Talk:List of Christmas carols

Frosty The Snowman?

Just noticed you have rudolph and santa claus is coming to town.. Maybe consider adding frosty as well? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.118.187.188 (talk) 04:18, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

 Not done -- Today, none of these three are on the list. Consider some other WP pages listed below. -- AstroU (talk) 20:58, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Can I bring up the question on carols vs. Christmas songs again? In today's version of the article, there are some secular Christmas songs in the American section: Rudolph, Silver Bells, Christmas Song (Chestnuts) and Jingle Bells. I know that the opening paragraph mentions secular Christmas songs, but not all of them are included. To be consistent, should we remove the popular Christmas songs? Yip1982 (talk) 00:26, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

No need. If you want to split and create a list of Christmas songs, you would need to find reliable sources that list one song as a carol and not just a "song". In many cases, that line of demarcation is arbitrary. Without reliable sources, you're just applying WP:OR to the removal of some songs and not others. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:37, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Popular Christmas songs should most definitely be removed, which has been the clear consensus of the majority of editors of this article as evidenced by the other comments in this talk page.37.18.134.184 (talk) 14:04, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

See Here for one such reference that demarcates the difference between a Christmas Carol from a Popular Christmas Song.

References

37.18.134.184 (talk) 14:10, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Old discussion

Can someone with the appropriate permissions please change the spelling of the word 'epithany' in the 'Carol of the Bells' entry to the correct spelling 'epiphany'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hjarrot2 (talk • contribs) 23:13, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Neither word is there now. -- AstroU (talk) 21:01, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

---

The differences between Christmas songs and Christmas carols needs to be clearly defined somewhere (see Talk:Christmas carol). -R. fiend 03:52, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Is it relevant in Anglo-saxon world to make a difference between the canticles and the other songs ? In French wikipedia, the list shows three categories : the hymns, the songs with christian reference (often traditional or folk songs) and the non-religious songs. Gwalarn 19:14, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC) (a non-Anglo-Saxon contributor!)

What about Ave maria and Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring? Kingturtle 02:58, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Neither of those is specifically tied to Christmas.Rockhopper10r 05:25, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

But I only hear them at christmas time, and they are often included in christmas celebrations. Kingturtle 18:59, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

"Ave Maria" (mostly the Schubert or Bach/Gounod versions) is heard throughout the year in Roman Catholic and, sometimes, Anglican circles on Marian feasts, as well as weddings and funerals, as well as as a concert piece. Bach's "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" is often performed during Advent, but it is used as a hymn or anthem throughout the year. Neither piece makes any specific reference to Christmas. Rockhopper10r 21:39, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I would say carols and songs are different, with some overlap, and should be treated as that....though they can be put into the same article 74.108.10.78 22:32, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The Cat and The Mouse Carol?

I know I have heard a Chirstmas song or carol involving a cat and a mouse. It has stuck with me ever since I heard it that one time on the radio. Recently I've been thinking about it and doing a little web searching. It seems there is a carol called "The Cat and The Mouse Carol", but I have not been able to confirm if it is the same one that I remember or anything else about it.

If anyone knows anything about this carol, it should probably be added to the list. Lilwik 03:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean the one that goes "Said the cat to the mouse/In their dark little house/In a stable so long ago/"I am wondering why/That bright star in the sky/Is shining upon us down below"" or something like that? I have it in a book, but probably not with enough extra facts. Just the lyrics and tune, which don't really belong here. Skittle 13:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

That might be the carol which I have found referenced on the web as "The Cat and The Mouse Carol," but it is not the Christmas song that I remember. In that case there are two such songs and they both should be discovered somehow. Even though it was years ago when I heard the song, I know that it was rather slow and could not possibly have had the short lines and snappy rhymes that you quote.Lilwik 05:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

So we have established that :-) What else do you remember about your song? Any words/phrases? Sort of music? Skittle 23:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe it was a rather somber song. I can't remember any lyrics, unfortunately, but I have a feeling that it was in the same theme as The Little Match Girl, but it was a cat and a mouse in the cold, setting aside their classic differences on Christmas. Lilwik 08:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Might it be the one described here? I'll post what it says on your talk page, since I'm accessing it from Google's cache and it might not be there much longer, but it seems too long to post here. Skittle 17:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure exactly what that link is referring to, but I finally managed to find the song on my own. This is the song I vaguely remembered: The Cat Carol. I guess The Cat and The Mouse Carol is something else. I will leave it to others to judge of it really qualifies as a Christmas carol, because despite its title is could be merely a Christmas song. It has a copyright that is barely 10 years old, 1993. Lilwik 00:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

That's the one I found at that link. I also posted the relevant bit onto your user page, which I meant to put on your talk page. 17:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The song is in reference to a carol written by British Singer and songwriter Ted Hutchinson . It was recently performed by David Archuleta and The Mormon Tabernacle Choir and was released on the Christmas CD following the concert ( Glad Christmas Tidings 2011). This is the Mormon Tabernacle Choir link to the song: The Carol is about a Cat and a Mouse in the Manger when Christ was born. The David Archuleta version is the only one I have been able to find. Nehimomma (talk) 07:10, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

References

Lyrics

Lyrics in the public domain must be moved to Wikisource s:Category:Christmas_carols --Altermike 15:47, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm quite surprised... "Little Christmas Tree" (Nat King Cole) is not in the Non-Religious Christmas Songs list... 124.106.148.10 15:27, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Performed by...

