Talk:Bernie Madoff

Ethnicity

This article is outrageous, prejudiced, and biased! In the (similar) case of Conrad Black, reference to his 'British' ancestry and 'Roman Catholic' religious background is foremost: "Conrad Moffat Black, Baron Black of Crossharbour, PC, OC, KCSG (born 25 August 1944, in Montreal, Quebec) is a Canadian-born British historian, columnist and publisher who was for a time the third biggest newspaper magnate in the world.[1] He is currently incarcerated at the Coleman Federal Correctional Complex in Florida,[2]." His categories are as follows: Categories: 1944 births | British biographers | British businesspeople | British conservatives | British criminals | British fraudsters | British historians | British mass media owners | British newspaper publishers (people) of the 20th century | British newspaper publishers (people) of the 21st century | British Roman Catholics | Canadian Business Hall of Fame | Carleton University alumni | Converts to Roman Catholicism | Corporate scandals | Historians of the United States | Jailed UK peers | Life peers | Living people | McGill University alumni | Members of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada | Officers of the Order of Canada | Ontario writers | People from Toronto | People from Montreal | Université Laval alumni | Upper Canada College alumni | White-collar criminals.

If this article is not edited to reflect Wikipedia's practice of INCLUDING the ethnicity of infamous British Christians, I will make a point of it in other media and to regulatory bodies including human rights. Academentia (talk) 18:32, 29 June 2009 (UTC) academentia

As of 12:42 June 29, 2009 his ethnicity // religion has been reflected as per status quo. Academentia (talk) 18:44, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I have made an edit to include Madoff's Jewish ethnicity in the lead. I refer to WP:MOSBIO which states that referring to ethnicity in the lead should be avoided, except where relevant to the subject's notability. In this case the Jewish community has been directly affected by Madoff's actions, and his ethnicity is directly relevant to this.

See this article for an example - Madoff Wall Street fraud threatens Jewish philanthropy. "One charity already closed and insiders are worried that the ramifications of Madoff's financial demise may extend to the many organizations he supported and the wealthy Jews he advised"

I welcome some constructive debate on this matter.

Beganlocal (talk) 18:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Why are you people trying to hide the fact that he's a Jew? Don't tell me you believe it's irrelevant or smth like that. Charles Ponzi's Italian descent is all over the place in his article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.120.253.157 (talk) 19:49, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

See my comments above. Please refrain from speaking in a non-constructive fashion. Feketekave (talk) 01:23, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Your attempt to rationalize things the way you do isn't convincing. A lot of people will want to know some basic things about the man (either from the categories at the bottom or the factbox on the right) and ethnicity, occupation, place of birth are clearly relevant, just as they are for any other person of some importance. Removing him from the relevant categories is clearly an attempt to hide his ethnicity and your arguments are not going to convince me or a lot of other people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.120.253.157 (talk) 07:42, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

A classification by descent isn't a fact about him - it's a fact about you.

At the same time, his *acting* in an "ethnic" way - belonging to ethnically constituted clubs, being involved in ethnic matters - is relevant to his life and career, in that he managed to use that to con. I have made no attempt to hide that. Feketekave (talk) 11:33, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Incidentally, the same absurd accusation about "hiding" has been made by other people - whose motivations are possibly not the same as yours - when myself or others have opposed categorising individuals who are famous for their contributions, as opposed to damage caused. Feketekave (talk) 11:36, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I think ethnicity helps define an individual, for better or worse. I would never oppose categorising Jews or any other people based on ethnicity who have positive merits. You're jumping to conclusions by assuming I'm an anti-semite. All I said was that it's relevant and should be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.120.253.157 (talk) 18:01, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Is it ethinicity or just poor greed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by BlkBeard (talk • contribs) 06:23, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Furtive admirer is repeatedly reverting the article by removing the mention of Madoff's Jewish origin in the "Personal" section despite most Jewish people being rightfully referred to as such in Wikipedia. Removal of factual information is in clear violation of Wikipedia's NPOV rules, even more so when arguments such as [1] and [2] are used. Here are a few similar Wikipedia articles about prominent people of Jewish origin with wording very similar to what is repeatedly removed in the Madoff article :

Albert Einstein : Youth and schooling Albert Einstein was born into a Jewish family in Ulm, in the Kingdom of Württemberg in the German Empire on March 14,

Sigmund Freud : Early life Sigmund Freud was born on 6 May 1856 to Galician Jewish[2] parents in P?íbor (German: Freiberg in Mähren), Moravia, Austrian Empire, now Czech Republic.

