Talk:Canberra

IPA pronunciation

As a native Australian and linguist, the IPA pronunciation should be changed to /ˈkænbrʌ/, or /ˈkænbrɐ/, depending on preference. It is unmistakeably a two-syllable pronunciation. No Australian ever pronounces it in the way displayed on the page. Thanks! Sl0wr0lla (talk) 10:51, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Alternatively, /ˈkænbra/ (I'm not sure on low mid vowel preferences on Wikipedia). Sl0wr0lla (talk) 10:54, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

The slashes (/.../) in IPA denote standard phonemes. What you suggest are dialectal variants, and those are properly held between square brackets ([...]). If you believe that those pronunciations are accurate, by all means put them after the "standard" pronunciation — between square brackets. This all arises from a distinction between phonology and phonetics, one that only language nerds like me ever seem to make (I have a degree in this stuff). Also, other users might demand a reference...

Hiding somewhere in the archived Talks is a long discussion about how "Canberra" is supposed to be pronounced. I was the one who started it after noticing that somebody had put a peculiar pronunciation in the article with stress on the second syllable. Kelisi (talk) 19:51, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I find these IPA codes awful hard to navigate, and am only just now figuring that the pronounce option needs to be cooded, but then, I don't like this camberra ogg file, sounds like cairnbra (Cairns) not cans, but, the whooo, I like canbra, and I use the example, Canberra, not Milperra, but Milperra, not Canberra. Dave Rave (talk) 08:25, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

There seems little interest in addressing these problems. At the moment we have /ˈkænbərə/ : To most readers, this is another language, and of little value. May as well render it in Arabic. Sound file: Sounds like an American, as a Canberran I would redo it, but I have an unlovely droney voice :) KAN-bə-rə: And this one, it's hard to interpret this as anything but three syllables, which is definitely wrong. It's pronounced Canbra, and these entries should reflect that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Local Potentate (talk • contribs) 09:21, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

@Sl0wr0lla: I´m an Australian, and I pronounce it with three syllables. I don´t claim to be a local, though: I´m from Melbourne. SRamzy (talk) 10:48, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Including Aboriginal Country Name

In Aotearoa/New Zealand, the local iwi (or tribe) is listed for most, if not all towns and cities. For example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tauranga.

I think that we should include the Indigenous Country/Nation that Canberra resides in the info box on the right side. I'd like to get this started on all major Aus city pages.

Is there any objection to including this information in the infographic box for this page? It could be described in a variety of ways, eg. Local Indigenous nation, Indigenous Australian group, First Nation Country, and happy to take suggestions. Edit: Forgot to add the actual one I was thinking: Traditional Custodians

I would be linking: [[1]] , [[2]]

https://www.act.gov.au/ngunnawal-country https://www.nma.gov.au/learn/encounters-education/community-stories/canberra

Semi-protected edit request on 27 August 2022

Change the Population of Canberra from 453,559 to 467,000. Vecera 999 (talk) 23:38, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - FlightTime (open channel) 23:38, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Pronunciation

G'day, I'm curious as to the pronunciation of Canberra. It my sense, and personal pronunciation, that Can-BER-RA should be changed to Can-BRUH. However, I am just one person and not representative of Australia as a whole. Not to mention that I'm a Queenslander, the Blues would riot if they found out I was editing this page with a banana bender pronunciation. IronBattalion (talk) 01:38, 30 August 2022 (UTC).

You're stressing the word on the last syllable, which is wrong. It ought to be CAN-bruh, not can-BRUH. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:56, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Jack the Ozzie is correct. Mind you, if we want to say it very slowly the missing syllable shows itself: CAN-buh-ruh. But at normal speaking speed, two syllables. McKay (talk) 02:09, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Jack and McKay are correct. HiLo48 (talk) 02:20, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I was more showing the change in the two forms rather than syllable stress, but I do agree with you. Though as Mckay has pointed out, there are certain scenarios where the original is used. In the article should we showcase both or use the most common one for pronunciation. Personally I'm leaning towards the latter. IronBattalion (talk) 02:58, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree. I have been to Canberra many times and have only every heard can-bruh there and everywhere else in Australia, the current pronunciation is completely wrong. I will change it. Just your average wikipedian (talk) 03:44, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

The three syllable version shouldn't be there, but if it is removed, someone will just reinsert immediately, despite how many times it's been pointed out that it's a two syllable word. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Local Potentate (talk • contribs) 07:47, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Would anyone be totally opposed to a suggestion that some speakers use a pronunciation that somehow almost replaces the "n" with an "m", making it lean towards but not being exactly Cam-bruh? HiLo48 (talk) 09:47, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