Do we really need the unending list of artists who performed these carols? I am considering removing the performed by sections. Kingturtle (talk) 16:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

 Done -- Not there now, AstroU (talk) 21:19, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

However, the second table column lists "Composer/Lyricist". -- AstroU (talk) 21:24, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Religious vs. Non-Religious

Some of the carols listed as religious are actually non-religious. For example, Twelve Days of Christmas and Deck the Halls may be very traditional, but aren't religious. I suggest moving them to the non-religious category, or creating a new category for them.

I don't know about Deck the Halls, but I do know that Twelve Days of Christmas is very religious as each day corresponds to a different religious element. [1] [2] --74.137.225.227 (talk) 19:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Snopes.com [3] has a very good article about the alleged hidden meanings of the lyrics of "The Twelve Days of Christmas". It is not a religious song. Rockhopper10r (talk) 05:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

"I checked Snopes, my research is done." A Snopes "researcher's" gleanings from blogs he read after an exhaustive Google search isn't my idea of a reliable source. Philip72 (talk) 05:04, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Who on earth wrote "Deck the Halls (a pagan Yuletide drinking song)" in the article? What utter nonsense. Deck the Halls English lyrics were written by the Scottish musician Thomas Oliphant in 1862, and in Welsh by John Jones the same year. The melody is older, first found in a musical manuscript by Welsh harpist John Parry dating back to the 1700s. So I'm deleting that nonsense, and if someone puts it back they better have a reliable cite that contradicts everything else . Philip72 (talk) 05:04, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

References

Split proposal

This article is about Christmas carols, not about Non-Religious Christmas Songs. The latter should be put into List of non-religious Christmas songs. Kingturtle (talk) 03:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Non-Christmas Christmas songs

Several of the songs here, though often performed at concerts around Christmas time, are not "Christmas" songs but for that association. "Jingle Bells" and "Let It Snow! Let It Snow! Let It Snow!" come immediately to my mind, but I'm sure there are others. Unless there is some discussion to the contrary and sound reasoning, I'm going to yank them. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:35, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

These songs should be moved to another article. How about List of non-Christmas winter songs or something like that? Kingturtle (talk) 15:59, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

As the article is named List of Christmas carols, the inclusion of any songs at all, religious or secular, which are not actually Christmas carols per se should be removed to another [new] article, for instance List of Christmas songs, which should have a section Chrismas Carols which links to List of Christmas carols. Clearly such compositions as Jingle-bells, together with the ubiquitous We wish you a Merry Christmas (although often sung by visiting 'carol-singers' (albeit only a quick round of the chorus followed by a hand outstretched in expectation of a donation for the half-hearted effort before moving on to the next house to repeat the process, and so on) are not, strictly speaking, carols. And We Three Kings is an Epiphany carol, and should also be excluded, as should Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanuel which is an Advent hymn. --JohnArmagh (talk) 20:06, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, I have no problem removing non-Christmas songs, but they should be placed in another article. The non Christmas seasonal songs have a great deal of value to our culture. Kingturtle (talk) 16:24, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Go ahead and create it. They do not belong here. - SummerPhD (talk) 17:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I already supported your claim that they don't belong here. :) I am trying to come up with a title for the non-Christmas song article, and I am asking for a little help brainstorming. List of non-Christmas winter songs? List of non-Christmas Christmas songs? Kingturtle (talk) 17:10, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I think the bigger problems will be a) defining the topic in an encyclopedic manner and b) finding sources that explicitly state that, say, "Let it snow,..." is not a Christmas song but is often played at Christmas time (not winter, Chistmas time) and c) weeding out the provincialism (I doubt "Sleigh Ride", "Frosty..." and such get much play in Australia's Spring (early December). As such, I think brainstorming for a title is premature. The title should be based on the content in this case, so we need to solidify the content first. I'd suggest starting a User Page/Sandbox to build this in, THEN work on the title. - SummerPhD (talk) 17:25, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, what source are you using that states "Let it snow,..." is not a Christmas song? Kingturtle (talk) 00:39, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

You have that backwards. I am disputing that it is a Christmas song. If you wish to re-add it to the article, feel free to -- provided you can cite a reliable source stating that it is a Christmas carol. If I were adding it to an article titled "Songs that are not Christmas songs", I would need a source. - SummerPhD (talk) 13:29, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