Milton Friedman : Early life Friedman was born on July 31, 1912, in Brooklyn, New York, to recent Jewish immigrants from Beregszász in Hungary

Alan Greenspan : biography Greenspan was born in 1926 to a Hungarian Jewish family in the Washington Heights area of New York City.[9]

Karl Marx : biography Karl Heinrich Marx was born in Trier, in the Kingdom of Prussia's Province of the Lower Rhine as the third of his parents' seven children. His father, Heinrich Marx (1777–1838), born Herschel Mordechai, the son of Levy Mordechai (1743-1804) and Eva Lwow (1753-1823), descended from a long line of rabbis but converted to Lutheran Christianity,

Levi Strauss : Levi Strauss, born Löb Strauß (February 26, 1829 – September 26, 1902) was a German-Jewish immigrant to the United States[1]

Why should the wording that's deemed appropriate for these people be considered inappropriate for Madoff ? This is particularly relevant, as his sale technique have been characterized as an affinity fraud. Belonging to the community that is defrauded is a key issue in any affinity fraud. 70.30.244.50 (talk) 23:09, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I've been watching this page a while, and basically Feketekave has made it a one man mission to erase any mention of race or ethnicity from the article. If you look through his talk page, s/he doesn't believe in categorizing anyone by race or ethnicity regardless of whether people agree a person is of a race or ethnicity. For example, Feketekave has lost in the dispute on Talk:Albert_Einstein, which is a page watched more closely by established users. In the end, it's just about who cares more about this, and some anon arguing with an established account isn't going to get very far. If you go through the talk page archives here, it's clear there's a lot of opposition against removal of ethnic info, but obviously we haven't made it our mission to include this info, so we're not going to spend our lives reverting people like Feketekave and Furtive Admirer. --C S (talk) 00:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Why do you select these bios? Why not Muslims, Catholics, Wasps, Greek Orthodox, etc./ Your motives are tranparent. You are a vandalizer and a harasser. The Personal section remains clean. Go find another religion to write about. Furtive admirer (talk) 02:20, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Furtive Admirer, this is a personal attack and violates wikipedia policy. Please cease all such violations of WP:CIV and WP:NPA. That said,(talk) clearly demonstrates the point. This is a clearly established trend among biographies in wikipedia and follows WP:BOLP standards. As C S mentioned, please see Talk:Albert_Einstein . Bernard Madoff is Jewish. The New York Times confirms this and this meets WP:VERIFIABILITY and WP:SOURCES . See the article here . Further Jewish sources confirm this: Jewish Journal and Haaretz . Moreover, it is even more salient, as (talk) mentioned, due to the affinity fraud committed by Madoff. These articles clearly touch on the point of the effect his actions have had on the Jewish community. It seems that it was removed against consensus formed in the section Talk:Bernard_Madoff#Rabbi_wants_Madoff_excommunicated_for_bringing_shame_on_Jewish_people . I am fixing this now. Magemirlen (talk) 13:25, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

The consenus in that section appears to refer to this version, where Madoff's Jewish background is mentioned in the 'personal' section, rather than in the intro. Albert Einstein and the other articles mentioned above as examples handle it the same way; none of them refer to the subject as Jewish in the lede. While there may be a consensus to include the information in the article, there isn't one to put it in the lede and it's contrary to the way such information is handled in other similar articles, so I'm reverting that change. -- Vary Talk 15:44, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

According to your logic, you should have added that information into the 'personal section' and not removed it wholesale. I will go ahead and take care of that now. Magemirlen (talk) 16:07, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

You do that. What's with the attitude? -- Vary Talk 16:09, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I don't see what "attitude" you are referring to. Please avoid from making personal attacks such as saying I have an "attitude" as this violates WP:NPA. You made a point about the information being in the wrong section, but instead of moving it, you just erased it. I agreed with your original statement and made the corrective changes. Thanks though for pointing out that the personal section was the more appropriate place for the information. Please feel free to take up the matter in my talk page if you feel the need to address this further. Magemirlen (talk) 16:19, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

My point is that there's no 'should have' here. I'm under no obligation to move anything anywhere. I did nothing to prevent or discourage you from putting the information you wanted added to the article in the appropriate place. Phrases like 'according to your logic', 'just erased it' and 'removed it wholesale' seem to imply otherwise. That may not have been your intent, but the comment did come across as an accusation. -- Vary Talk 16:58, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Why isn't Dona Branca's, Nicholas Cosmo's, or Allen Stanford's religion on their page at all? It seems inconsistent and unnecessary to include religion on con artists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.193.222 (talk) 22:12, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Please see above comments. 1) This has been explained ad nauseam and consensus has been formed (again, see above). 2) This is a standard on BLP pages. Even if it were not, it is specially relevant on this BLP page as numerous sources, that have been documented above and within the article, have commented on the effect the allegations have had on the Jewish community. This is seen as some as alleged affinity fraud. If you feel the need to go add to those pages you mentioned, feel free to do so. 3) You're comment "con artists" is a POV attack on the BLP in question. No allegation has been proven. This violates WP:BLP and has no bearing in this case. Magemirlen (talk) 02:54, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Has this issue been resolved? I haven't checked in for a while. It seems silly to me to remove any reference to his religion. Question is degree of emphasis and whether it should go into the box at the top of the page. You also need to put in about Eli Wiesel, which was in the news today. --JohnnyB256 (talk) 23:27, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

You've all been arguing about whether the word Jew should be included in the article. Don't worry, from this discussion here, I already know it. LOL. Wikipedia, where common consensus rules supreme. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.72.17.91 (talk) 07:16, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