User:Nardog has been repeatedly changing the pronunciation to one that is incorrect, want to assume good faith but that's getting increasingly difficult. You refuse to make any comments in the talk section explaining your reasoning and any depth. In the links you made in your edit, one says "Local pronunciations are of particular interest" yet you continually remove the local pronunciation. To reach a compromise I've added the incorrect pronunciation after the real one as a "rare" alternative. Like I said, I would like to assume good faith and that this is all a big misunderstanding, but if you continue to make this change whilst being complete silent in the talk section I really can't see any other explanation than you deliberately trying to mislead people from outside Australia. If you don't respond to this and once again alter the pronunciation I don't see any other solution than to report your vandalism. However I hope this can be solved without that happening. Just your average wikipedian (talk) 10:17, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't realize you had already made a section here. I appreciate you initiating it and I apologize for not participating in it sooner. I don't think the use of /ʌ/ and uh would be defensible in any way. I don't have access to the sixth edition of Macquarie right now, but the first edition has it "/ˈkænbərə, ˈkænbrə/" (as does Australian Oxford Dictionary) and I don't know of any dictionary that regards /ʌ/ as anything other than a checked vowel, i.e. always followed by a consonant. I highly doubt the first notation is supported by the source cited.

WP:DIAPHONEMIC is pretty clear on the use of /ər/. Help:IPA/English, which {{IPAc-en}} links the notation to, defines /ər/ as history, even though if you look it up on virtually any dictionary, the vowel there is either indicated to be optional (as in /ˈhɪst(ə)ri/) or not included at all (/ˈhɪstri/), meaning so long as the conventions of Help:IPA/English are used (as recommended by MOS:PRON), the situation in which a pronunciation with /r/ derived from /ər/ followed by a weak vowel exists is always represented as /ər/, because the elision of the vowel is predictable (as explained in note 32). There are hundreds of articles, such as Hyderabad, Edinburgh, David Attenborough, Apollo, Pittsburgh, Bat, Mercury (element), Niagara Falls, Genus, Ankara, currently using the sequence /ərə/. In ALL of these cases, without exception, an alternative pronunciation without /ə/ exists. So if we represented Canberra as "/ˈkænbrə/ or /ˈkænbərə/", it wouldn't make sense if we also didn't change all the hundreds of instances of /ərə/ to "/rə/ or /ərə/". And that's just /ərə/. Similar variations are expected in virtually any word, and that's where the whole idea behind Help:IPA/English lies, as WP:DIAPHONEMIC summarizes: "there is little point in transcribing Oxford as [ˈɒksfərd], [ˈɒksfəd], [ˈɑːksfərd], [ˈɑːksfəd], [ˈɔːksfərd], or [ˈɔːksfəd], depending on accent, and this would add a considerable amount of clutter to the article."

/ˈkænbərə/ is also the stable version from May 2018. Nardog (talk) 01:55, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

But it's not how it's pronounced by most Australians today. HiLo48 (talk) 06:02, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Again, "/ˈkænbərə/" already means "/ˈkænbərə/ or /ˈkænbrə/". A WP:DIAPHONEMIC notation does not represent one definitive "this is how it's pronounced", but a range of many. Nardog (talk) 06:36, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

But why include a form that is three syllables? HiLo48 (talk) 22:33, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Why not? Does Macquarie include only the disyllabic one? Nardog (talk) 12:04, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

McKay said on this page in 2016:

The locals say "/ˈkænbrə/" when talking at a normal speed and "/ˈkænbərə/" if they are talking really slowly ... my printed 1985 edition of the Macquarie Dictionary and the current edition online at the National Library both agree with me

So I assume not. Nardog (talk) 12:50, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Because 1985 was 37 years ago and languages change, and several Australians said the opposite at the beginning of this thread. HiLo48 (talk) 21:01, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

The quote says my printed 1985 edition of the Macquarie Dictionary and the current edition online at the National Library both agree with me. Both Longman Pronunciation Dictionary and Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary give /ˈkænbərə/ with an optional schwa before the rhotic (indicated with italics in LPD and as a superscript schwa in CEPD). Per MOS:DIAPHONEMIC, this is to be transcribed /ər/. And /ʌ/ is out of question for the final vowel since that indicates a checked vowel (i.e. a vowel that absolutely requires a following consonant due to the fact that it stems from /ʊ/ (see foot-strut split) which is restricted in the exact same way). In Australia and New Zealand, final /ə/ is often closer in quality to /ʌ/, but we don't follow that practice - and neither does any Australian scholar I'm aware of. Cox & Fletcher (2017:163) explicitly recommend transcribing this vowel with ⟨ə⟩ regardless of its quality and that is the transcription you'll find in every dictionary, Australian or otherwise.