But there aren't any sources on List of Christmas carols stating that any of the songs listed are Christmas carols. Kingturtle (talk) 14:56, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Thus you may feel free to remove any you wish to dispute. - SummerPhD (talk) 19:50, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

List of secular songs associated with Christmas --JohnArmagh (talk) 16:13, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I like it. Kingturtle (talk) 16:41, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Good luck finding sources! Sounds like a nice project for me to stay out of... - SummerPhD (talk) 19:50, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

You know, I don't like the WP:OR jab when none of the entries that you have on List of Christmas carols have any citations from third parties saying they are indeed Christmas carols. Good luck finding sources :) Kingturtle (talk) 19:57, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Three quick point:

1) I don't have any entries on this article or anywhere else. In fact, on this article all I've done is remove entries.

2) There is, IMO, some justification for calling a song that includes the word "Christmas" and/or lyrics about the events believed to have occurred a "Christmas song". Saying "Sleigh Ride" is a Christmas song, though, seems to amount to something along the lines of "Gee, it's mostly played in December...".

3) Please don't interpret my comments as "jabs" at you. I have no problem with you (that I am aware of...). I do, however, think you're heading down a deadend alley. - SummerPhD (talk) 20:24, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

And, again, feel free to remove any songs you wish to dispute. - SummerPhD (talk) 20:26, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, it felt like a jab. But thank you for your explanation. I understand.

Now about this article, I think List of non-religious Christmas songs and List of secular songs associated with Christmas should be their own articles. Non-religious Christmas songs aren't carols and shouldn't be on this article. I am not so worried about finding sources.

Also, I think it is ok to say who first recorded it, but I think the "Also recorded by" part needs to be removed or chopped generously. Kingturtle (talk) 20:37, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Restructuring

Since the removal of the non-carols and Non-Christmas Christmas songs (should I create a redirect? ;) ), I've started a restructure. With all of the various Language X sections, the original portion seemed to be kind of hanging. So, I've started sorting them by language.

A number of the English songs (such as "Bring a Torch...") were listed in that section, but as "Language X traditional". Clearly, "Bring a Torch..." is an English translation, using the same/similar music as the original. I've made some of the changes to that effect.

Bolding the songs was unique to the English section. IMO, it also made it hard to read. I've removed the bolding.

There are still a number of questionable inclusions. For example, does Trans Siberian Orchestra's "Christmas Canon" have lyrics? If so, are they religious? If not (no lyrics or secular lyrics), is this a carol?

Comments are welcome. - SummerPhD (talk) 14:13, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Nice work. I've made a few format changes too. Kingturtle (talk) 17:35, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Clearly, there's a lot more to do. I'll peck at it every now and again. - SummerPhD (talk) 18:10, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

New format idea

Turning it into a chart would make the list more streamlined and easier to read. How about this format?

Carol	Composer	Lyricist	Year published	Notes
"Angels from the Realms of Glory"		James Montgomery	1816
"Angels We Have Heard on High"	traditional hymn "Gloria"	English translation by James Chadwick	1862	based on French traditional carol "Les Anges dans nos Campagnes"

Ideas? Comments? Kingturtle (talk) 18:57, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I like the idea of plapping it all in a chart, but I have some reservations. There's a whole lot of info that will end up jammed in the "Notes" section: original title in another language, translator, notable recordings, etc. The Composer/Lyricist dicotomy leaves solo compositions as either listing one name in both or, again, jamming it into the "Notes" section. Part of the problem, IMO, is that the legacy of this article is such that whomever wandered along added whatever they felt like in whatever format they happened to use. We have nothing established to determine what songs to include and what info to include about them. If Michael W. Smith puts out an album's worth of new Christmas songs, do we inevitably add them? Why or why not?

Notability criteria do not specifically apply to individual entries on a list like this, so we get to set our own. Basically, I would propose keeping the info in this article to a minimum: Title (with original title in another language, if applicable); Written by; Date and maybe notable recording. What of the other information? Well, that would wrap in with my other suggestion (and this is pretty major...) let's limit the article specifically to songs with Wikipedia articles. That would knock the list down to about 90 or so (based on current links, some links are probably missing, but some songs don't belong). The rest? Well, we don't have any evidence that they exist, are Christmas carols and are notable in any way. Some schmoe at Podunk First Presbyterian writes a song one year, is that worth including? - SummerPhD (talk) 19:52, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, the Composer/Lyricist part could just be one column. And the notes don't have to be extensive. This article is just a list and more information can be put on the actual article of the carol. Kingturtle (talk) 23:58, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

How about like this? Kingturtle (talk) 20:54, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Carol	Composer /Lyricist	Year published	Notes
"Angels from the Realms of Glory"	Lyrics by James Montgomery	1816
"Angels We Have Heard on High"	traditional hymn "Gloria"; English translation by James Chadwick	1862	based on French traditional carol "Les Anges dans nos Campagnes"