If all other's are mentioned along with their nationalities and religions attached to their demise than jews also must get their fair share. But we don't want to discriminate against jews. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.223.220.2 (talk) 12:41, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd have to agree. I've visited the page prior to this story blowing up, and it featured the man's ethnicity prominently. Now almost all mention of his background has been removed, as if there was some coordinated effort to conceal this fact. This is a DISTURBING development to say the least, the cabal that engages in this type of manipulative and selective editing should be identified and removed. Koalorka (talk) 02:32, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I realize that I am a newcomer to this article, but doesn't anyone think that the first paragraph of the Personal life section is a little redundant and blatant? Deyyaz ^{[ Talk | Contribs ]} 22:58, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I corrected some of the parts vandalized by 66.146.146.43 and his/her likes. His/her hate speech here in the talk page is the best argumentation I could ever give for my edits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PaulArctic (talk • contribs) 18:54, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

This seems to be a very heated topic, but in all honesty, his ethnicity played a tremendous factor in garnering the trust of his religious and ethnic community to coax many investors into the largest Ponzi scheme in history. I'd be terribly disappointed if all this fuss was simply about an ethnic group wanting to disassociate themselves from an infamous participant in their heritage. Every ethnicity and religion has characters which it would wish to forget, but it would be egregious to remove all ethnic ties simply because of negative views or stereotyping. This is history, and the facts should be clear. It would be no better to remove any reference to Hitler being Austrian or Ponzi being Italian. I encourage that his ethnicity be included and this page be locked from any further vandalism that attempts to remove this fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.114.56.205 (talk) 23:12, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I can understand your point. There are two things:

(a) In general, there is a trend in Wikipedia towards classifying people by blood that I, for one, find simply disturbing. It is also completely out of line with all print encyclopaedias, except, of course, for self-proclaimed encyclopaedias whose aims are to glorify one particular group. "Ethnicity" is being used here not to mean some loose characterisation of a more or less ill-defined group of people who share a language or environment, but rather as a replacement for what before WWII would have erroneously been called a race.

It is especially disturbing to see tags and "Lists of X". Given how the policies of the Third Reich started - namely, by race laws - it is natural to have a particularly strong reaction when X=Jew (or X=Gypsy, I suppose); at the same time, the same case against these tags and lists can be made for any value of X, where X is apparently defined by blood rather than by an individual environment's or actions.

The same goes for what may be taken to be negative references or excessive references within the biography of an arguably contemptible man: they have more power to disturb, but what is wrong about them is probably wrong about uncalled-for positive references as well.

(b) At the same time, keeping only references to somebody's so-called ethnicity if somebody is a very nice man is arguably a case of systemic bias. This is particularly so if this tendency holds more for some values of X than others (say, again, X = Jew).

My personal view is that the trend in (a) should and will be reversed, but that will be a gradual process. In the meantime, perhaps we should use this opportunity to think critically about the matter.

The case of Madoff is actually almost too interesting to be a perfect test case. We are not talking simply about somebody whose parents happened to be of a particular religion (or whose great-grandparents presumably spoke a particular language or languages). Madoff was very active in Jewish communal organisations and belonged to clubs whose exclusiveness was in part a specifically Jewish exclusiveness (in that they were clubs for people who regarded each other as Jews) but not a particularly Jewish exclusiveness (other clubs and other old-boy networks are just as exclusive, and there are many more of them). Finally, Madoff presumably used religious and familiar ties not just to deceive others directly, but also to make people trust in him to the extent of becoming willing or unwitting accomplices in his plans. Thus, mentioning the entire ethnic thing only in the context of victimhood doesn't make sense.

For the while being, we could simply rewrite the first couple of sentences of Madoff's biography in such a way that he is no longer *defined* by his parentage; we can then make sure that his actions are still fully *described* whether or not they include a religious or "ethnic" component. Feketekave (talk) 10:12, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Feketekave, mentioning ethnicity in a family section/early life section ect. is pretty "standard" as far a bios go. Not sure what the problem is or why one would remove it and the category. Also, as a point of order, can we please keep this talk page limited to how to improve the article and not have it be a forum for wider ethnicity discussions ect. Anyways, what do others think? Thanks, --Tom (talk) 15:13, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

First thing I noticed about this was the odd "Jewish" in front of "former businessman" in the first sentence. Aside from his name and birthday, his Jewishness is the FIRST THING COMMUNICATED. Jumped off the page at me. The personal section communicates his Jewish ethnicity perfectly fine. I removed the adjective.Biasedbulldog (talk) 04:39, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I have made an edit to include Madoff's Jewish ethnicity in the lead. I refer to WP:MOSBIO which states that referring to ethnicity in the lead should be avoided, except where relevant to the subject's notability. In this case the Jewish community has been directly affected by Madoff's actions, and his ethnicity is directly relevant to this.

See this article for an example - Madoff Wall Street fraud threatens Jewish philanthropy. "One charity already closed and insiders are worried that the ramifications of Madoff's financial demise may extend to the many organizations he supported and the wealthy Jews he advised"

I welcome some constructive debate on this matter.

