading time? (Keep in mind that the list is going to be expanding at a pretty rapid rate.)

- Are we likely to have trouble finding images that won't be deleted by the image police for alleged copyright violation?

- The entries in your examples have just one reference each and the appearance is cleaner and more appealing that way. However, having several references for each entry to show current diet status, and even past status, has proven to be very useful for keeping entries on the list and for settling disputes. Perhaps we can have a section below the list for all of the extra ref links, or maybe even a separate page for all of the extra refs to help keep the list page cleaner and loading faster?

- Do we really need/want to list country of origin for something like this? Is there perhaps some more appropriate piece of information we could put in that column? --Andomedium (talk) 23:10, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi, these are my own two preferences below. Of the two, I prefer Suggestion 1 without the section headers, because it looks neater. However, I think we would run into trouble without section headers -- the page might be slow to load with lots of names on it, and there would be more edit conflicts.

If we are going to have section headers (see Suggestion 2), the ones that make most sense are country of origin, because it's the only thing that's stable. A person's occupation can change and can be ambiguous.

As for whether the small images (and they would have to be freely licensed, so not every entry would have one) would slow things down too much, I have no idea. The fewer templates we have on the page, the faster the load time. How much a lot of images will add, I don't know. Perhaps we should start creating the page on a subpage to see how it works out? It would be a lot of work to do that, but we could do it slowly over time.

As for having one footnote after each name to keep it neat, I agree. But remember that we can have multiple references within each footnote, between one set of ref tags, so we can have the best of both worlds.

Example:

<ref>[http://caroljadams.com "Carol J. Adams"], caroljadams.com, accessed 2 September 2011.

*Hutchinson, Jane and Field, Melissa. [http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,21753239-5006011,00.html "Cooking with the stars"], ''The Daily Telegraph'', 20 May 2007.</ref>

Produces:

And you can do this with citation templates too, simply by placing them between just one set of ref tags. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:48, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the info about combining refs. No objection from me. Was just listing some thoughts. Do you know if there are many of these lists that have images? If so we could combine the source text of several lists into one list to see how a really large list with images behaves. --Andomedium (talk) 21:33, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Suggestion 1

Name	Country of origin	Occupation	Image	Source
Carol J. Adams	United States	Eco-feminist writer
Andrew Günsberg	Australia	Radio and television presenter	File:Andrewg.jpg

Australia

Name	Occupation	Image	Source
Andrew Günsberg	Radio and television presenter	File:Andrewg.jpg

United States

Name	Occupation	Image	Source
Carol J. Adams	Eco-feminist writer

If pictures aren't available for some people then they will have far less prominence in the list than others. I really don't think pictures are a good idea even though it does look nice. Muleattack (talk) 21:00, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

The vegetarians who aren't yet on the list have far less prominence than those who are on the list.

Should we remove the ones who are on the list to keep things fair until we're ready to add them all?

My point being that we shouldn't refrain from adding content for one person just because that same content isn't yet available for another.

As is stated at the top of the page, "this is an incomplete list, which may never be able to satisfy particular standards for completeness".

For the people who don't yet have an image available, we can insert an "Image Needed" placeholder image.

Hopefully, over time, editors will add images for the people who don't yet have them.

In the mean time, at least some of the people will have images (quite a few actually).

Also, keep in mind that we already have images to the right of the list that give greater prominence to a few people, so it's not exactly a new concept. --Andomedium (talk) 17:33, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps we could set up a subpage at Talk:List of vegans/draft and start slowly creating the table. I would suggest trying it with images to begin with, and section headers with country of origin (to allow section editing). And if it doesn't look good for some reason, we can move things around once we have the basic table in place. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:45, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good. I noticed that the List of vegetarians has a category declaration for having "inconsistent citation formats". To archive FL quality is this something that needs to be dealt with? Should we decide on an ideal citation format and convert all existing citations to that format? Is that permitted? --Andomedium (talk) 18:06, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm currently working on adding the tables here. Feel free to move the draft to a different location if you prefer. --Andomedium (talk) 17:30, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I noticed that that you were making changes to the article so I put the table work on hold until you're finished. While waiting I wrote a program that will do the table work for us so just let me know when you're ready and I'll make a draft here. --Andomedium (talk) 07:10, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi sorry, I didn't see these posts when I posted here yesterday. Yes, these are great ideas -- if you can automate the process that will save a huge amount of time. Please proceed as you see fit; the only thing to note is that we probably need to retain section editing to fulfill the FL criteria, so we can't have one long table without subsections, and country of birth seems the most obvious one because it isn't going to change.

Agreeing on a common citation style is a good idea too; see the last section on this page that I started yesterday. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:59, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Just seen the most recent version of the article. It's far too big, and you didn't have consensus to make the change. The pictures are too much and make the article difficult to read. Muleattack (talk) 00:16, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Just to add, that if sorting by name is the only option and it's still divided in to countries then it's pretty pointless being in a sortable table, the whole idea of that suggestion was so that you could find a name without knowing the country. Who wants to look at a list of names in reverse alphabetical order by surname? Muleattack (talk) 00:20, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Citation styles

The page is a bit of a mix of styles at the moment. I don't mind which we use, but this is what I've been writing in case it's helpful.

For books: Smith, John. Name of Book. Name of Publisher, 2012, p. 1.

Note: We don't need ISBNs and location (though if you want to add them, that's fine).

For newspaper articles: Flood, Alison. "John Kinsella writes of poetry's 'responsibility to bring change'", The Guardian, 14 December 2011.

Note: For newspapers, we don't need access dates, page numbers, name of publisher, or any of the other things the citation templates have parameters for. Access dates are needed only for webpages or articles that have no publication date, or for a webpage that looks as though it might disappear at any minute.

When adding a page from the Internet archive, we don't need the original URL and the archived one, or archive date etc (though, again, if people want to add that, it's fine). It's enough just to substitute the original URL for the archived one.

Hope this helps, SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:07, 18 May 2012 (UTC)