Works for me! I'm going to put up an "inuse" tag for a minute right now and see how many additional songs have articles that aren't currently linked. Any thoughts on an inclusion standard for this article? - SummerPhD (talk) 17:35, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Wow, a sea of red. I also made some formatting corrections and fixed some clumsy English. Now let's see what we have. - SummerPhD (talk) 18:14, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Looking good. When you're done, I'll create some more charts. Kingturtle (talk) 18:34, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

OK, so much for that. A lot of work for not much gain... We went from 86 linked songs to 98 linked songs. Any way, any thoughts on chopping this bad boy down to size? - SummerPhD (talk) 19:06, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Someone recently posted that this formatting "looked ridiculous" and was entirely anglo-centric. I just placed some French titles on there, and I have to agree that I think there may be a better solution. What if we made a sortable table (as suggested by above mentioned poster) with (1) English title (or translated into English - this is the English wikipedia obviously) (2) original language title (when applicable), then the remaining columns of composer, date, and notes? Then ppl could sort it as they saw fit (by title, origin, date, etc.) and we'd have one substantial table. Thoughts? Portia1780 (talk) 23:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

 Done So now the entire article in not Anglo-centric, since the article is broken down by country/language. Works great for me. -- AstroU (talk) 19:25, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Notability criteria

As there has been no discussion on this issue, I'm boldly assuming that my proposal is acceptable. Barring further discussion, songs are not notable enough for inclusion in this article unless they have individual articles. - SummerPhD (talk) 19:56, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Notability on lists such as this is always difficult to gauge. I don't think every notable carol deserves its own article, especially non-English language carols, but I do think some of those less notable carols deserve a place on this list of Christmas carols. Maybe the notability criteria should be based on something else, such as it has been performed live or on a recording by a notable chorus or chamber choir. Kingturtle (talk) 22:30, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, it's tough to guage. In general, the problems seem to come when the criteria are vague.

For openers, I think we can agree that any carol with an article is notable enough for this list.

From your suggestions, my qualms would be 1) defining a notable choir (unless we fall back on choirs with articles) and 2) the possibility of a choir performing as a one-off an otherwise non-notable carol or recording an entire album of carols that includes some otherwise ignored ones. While I don't have a specific example in mind, I'm thinking along the lines of a Michael W. Smith album. Every now and again, a notable choir will record and or perform with a pop artist. Suppose Smith records an album of all-new Christmas songs. Given who he is, they're likely to be religious. If an otherwise notable choir joins in on the album or for a show or two, does that make even the most forgettable, non-notable song on that album a "notable Christmas carol" to be included with "Silent Night" and "Adeste Fideles"? Seems a rather low bar, to me. The WP:GNC seem broad enough to cover what I would expect here, especially if we follow the wiggle room provided by WP:MUSIC#SONGS: "Songs that have been ranked on national or significant music charts, that have won significant awards or honors or that have been performed independently by several notable artists, bands or groups are probably notable." Modify that to limit it to carols and I think we have a winner, noting, of course, that we don't need sufficient material about the song to actually write a full article about it. Thoughts? - SummerPhD (talk) 16:46, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually, another point. What makes a song a carol? Is every religious Christmas song a carol? Does Christmas Day (Michael W. Smith song) make the grade? - SummerPhD (talk) 16:50, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

A carol has Jesus' birth as part of the subject matter, no? Kingturtle (talk) 19:54, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm betting I can find a song from South Park that fits that definition... I think we need something a bit more concrete. - SummerPhD (talk) 21:33, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

This is a list of Christmas Carols; not a list of notable Christmas Carols. All Carols should be included. We should take a loose definition of carol as being any song that glorifies Jesus Christ's birth. Any song that glorifies Jesus Christ's birth should be counted as worthy of inclusion in this list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.21.191 (talk) 00:27, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Nope. Imagine the article List of people from New York City... Please see Wikipedia:List#List_content. - SummerPhD (talk) 14:42, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Extra carols to add to the list

• Adeste Fidelis
• Angel Gabriel, The
• As With Gladness, Men of Old
• Break Forth, O Beauteous Heavenly Light
• Brightest and Best of the Sons of the Morning
• Come, Thou Long-Expected Jesus
• Coventry Carol
• First Noel, The
• Gloucestershire Wassail
• How Brightly Shines the Morning Star
• I Saw Three Ships Come Sailing In
• It Came Upon the Midnight Clear
• Joseph Dearest, Joseph Mine
• My Dancing Day
• O Come All Ye Faithful (English)
• O Come, O Come Emmanuel
• O Little Town of Bethlehem
• On This Day Earth Shall Ring
• Prepare the Way, O Zion
• Quem Pastores
• Rudolf The Red Nosed Raindeer —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hahajoanne1 (talk • contribs) 03:03, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
• Sleepers, Wake!
• Song of the Crib
• Sussex Carol
• Tomorrow Shall Be My Dancing Day
• Truth From Above, The
• Watchman, Tell Us of the Night
• We Three Kings of Orient
• We Wish You a Merry Christmas
• Winter's Snow