Beganlocal (talk) 18:49, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

First of all, his nationality, American, is supposed to be stated. Second of all, the sentence "Bernie Madoff is a Jewish American etc." doesn't tell me why the ethnicity is notable. If you want, you should put a sentence summarizing some of the things you stated above somewhere in the lead. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 22:19, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your edit and comments. I think it is certainly notable that the Jewish community were directly affected by his fraud, however they are not the only victims. I will try to make the appropriate edits to the lead, and would be grateful for feedback. I am new at WP. Beganlocal (talk) 09:44, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, it looks like FurtiveAdmirer or a like-minded soul has been busy at work on this article again. All mention of Madoff's ethnicity has been removed. It is obvious that these people are not editors, but rather censors who will go to great lengths to prevent people from getting access to certain kinds of information.Shiresman (talk) 16:23, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

reference request and "Others possibly involved"

First, could people please use a template for references such as the following:

<ref name="">{{cite news 
  | last =
  | first =
  | coauthors =
  | title =
  | work =
  | pages =
  | language =
  | publisher =
  | date =
  | url =
  | accessdate =  }}</ref>

It should make going through the footnotes easier and be a lot neater.

The Section "Others possibly involved" I promoted from a sub-section of Criminal charges. It should be kept seperate (at least if they others are not charged). At first glance this is a pretty ballsy section - it might be interpreted as if we are saying that these guys are guilty of something. At a minimum, we need to be careful here. But I do agree that this section is needed. It explains a lot about what seems to have been going on. It is well documented, it is not us saying these things, it is major reliable sources, and we have just compliled that info.

My question is more prosaic. What order should these folks go in? Alphabetical? Any order implicitly says something, but I think our order just came in a haphazard manner. Yet there is some logic to it - it looks like the people closest to Madoff are mentioned first, and the big organizations (who may have had a bigger, if more distant effect) come later. If anybody can think of a more objective, logical order please put it in. Otherwise (but no rush at all), I'll say it should go in alphabetical order, which implicitly says - "We don't know any other logical order for this!"

Cheers,

Funny math

They said he may owe investors $65 billion, and that he would therefore be fined $170, based on twice the amount of $65 billion. However, 2 × $65 billion is $130 billion, not $170. So, where does the extra $40 billion in restitution come from ? StuRat (talk) 14:52, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I think you've got it right, but it is the government's math and reliable sources haven't reported this as a discrepancy! There's obviously more to it, but we'd have to be very careful not to put in our own OR. Maybe somebody can find a source that actually does explain it, or maybe somebody could VERY CAREFULLY expalin this perhaps ending with ".. the extra $40 billion has not been explained." Smallbones (talk) 09:55, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

philantropist != political donor

Why is this in the head section? 74.85.42.110 (talk) 05:15, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Victim of injustice

I am a bit concerned that this article in slanted. There is no mention or provision that he might have been a victim of hastily arranged injustice. The fact that he was brought to trial and convicted within 6 months of being arrested raises suspicion in my mind. There appears to be an untold story here - Mr Madoff certainly hasn't told his side yet. I think the Madoffs are getting railroaded. I think this article is heavily anti-semitic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.54.161 (talk) 12:07, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

You've got to be kidding. This article is "slanted" because it doesn't involve your imaginings? Because it doesn't include the defense he did not present? Because he acknowledges his guilt and the article accurately says so? Wow. What a slant! --Christofurio (talk) 05:05, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

If you have evidence of injustice from a reliable secondary source please present it.

Beganlocal (talk) 18:56, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Section on documentaries

I'd previously removed the last section on documentaries - only explaining in the edit note that I thought that documentaries in themselves are not relevant, especially one's not yet shown. It's been re-inserted without comment, so I'll delete it again with further comment. I'd appreciate it if it wasn't reinserted without some support here. And I'd appreciate all comments from either side.

My feeling is that if the PBS documentary is important, then some fact or opinon from it should have been added and it simply be referenced like any other source. The fact that somebody intends to show a documentary to the public in the future doesn't strike me as relevant, except perhaps if it was some exceptional director (perhaps Michael Moore, but I'd think even then...). Smallbones (talk) 10:04, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

You probably refer to the Frontline docu which I saw here in Australia in June. After watching it, I came to the conclusion that Madoff must have had protectors who reached into the SEC. To me, the three people questioned in Congress did not look like souls who had made a regrettable mistake. They looked like people who could not say what really had happened. I bet 100 bucks (Australian) that somebody leant on them to let Madoff off.

Madoff must have been a front for something, e.g. organised crime, Nixon-type grubbiness, funding Latino guerillas, Mossad, and/or tax-evaders. He must have fronted some powerful backers, some of these and/or all of these at various times in various degrees.

There is a link to the political class with Thyssen, who were involved in German reunification criminality.

Madoff's insistence on secrecy, and that his feeders should not register as financial advisors who could have been scrutinised, indicates that he needed to remain under the radar even though he knew it was not legal. He obviously expected his powerful backers to come to the rescue should he or his feeder be found out.