This is not the first time that Australian editors expect a special treatment for IPA transcriptions of Australian placenames (Melbourne immediately comes to mind in this case). As long as the IPAc-en template is used (and there's no reason not to use it in this context), MOS:DIAPHONEMIC applies and the transcription must match Help:IPA/English. Same with the Respell template: if you use it, the transcription must match WP:RESPELL.

If you dislike the use of ⟨ərə⟩ in this context and would like to change it to something else (LPD-style ⟨ərə⟩ or CEPD-style ⟨ᵊrə⟩, or maybe ⟨(ə)rə⟩), you're welcome to raise the issue at Help talk:IPA/English. Sol505000 (talk) 22:25, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

I can assure you Australian editors will continue to request that Wikipedia articles reflect reality. HiLo48 (talk) 01:51, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Then the WP:BURDEN is on them to provide the reliable sources that demonstrate such reality. Nardog (talk) 02:53, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

You are, of course, correct in seeking sources, but I believe there is a burden on all of us to make Wikipedia a great encyclopaedia. Implying that good faith comments from experienced and well-meaning editors are wrong does not achieve that. HiLo48 (talk) 23:59, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

And we do that by making every disputed or disputable claim verifiable with reliable sources and not putting our original research in. I can't believe I'm faced with a "But it's true!" argument in 2022 from an editor of your tenure. Being in good faith or experienced does not give you an excuse to disregard our core content policies. Nardog (talk) 02:13, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

If you reread the first sentence of my previous post, you will see that your allegation is completely false. YOUR good faith here is seriously in question. HiLo48 (talk) 02:17, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

but in that sentence implies you disagree with my assertion on the basis of WP:V that in order to remove the trisyllabic variant from the article, one must demonstrate its disappearance citing a reliable source. Are you saying you don't? Nardog (talk) 04:32, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

I have no idea what that post means. What I am saying is what I wrote. HiLo48 (talk) 10:44, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm asking if you still object to keeping the trisyllabic pronunciation in the article. Nardog (talk) 13:36, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

It could be mentioned, but only as a very unusual pronunciation, not one that is in any way common. HiLo48 (talk) 22:02, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

And what is your source for its being uncommon? Nardog (talk) 04:17, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Reality. HiLo48 (talk) 06:44, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Then you can look for a better source (see WP:V) and kindly stop wasting our time. I've reverted to the stable version that doesn't violate MOS:DIAPHONEMIC. Sol505000 (talk) 09:05, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

What's the point of having sourced content that's wrong? Serious question. HiLo48 (talk) 09:20, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

MOS:DIAPHONEMIC says that the aim of Help:IPA/English and transcriptions linking to it (those that use the IPAc-en template) is to accomodate multiple varieties of English at once, the transcription is clearly correct. Canberra is a varisyllabic word that may as well consistently have two syllables in Australia (per e.g. [3], which isn't a valid source for WP) - not so in Britain and the US, where it usually has three (per LPD and CEPD). Sol505000 (talk) 09:53, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

You've been here for 14 years and made 79K edits. You know full well that's not how things work on Wikipedia. Serious question is a clear indication of WP:SEALION. I think we're done here. Nardog (talk) 10:53, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Not at all. It seems we might actually be finally getting somewhere, with your acknowledgement that the Australians editors at the head of this section are correct about how the name is pronounced in Australia, with that perhaps being different from the way it is pronounced in some other places. Surely it's important that the article describes those two DIFFERENT pronunciations AND where they are used. HiLo48 (talk) 21:16, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Well this getting depressing — Before I start, the initial transcription of 'bruh' was not based on any policy but on how it sounded to me at the time, and in any case shouldn't we use the local English variety for the IPA in relevant place names? After all, is it not the locals who know the pronunciation and its spelling idiosyncrasies? Because if that's the case I think it is appropriate that I pronounce Arkansas as Ar-kan-sas, that's how it is spelt right? (Sarcasm aplenty here). Moving on, to head off this meaningless discussion, if you want I can record my voice and supply it to Wikipedia. Do note that I might change my /n/ to an /m/ (Thanks to HiLo for the realisation), and that I naturally substitute the voiced labiodental approximant for the voiced alveolar approximant (I have a different r). And as a general rule of thumb we shorten everything and drop a lot of intervening vowels, Moreover we are non-rhotic to our cores. Its like Melbourne; its not pronounced Mel-Borne, its Mel-Bin... plebs. IronBattalion (talk) 14:35, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Or Mel-bn. HiLo48 (talk) 21:34, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2023

Douxant (talk) 00:32, 27 February 2023 (UTC)