The music is here: [4]http://www.christmas-carol-music.org/Index_of_Titles.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.21.191 (talk) 00:22, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Here's the problem:Adeste Fidelis, The Angel Gabriel, As With Gladness, Men of Old, Break Forth, O Beauteous Heavenly Light, Brightest and Best of the Sons of the Morning, Come, Thou Long-Expected Jesus, Coventry Carol, The First Noel, Gloucestershire Wassail, How Brightly Shines the Morning Star, I Saw Three Ships Come Sailing In, It Came Upon the Midnight Clear, Joseph Dearest, Joseph Mine, My Dancing Day, O Come All Ye Faithful, O Come, O Come Emmanuel, O Little Town of Bethlehem, On This Day Earth Shall Ring, Prepare the Way, O Zion, Quem Pastores, Sleepers, Wake!, Song of the Crib, Sussex Carol, Tomorrow Shall Be My Dancing Day, The Truth From Above, Watchman, Tell Us of the Night, We Three Kings of Orient, We Wish You a Merry Christmas, Winter's Snow.

The redlinks have no evendence of notability. The blue links are all already there, except for Sleepers, Wake!, which is actually a link to an unrelated book. This leads us back to the question above. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:40, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I_Saw_3_Ships has been recorded by some notable people.

I have to say the current structure looks ridiculous as the only substantial list is the "English" carols one, even though many of them are actually translations from other languages where they are not listed (because they already appear on the "English" list?). If you split per language, you'd expect it to be by language of origin, otherwise it results in this current misleading Anglo-centric selection bias. One possible solution is to allow duplicate entries (i.e., include the translated English carols to their language of origin list). Another would be to reformat as a single table with sortable fields including the language of origin.--70.80.234.196 (talk) 04:05, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Surely, you're joking, SummerPhD. Just because something is present in or missing from Wikipedia has no bearing on its notability or lack thereof. Having something show up with a red link is merely evidence that you were too lazy to search diligently, that you were raised in a culturally deprived environment, or that the songs may be known by a variety of titles. I took the liberty of adding the word "Are" to "We Three Kings of Orient", and, presto, a match appeared. How many more are there like that? —Quicksilver^{T @} 21:57, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

---

One of my favorite Christmas carol numbers is: “This Little Babe” (Benjamin Britten (A Ceremony of Carols)) Date=February 20, 2012 (1:36min) Maîtrise de Radio France. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_Tux6tixN0

AstroU (talk) 03:57, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

---

Our Relief Society put together 24 carol/story/scripture (sets) to be used like an Advent calendar: (Half are Primary songs, such as 1. “Nativity Song” and 2. “Once Within a Lowly Stable”) 3. O Little Town of Bethlehem; 5. It Came Upon The Midnight Clear; 7. O Come All Ye Faithful; 9. Joy to the World; 11. O Holy Night; 13. Away in a Manger; 14. The First Noel; 15. Angels We Have Heard On High; 17. Hark! The Herald Angels Sing; 21. With Wondering Awe; 23. What Child Is This? ... And for Christmas Eve, 24. “Silent Night”.

They are all on the list herein, except “With Wondering Awe” with text and music, Anon.

-- AstroU (talk) 20:13, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Added: "With Wondering Awe", the Wisemen saw... AstroU (talk) 21:31, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

---

Marys boy child

Mary's Boy Child and Mary's Little Boy Child both linked to the same article which was titled Mary's Boy Child, so I removed the line for Mary's Little Boy Child and added it in brackets in the line below. Cheers, JenLouise (talk) 09:05, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Also, the note about editing protection is from the end of 2008 and says it is only for 2 weeks - is it time to remove it? JenLouise (talk) 09:05, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Order of list

It seems unclear what the rationale is for organising the list and it needs to be stated in the intro. It looks at first that listing is according to original language of the words, but doesn't seem to follow that clearly. Many foreign language carols seem to be listed under English. Can we make it clearer?--Mervyn (talk) 13:15, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

 Done -- Now, broken down by language. -- AstroU (talk) 21:05, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

@AstroU: Not to start another discussion, but since it is listed by language, why is American listed? It's not an language. American English is another form of English, but not American. Not sure why it's listed if it's listed by language. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 03:40, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Songs For Inclusion

I noticed song songs like "Where Are You, Christmas?" by Faith Hill of the "How the Grinch Stole Christmas" soundtrack, "Wonderful Christmas Time" by Paul McCartney and Wings, "Thank God It's Christmas" by Queen, and others are not the list. Would they be on another list. If so, where is that list? Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 19:09, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

For those that fit the criteria, there's List of Christmas hit singles. Also consider Category:Christmas songs. - SummerPhD (talk) 19:40, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 01:46, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Question about "Winter Wonderland"