In addition, the whole thing went on for a very long time and most people would have exited a successful scam sooner, rather than running the risk of if falling in a heap. He could have structured his business for retirement ten, fifteen years ago, but someone wanted him to continue and that someone would have been the one who leant on the SEC.

There are many painful lessons to be learnt from the Madoff debacle. One of them is that promoting small government means fewer tax audits. Just imagine, Madoff would have had tax auditors in his company 15 years ago! It might have cost the IRS half a million, but would have saved billions.

Madoff is a creature of US ideology and as long as that does not change, many more Madoffs will fleece you. Cutting taxes and small government breeds Madoffs - that is the lesson for the ideologues! 121.209.49.198 (talk) 04:47, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Not only is it a biographical study, and explains his chronology, but all biographical pages refer and discuss when available biographical facts in publications and media. i am reinserting it as more will be added and it will be lost when we want to locate it. Furtive admirer (talk) 20:51, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Before we get into an edit war, how about some middle ground, as I agree in part and disagree in part. The Frontline paragraph should stay, as Furtive admirer is correct that including it is consistent with how we treat other subjects, and it is also well-sourced. But the remainder should go: it violates WP:CRYSTAL, and is non-notable works by a non-notable director. There is no mention of either of those 2 documentaries in the 62nd Cannes film festival article, and the source in this article is the person talking about themselves. I will, however, wait to make this change until others have time to comment. UnitedStatesian (talk) 22:46, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I absolutely don't want an edit war, but I will remove the future documentaries paragraph in 2 days unless somebody offers a rationale for it. As for the PBS documentary - to me it looks like a source - and if it can be used as a source it should stay. We don't have a special section for "An article appeared in the New Yorker on Madoff," but we could very well have some fact (or even opinion marked as such) taken from it. Why is a PBS "article" any different?

As far as "other articles do this" - see Other stuff. Trivia or "Popular culture" sections are commonly discouraged see WP:Trivia. Finding previously inserted material is easy: just write down the date it was inserted, or put a note on this page with the specific version or diff (e.g. [3]) when it was inserted or deleted. Smallbones (talk) 08:34, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Documentaries are historical and have longevity, (long after Madoff, who is going away permanently next month without any explanation for his heinous actions) especially when it is biographical. The entire documentary has been posted on the PBS Frontline website and has been linked as a footnote. "The Madoff Affair" Watch it if you want, and then add a "fact or opinion" if it makes you fulfilled. added essential info to enhance is always desirable.. This section is neither "other stuff" nor trivia. I am certain Madoff's wife doesn't find it as such either; it is part of his legacy. Posterity should have access to a historical cultural literacy record.

If finding material - new or deleted- is so easy, I suggest deleters start doing as such, along with "substituting", rather than solely patrolling, merely scrutinizing, seeking only to delete. It is chronic. I say, keep the section as is, and watch its significance evolve!

Furtive admirer (talk) 15:07, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Since no rational has been offered for the inclusion of information on the future documentaries that might possibly be shown in the future, I am removing them. The PBS documentary is a bit different. It has already been shown and is a great piece of journalism. Nonetheless, here it is only a source - it is not relevant in and of itself, so we should treat it like a source. I fully intend to use it as a reference in the future, but for now will leave it, but only as an external link (which I inserted yesterday). Smallbones (talk) 12:56, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

A rationale has been explained, but not to your personal preference. I am reverting your sanctimonious decision without a proper consensus. Furtive admirer (talk) 16:47, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

The edits by both of you constitute an edit war, in my opinion. Please stop. Why are either of you unable to compromise (the one I suggested is perfectly reasonable)? Or go elsewhere on Wikipedia? UnitedStatesian (talk) 16:53, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's get serious

and address the nitty gritty. Here are the paragraphs:

'Documentaries

PBS's Frontline has produced a documentary on the Madoff Affair. He "consistently turned a profit for thousands of investors, entire families had their fortunes invested with him, he brokered deals with powerful hedge fund managers and feeder funds from Buenos Aires to Zurich." [65]

Producer Edmund Druilhet, is filming a major documentary movie for release in late 2009. His two projects include: "Madoff: Made Off with America," and "Satan of Wall Street". His father lost half his retirement with Madoff. His plans are to show a shorter version of the film at Cannes Film Festival in May, 2009.[66]

"This is a very important part of history," Druilhet said. "There's something really incredible that went on here and has gone on here. I think it's much deeper than what we've seen on the surface. I think that this story is going to continue to evolve."[67]'

The first sentence. OK as far as it goes, but it really doesn't say anything other than "Here's a good source" we usually handle sources in a different manner - i.e. use it as a reference for something. FA above says it references something in a footnote, but it's only a self-refernce on its own existence. But let it stay.

The second sentence. A quote from the PBS documentary - very non-specific - it's not about the documentary so it doesn't belong in a section on documentaries, rather it's an introduction to the whole affair and if it belongs anywhere it's in the lede. In short get rid of this.

2nd and 3rd paragraphs - about future documentaries that might be shown, by, as far as I can tell, a non-entity film maker and then his opinions. Violates WP:Crystal and irrelevant at the same time. Obviously get rid of it (per United Statesian).

So do we really want a section that in full reads.

'Documentaries

PBS's Frontline has produced a documentary on the Madoff Affair.'?

If FA doesn't understand this logic, I suggest that he select some proper forum or dispute resolution procedure and we follow that out. To me it just looks like he won't allow anybody to edit his contributions - even in the most obvious cases - in which case he is violating the first rule of Wikipedia:

• If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed for profit by others, do not submit it.

Smallbones (talk) 17:24, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

ok, SB, the latter documentary has not been released, so it will appear again, later. put the frontline quote in the lede and keep the external link for reference. and thanx for a fuller explanation of your concern, professor!

Furtive admirer (talk) 19:13, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Done, with one small problem. Future documentaries removed. PBS in external links (where I put it yesterday). The only problem is that I can't figure out where the quote fits in the lede. Let's let somebody else do it. The text with footnote included is:

He "consistently turned a profit for thousands of investors, entire families had their fortunes invested with him, he brokered deals with powerful hedge fund managers and feeder funds from Buenos Aires to Zurich."

Thanks to whoever can do this well. Sorry if I abbreviated people's names, but I do it with everybody. Feel free to call me SB or Smallbones, but other names sound as if you intend them to be derogatory. Smallbones (talk) 20:04, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Everyone hates him, but

There is no such thing as a "former non-executive" of anything. Get it right folks. Scarmudgeon (talk) 04:21, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Au contraire, from NPR "Madoff also served as the non-executive chairman of the Nasdaq stock market in 1990, 1991 and 1993. At that time, the Nasdaq board was an independent committee under the supervision of the National Association of Securities Dealers." I'll revert and cite. Actually there is some confusion about this: the SEC lists him as former Vice-Chairman of the NASD (which may also be true). The non-profit NASD merged and became Finra, NASDAQ was spun off by the NASD and became for-profit. There are many non-executive chairman of companies and organizations - the "non-executive" indicating that the president or other officer actually runs the organization - after the non-executive chairman leaves the post he becomes former non-executive chairman. Perhaps it's a clumsy phrase, but perfectly good English.

Also "pleaded" should not be substituted for "pled." Pleaded is a Britishism and sounds just terrible in an article about an American. I first put in the sentences about his pleadings. The rules on Wikipedia about American vs. British English are approximately 1) use American English on American articles, British on British articles 2) stick with one form or the other, and 3) when in doubt, the form 1st used should stay.

Smallbones (talk) 08:17, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like the identical obfuscations Madoff was so adept with using to perpetrate his fraud. I find the citations obscure and unreliable but I won't contest.

There is no such word as "pled", at best it's an Americanism rather than "pleaded" being a Britishism. Trivial, so I won't bother with it anymore. --Scarmudgeon (talk) 00:17, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Size of fraud

There's a story in the New York Times today about the trustee Irving Picard. The article gives the first concrete number of the size of the fraud when fictitious gains are erased: $10.1 billion. The article now has speculation about the size of the fraud minus gains, but we can now replace that with definitive numbers from Picard. Turns out to be at the low end of the estimates we now have. No need to include speculation if we have a hard number (amount put into the fraud minus withdrawals). --JohnnyB256 (talk) 14:37, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree that this type of number, rather than the $65 billion inflated number is what needs to be looked at. I didn't read the NYTimes article to have this exact meaning however (I wasn't exactly sure of what it did mean), and will try to check other sources. Just to explain to others what the fuss is about, I'll just quote the NYTimes article. Smallbones (talk) 17:08, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

"And many victims, like Ms. Chaitman, are fiercely disputing the formula Mr. Picard is using to measure claims. They say that losses should be based on the last account statement received by victims before the fraud collapsed, which totaled almost $65 billion.

But those final balances are the result of nonexistent investments and fictional profits. Mr. Picard and SIPC say they must therefore limit claims to the difference between the cash paid in and taken out of an account."

The $10.1 billion number in the NYT article has nothing to do with losses. It's about clawing back gains. "Seeking to recover more than $10.1 billion, Mr. Picard has sued several prominent Madoff victims, accusing them of being willing beneficiaries of the fraud." The Madoff trustee is going after people who made withdrawals of gains from the Madoff fund to force them to pay back their gains.

There's a distinction between the size of the fraud and what's covered by SIPC insurance coverage. SIPC coverage is not as comprehensive as FIDC coverage.[4]. If you put money in an FDIC-insured bank, and the bank goes bust, the FDIC pays out the amount your bank statement says the bank owes you. SIPC coverage is much weaker. The money that Picard is paying out comes from the SIPC.[5]. Also, the SIPC and the Madoff trustee don't pay claims of losses made by investors in the "feeder funds" that fed money into Madoff's scheme. (The feeder fund investors are suing the feeder funds and their managers, of course. See J. Ezra Merkin. The courts will have to sort out whether Merkin was a sucker or an accomplice.) --John Nagle (talk) 18:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'm not adverse to reverting it back for the moment. My reading of $10.1 billion in context is that this is the amount of investor losses he is seeking, not the clawback number. It would be very large for a clawback amount. Still, we want to be precise. The Times article could have been a lot clearer. I'd like to know if anyone else, reading that article, interpreted it as I did. --JohnnyB256 (talk) 20:16, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