Is "Winter Wonderland" really a Christmas carol? The article on Winter Wonderland describes the song as a "Christmas time pop classic" rather than a carol, and I do wonder whether it should be in this list. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 23:11, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

It'd be pretty damned hard to argue that this is a Christmas carol. The song is neither about Christmas nor a carol. I'm removing it. - SummerPhD (talk) 00:32, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Christmas Lights removed

I removed Christmas Lights by Coldplay, because there's really no sense in which that's a Christmas carol rather than just a Christmas pop song. It belongs elsewhere. 86.183.77.237 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:14, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Auld Lang Syne

I have deleted the note stating that "Auld Lang Syne" "famously" appears at the end of It's A Wonderful Life. The idea that this is significant, let alone the most (or even a) notable feature of such a universally renowned song is misguided and parochial, betraying the writer's ignorance more than his knowledge.77.100.218.86 (talk) 13:08, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

True enough. More to the point, IMO, it isn't a Christmas carol. I've removed it. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:17, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

No article about the Rocking Carol?

This is a much desired suggestion by someone who's not as Wikipedia savvy as I'd like to be. I wasn't sure where exactly to offer this suggestion but this seemed like the most logical place I could find. Basically, if you go to the "English" section of songs on the article, then scroll down to "Rocking Carol", you will find there is no Wikipedia article about this song, only a link to another website that talks about it. I searched and searched and searched, and there is absolutely nothing here on Wikipedia, not even a stub. This is a very famous, well known song, especially compared to some of the other lesser-known ones that have their own articles. The only place on Wikipedia I could even find mention of it is here, on this article, and again, all there is is a link to another site. Take a listen to refresh your memory about this song in case you're not familiar: "Rocking Carol" Somebody please make a stub or something about this beautiful, popular song. I'd do it myself if I felt like spending the energy on learning how to do it. Maybe I will. — Preceding unsigned comment added by YouarelovedSOmuch (talk • contribs) 19:33, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Inclusion

Well, all these years later, here we are again. Yes, we have songs that are not carols on the list. A carol is "a religious folk song or popular hymn".[5] "Deck the Halls" (even if marginally about Christmas...sort of) is in no sense religious or a hymn. "Auld Lang Syne" is neither a carol nor about Christmas (someone was editing while drink?).

Along with that, we have numerous songs that are not notable. While we tried to hash this out years ago, we now have Template:Uw-badlistentry, which reads "Hello. Your recent edit appears to have added the name of a non-notable entity to a list that normally includes only notable entries. In general, a person or organization added to a list should have a pre-existing article before being added to most lists. If you wish to create such an article, please first confirm that the subject qualifies for a separate, stand-alone article according to Wikipedia's notability guideline. Thank you."

Granted, there is not a policy that directly excludes non-notable entries. However, we need something clear here. If my niece writes a Christmas song mentioning "Jesus" we can certainly argue it's a Christmas carol. It does not, however, belong on this list. Furthermore, without substantial coverage in reliable sources, we really have no way to determine that the song is as carol (rather than another "Sleigh Ride", "Deck the Halls", etc.

Comments? - SummerPhD (talk) 16:19, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I think the inclusion criteria could be clearer, because it doesn't state that the carol has to be typically religious. Wikipedia's own definition of a Christmas carol is "song or hymn whose lyrics are on the theme of Christmas or the winter season in general, and which is traditionally sung in the period immediately surrounding the holiday." (Then Norwegian entyr Musevisa is not at all religious and should be removed by your definition). Iselilja (talk) 16:40, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Agree, it needs clearer intro about defining a carol - e.g inclusion in a notable anthology of carols. Also need to refine criteria about under which language a carol is listed. --Mervyn (talk) 10:54, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Happy New Year 2015 ... How does the inclusion criteria look now? I think the lede here is good (1) what is included, (2) what is not, (3) definition, and (4) link to Christmas_Carol to amplify the definition, as a subset of Christmas music. As it now stands, "A Christmas carol is a carol whose lyrics center on the theme of Christmas or that has become associated with the Christmas season even though its lyrics may not specifically refer to Christmas. Both types of Christmas carols are included in this list. Traditional Christmas carols are deeply religious, mainly focusing on the Christian celebration of the birth of Jesus. ..." and from the Christmas carol page, "A Christmas carol (also called a noël) is a carol (song or hymn) whose lyrics are on the theme of Christmas, and which is traditionally sung on Christmas itself or during the surrounding holiday season. Christmas carols may be regarded as a subset of the broader category of Christmas music." There is deep meaning in the carols, where wise men still seek him. -- AstroU (talk) 20:44, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Inclusion of some Irish and Catalan Carols

I have included five Irish traditional carols and one Catalan carol. When I originally added them, they were removed by ClueBot NG citing possible vandalism. I reported this false positive removal and added them again. Three of the Irish carols are in the English language and two are in the Irish language. The English language carols include:

"Christmas Day Is Come" (also known as "The Irish Carol") an 18th century Irish traditional carol written by Fr. William Devereaux and part of the "Kilmore Carols" You can listen to traditional hereor modern here

"Curoo Curoo ("The Carol of the Birds") is another 18th century carol. The composer is unknown. You can listen to traditional here or modern here

"The Darkest Midnight in December" an 18th century Irish traditional carol written by Fr. William Devereaux and part of the "Kilmore Carols" You can listen to traditional here or modern version here

The Irish language carols include:

"An Ciarrí Carúl Nollaig" ("The Kerry Christmas Carol") You can listen to here in English (don't know when it was translated)

"Oíche Nollag" (Christmas Eve") You can listen to traditional version here

The Catalan Carol includes:

"El cant dels ocells" (lit. "Song of the Birds") which was written by Pablo Casals. The song is also referenced as “Carol of the Birds” (Different from the Irish Traditional song Curoo Curoo (Carol of the Birds). You can listen to traditional version here or modern version here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8084:25C0:380:9591:E645:2B49:8C7B (talk) 20:29, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Interesting concept : Much work needed

I like the idea of this list, as the Christmas carol occupies a significant place in the development of western music, and I think a good start has been made. That said, the article needs a considerable amount of work.

• The first thing which jumps out is the sentence near the beginning, "The list is organised [sic] according to the original language of the carol."

Indeed? Yet in the "English" section I find Bring a Torch, Jeanette, Isabella, the original language of which was almost certainly French; Deck the Hall, originally in Welsh; Glory to God (Dutch); "Good King Wenceslas (probably Moravian or Slovakian); Huron Carol (oirginally in Huron); In Dulci Jubilo (Latin); O Christmas Tree (German); Silent Night (German); etc.

If the intent is really to organize the list by original language, all of these (and a few others) need to be moved from the "English" section to more appropriate places. There are similar problems in some of the other language charts.

Speaking from 16 years experience with maintaining a database of more than 2000 ethnic and popular Christmas songs, I would suggest that charting by language isn't, perhaps, the most useful way to organize this list. A better approach might be to list all songs alphabetically, by most popular title, then give the likely ethnic origin in the next column. (Ethnic origin tends to be easier to uncover than original language.)

I would suggest also that a column be added to provide alternate titles by which the tune is known in other countries, as many of these tunes are quite commonly known by two or three different names. This could be a single chart, or it could be separated into sections by letters of the alphabet.

• Secondly, if the list is intended to only include Christmas carols, "carol" has a very specific definition in music: "a song, characteristically of religious joy, associated with a given season, especially Christmas; in which uniform stanzas, or verses (V), alternate with a refrain, or burden (B), in the pattern B, V1, B, V2 . . . B."

A goodly number of entries in this list are not "carols" by the musical definition (e.g. Away in a Manger; Silent Night; O Tannenbaum; Angels From the Realms of Glory; In Dulci Jubilo, and many others).

These are, of course, very popular Christmas songs, and have been for a long time, so you may want to rethink calling this a list of carols, and instead call it a list of Christmas Songs.

Perhaps "List of Traditional Christmas Songs" -- I 'll leave it to others to quibble over the meaning of "traditional". :)

• Thirdly, if you limit the list to strictly Christmas songs, a lot of other items have to go. We Three Kings is an epiphany song; Good King Wenceslas celebrates St. Stephen's Day, not Christmas; Deck the Hall is a pagan (yuletide) drinking song; Kyrie Eleison has nothing to do with Christmas' it's the first movement of the Catholic Mass; O Come Emmanuel is an Advent chant... and so on.

Many of these tunes have nonetheless become so associated in the modern mind with the Christmas season that it would probably be counterproductive to remove them. Including them with an appropriate comment -- as has been partly done -- is, I think, a good idea.

This does, however, raise the question of whether certain other songs should be included. For example, as of right now, perhaps the most iconic "Christmas" song of all time is Jingle Bells -- which says nothing at all about Christmas, and was originally composed for Thanksgiving. Yet so iconic has this song become, that a musician, composer, playwright, or film-maker who wants to suggest "Christmas" in the minds of his/her audience -- in any context, and at any time of year -- has only to quote the first six notes of Jingle Bells to produce the desired effect in most listeners.

One possible argument for excluding tunes like Jingle Bells would be to specify that the list only include religiously themed songs -- but in that case Deck the Hall and the Ukranian Bell Carol would also have to go, for the sake of consistency.

And that, really, is the bottom line: consistency.

Right now the list seriously lacks consistency. It would be a better, more useful article, were it more consistent.