The clawback numbers are huge. "Hedge funds doing business with Madoff may have made at least $10 billion in profit in the final months of Madoff’s scam."[6]. So far, the trustee has gotten back $235 million from Banco Santander, they're going after $558 million withdrawn by J. Ezra Merkin, trying to get back $150 million from some offshore investor[7], and over 200 other Madoff clients have received letters demanding money back. On the other side, about 8000 Madoff clients have put in claims wanting money. --John Nagle (talk) 04:42, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree pretty much with John Nagle. The $10.1 billion (hoped for) clawback is not the number we want, but it might set a floor on the number we want. BTW I reverted the Harvey Pitt paragraph back in. It has been noted that this is an outsider speculating and it would be better if there were a better number. Of course, but since he is about the only person giving what looks like a reasonable number .... I'd also like to say to any media people or people from the Justice Department who are reading this - don't you think that it is a shame that the American people still have no idea how much Madoff stole. Are you folks at all serious about doing your job?!! Now that I have that out off my system, I'll just repeat that everybody knows that the $65 billion number is super inflated, and I'd just like to have some realistic number on how much Madoff actually stole to put in this article. Smallbones (talk) 17:16, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

The Wall Street Journal has a list of known victims and losses. If you add those up, you get about $27.7 billion. That's a low limit. Many of the entries there have "N/A" after them. The victim doesn't have to disclose the loss amount publicly. The Madoff trustee announces what claims have been paid from SIPC funds, but hasn't given figures on pending claims. The Trustee handles mostly the smaller claims, because there's a $500,000 limit on SIPC coverage. There are at least 120 lawsuits pending, separate from what the Madoff trustee is doing. The big players each have their own lawsuit. Then there's the whole "feeder funds" issue. I've seen a $50 billion number for total losses in several news reports. --John Nagle (talk) 18:06, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'm also not against restoring the Pitt paragraph, since the murky Times story may well have been referring to the clawbacks. Yes, they are indeed tremendous. I agree with you, Smallbones, and I also think that when they write these stories they need to be clearer. John, that Wall Street Journal list may include phantom gains. Much murkiness around the whole thing. and the public has a right to more precise numbers. --JohnnyB256 (talk) 22:02, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

A definitive number is a ways off. The auditors working through Madoff's records have reported that much of what's there is phony and can't be trusted. There's an official list of Madoff clients.[8]. But it doesn't have amounts. Clients have to file claims with the trustee, or a separate lawsuit. The closing date for filing claims hasn't even been reached yet. The trustee is announcing totals of claims as they're settled, Eventually there will be a detailed accounting at the end of the bankruptcy. --John Nagle (talk) 17:46, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

More news: there's now litigation over this exact issue. The bankruptcy trustee wants to evaluate losses for SIPC insurance purposes based on the amount originally invested. The New York Times reports that "The customers say that, by law, they should be given credit for the full value of the securities shown on the last account statements they received before Mr. Madoff’s arrest in mid-December, even though they were bogus and none of the trades were ever made. According to court filings, those account balances add up to more than $64 billion." [9] This case is unusual because it's a Ponzi scheme that went on for several decades. Ordinarily, Ponzi schemes go bust in a year or so, and long-term gains aren't an issue. Here, many people had put their retirement savings into Madoff's fund, and were living off the "interest", thinking their principal was intact. That's why Madoff's fund was called "the Jewish T-Bill". --John Nagle (talk) 18:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

RfC - Jewish Ethnicity in the Lead

I repeat: This article is outrageous, prejudiced, and biased! In the (similar) case of Conrad Black, reference to his 'British' ancestry and 'Roman Catholic' religious background is foremost: "Conrad Moffat Black, Baron Black of Crossharbour, PC, OC, KCSG (born 25 August 1944, in Montreal, Quebec) is a Canadian-born British historian, columnist and publisher who was for a time the third biggest newspaper magnate in the world.[1] He is currently incarcerated at the Coleman Federal Correctional Complex in Florida,[2]." His categories are as follows: Categories: 1944 births | British biographers | British businesspeople | British conservatives | British criminals | British fraudsters | British historians | British mass media owners | British newspaper publishers (people) of the 20th century | British newspaper publishers (people) of the 21st century | British Roman Catholics | Canadian Business Hall of Fame | Carleton University alumni | Converts to Roman Catholicism | Corporate scandals | Historians of the United States | Jailed UK peers | Life peers | Living people | McGill University alumni | Members of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada | Officers of the Order of Canada | Ontario writers | People from Toronto | People from Montreal | Université Laval alumni | Upper Canada College alumni | White-collar criminals.

If this article is not edited to reflect Wikipedia's practice of INCLUDING the ethnicity of infamous British Christians, I will make a point of it in other media and to regulatory bodies including human rights. Academentia (talk) 18:35, 29 June 2009 (UTC) academentia

Per the WP guidelines, I'm going to 'be bold' and suggest a change.

I think that in this case, due to the Jewish organisations and charities he defrauded, and his use of his connections in the Jewish community to do so, I think that per WP:MOSBIO his ethnicity is indeed relevant to his notability.

Sections of the Jewish media have taken his fraud very personally indeed, and it appears to be the case that his clients, individual and corporate, have a high degree of Jewish representation.

I don't know how we go about formatting an RfC, and some assistance would be appreciated.

Perhaps once and for all we could state clearly the points for and against, reach a community decision, and most importantly provide a clear, logical, and persuasive record for future contributors to refer to.

Beganlocal (talk) 09:05, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

His involvement with and membership in Jewish organisations arguably belongs in the lead. Nothing is gained by stating his ancestry on top of that. Breaking the general rule is unnecessary. Feketekave (talk) 13:44, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

My view is that when someone relies on an ethnic network and their customs to do business, then it is admissable to mention that ethnicity, whether it is Jewish, Italian, or whatever. 121.209.49.198 (talk) 04:30, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Why mention membership in Jewish organisations in the lead? If there is some notabliity and it rises to the level that warrants inclusion in the lead, then maybe. Has that been established? TIA, --Tom (talk) 16:45, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd say no for Madoff, who wasn't very observant, but yes for J. Ezra Merkin. Merkin was head of the Fifth Avenue Synagogue and a number of other Jewish organizations. His participation in the fraud involved getting many prominent Jewish organizations and members of his synagogue to invest in Madoff's scam. So there, it's relevant. It's still an open question as to whether Merkin was a sucker or an accomplice, but as the court cases unwind, that will become clear. --John Nagle (talk) 16:53, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

What is the relevant language in WP:bio? I don't off-hand see it as indicating that it is appropriate to reflect his religion in the lead, though it is fine later in the article.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:34, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Ask and ye shall receive: "Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." WP:BIO It is clearly relevant to Merkin, and perhaps also for Madoff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beganlocal (talk • contribs) 13:55, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

No, I don't think it belongs in the opening. While Jewish organizations were among his targets, he was just too huge in his scam generally for that to warrant inclusion in the lead. It would be an overemphasis, and would be offensive to many. --JohnnyB256 (talk) 14:31, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

This is ridiculous, the word jewish is not even mentioned anywhere in this article, even though ethnicity was large factor in who he defrauded etc. It's almost as if people are making it a point NOT to mention it. Tjrover (talk) 18:57, 29 June 2009 (UTC)tjrover

I don't think it should be in the lead. But I just added to the background article, why we shouldn't mention the family was Jewish if we have sources for that? Who decides what information is to be removed? The source, The Times article, mentions it in the first sentence. Obviously it's very relevant because of his connections to Jewish donator organisations. If it's mentioned with one word in the background section, it can't be too much. --Pudeo' 21:38, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

If we take a look at article of Barack Obama, the background section goes there as far as "Stanley Ann Dunham, an American of mainly English descent from Wichita, Kansas, and Barack Obama, Sr., a Luo from Nyang’oma Kogelo, Nyanza Province, Kenya." If we can't even mention Madoff's Jewish background with just one word in the relevant section, there must be some dubious motives for some Wikipedians to remove sourced information? --Pudeo' 21:46, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

The non-mention of his Jewish background jumped out at me while reading the article, both because it's clearly standard practise in wiki' bios to mention ethnicity/religion where apparent, and because it's very relevant to his crimes (watching the cable coverage today it would seem the vast majority of his victims were wealthy Jews and Jewish charities, who presumably made contact with him through Jewish social circles). -- stewacide (talk) 23:16, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Misc. stuff

• Removed mention of Madoff as "former treasurer of the American Jewish Congress". He wasn't, according to the Forward.[10]. The AJC had most of their money with Madoff, and lost it; he'd been to at least one meeting of their investment committee, and Martin and Lillian Steinberg,, friends of his, were on the AJC investment committee. But Madoff himself wasn't an AJC official. --John Nagle (talk) 17:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
• Requested 24/48 hours of semi-protection on the article; some anon keeps adding a link to a Bernard Madoff punching bag ad. Really. --John Nagle (talk) 17:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

In addition to your list, something has to be done about the lead paragraph, which is too crammed. --JohnnyB256 (talk) 14:32, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I took a shot at trimming the lede. It certainly needed it. A lot of the removed material probably belongs elsewhere in the article. Some folks will want to add some back. I have no illusions that it will stand as now written. But let's try to get serious about making a good lede in time for the sentencing. In fact, let's try to put the whole article into shape by June 29. Maybe 50,000 people will read it within a few days of sentencing, let's not be ashamed of what it says. All the best. Smallbones (talk) 16:05, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

It's good now, thanks to your trims. Let's try to keep it that way.--JohnnyB256 (talk) 16:41, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Convicted felon

I think the article should not call him a convicted felon. The article later says he deposited the money in the bank rather than invest it during an economic downturn. The bank supposedly buys and sells securities. This article says he did pretend his company was personally buying and selling the securities. Therefore, calling him a convicted felon seems to ignore his trying to protect his investors money during a recession.--Chuck Marean 00:41, 30 June 2009 (UTC)