Oh, and BTW, just or the record, Guadete -- which is a Christmas carol by practically any definition -- wasn't "popularized by Steeleye Span in 1973". Re - popularized, perhaps, but it was popularized about 400 years before most of the members of Steeleye Span were born.  ;)

74.95.43.249 (talk) 21:04, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

I would add that "year published" should probably be changed to "year written" or "year composed". Prior to the 17th century most of these tunes can't be said to have been "published" at all. A lot of them were passed on aurally, and only published in the 19th century, hundreds of years after they were composed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 01:00, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

---

As a specific example of trouble, I note: "Away in a Manger" is attributed to Martin Luther in English, but no counterpart is attributed to him in Latin or German. Huh????? By way of contrast, "Angels We Have Heard on High" is cited as being a translation of a French carol, and "Oh Come All Ye Faithful" as a translation of "Adestes Fideles". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.184.230.119 (talk) 08:15, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

The comment regarding "Away In A Manger" is moot, seeing as how no scholar has ever been able to actually connect Luther to the song or lyrics. That his name is associated with the song at all is most likely due to a deliberate pious misattribution by Murray. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.176.249 (talk) 22:47, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

clean up on many sections

There needs to be a clean up on many of the sections. For example

• Translation

There is no translation on many of the regions carols, such as with the Spanish, Dutch, Danish, Romanian and many others. It is, after all, a English wiki article

• Categorising

Is the list being categorised by the language the carol was wrote and sung in or is the list categorised by the origin. I know it was previously categorised by the language of the song but now it seems to state it is categorised by the origin. Regardless who made the change, they didn't follow up and re-categorise carols that were from one region but sung in a different language. For example Irish traditional songs that were sung in English remained in the English section and were not moved to the Irish section with the traditional carols that were sung in Irish. There is also some French Carols there too.

• Listings of Popular Songs as Carols

Some songs have been added to sections that are clearly not carols but popular Songs, such as in the Spanish section, someone had added Feliz Navidad a song released by Puerto Rican singer and songwriter José Feliciano. They might as well added Last Christmas by Wham! in the English section.

• Duplication of Songs

Some carols have been duplicated across different sections, such as Silent Night. If the list is been categorised by origin, then surely Silent Night should be categorised in and only in German. I understand that there are other languages for this carol but it originates from Germany and therefore should be consistent with the method of how the list is formed. the same could be said for many others. Maybe in the notes section it can highlight those other languages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.1.202.203 (talk) 20:46, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

No translation is needed if the carol is not sufficiently well-known in English and no common translation exists.

Technically, "Silent Night" is Austrian and not German and the list is "organized according to the presumed original ethnicity of the carol", so feel free to remove a carol if it's not originally from a particular region. But recognize also, that this article uses either American or Oxford spelling. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:07, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm sure a common translation does exist. We live in the global internet age of free movement. Besides, how is the list ever going to be accurate if we cannot tell if someone has duplicated a popular Christmas carol but with the translation from their own language, nonetheless Wiki recommend such translations WP:COFAQ#TRANS. I also understand that this article is written in British (and not Oxford) or American English, but I also understand wiki strives to be inclusive in its policies of the variants of English WP:COFAQ#ENGLISH — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.1.202.203 (talk) 17:25, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Twelve Days of Christmas (also known as Twelvetide) and/or Christmastide

The second paragraph of the current article states:

Many traditional Christmas carols are deeply religious, mainly focusing on the Christian celebration of the birth of Jesus. Many songs, both religious and secular, now regarded as Christmas songs have become associated with the Christmas season even though the lyrics may not specifically refer to Christmas – for example, We Three Kings (an Epiphany song), Good King Wenceslas (a carol for St. Stephen's Day), Deck the Halls (a pagan Yuletide drinking song) and O Come, O Come, Emmanuel (an Advent chant). Other Christmas songs focus on more secular Christmas themes, such as winter scenes, family gatherings, and Santa Claus (Jingle Bells, O Christmas Tree, Home for the Holidays, Jolly Old St. Nicholas, etc.).

I think the confusion around Christmas Carols and the legitimacy of some of the Carols mentioned above might be circumvented if it is added that there are Twelve Days of Christmas (also known as Twelvetide) and similar to Christmastide and from the 25th December to the 5th/6th of January they are celebrated, hence the reason why many Christmas Carols can be related to St Stephen's Day (26th December), St John's Day (27th December), Feast of Holy Innocents (28th December), St Sylvester's Day (31st December), and right up to the Epiphany. I can put this in if no one has a problem with it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.1.202.203 (talk) 19:44, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Please use the correct date formatting. None has been defined, but the majority of references use the "dmy" format, so write 25 December, etc. Also, no slash for Epiphany: 25 December to 5 January (or 6 January depending on the tradition). Otherwise, this looks OK. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:16, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Ethnicity/Culture versus Language

I'd like to suggest an organization by ethnic or cultural origin/prevalence, rather than by language. There are several reasons for taking this approach:

• This is the way carols are usually categorized in songbooks. Eg., "Spanish", "Catalan", and "Mexican" carols would be categorized separately, rather than all being lumped together under "Spanish", as these are distinctly different cultural/ethnic groups. Likewise for "English", "American", "and "Canadian" carols.

• A vast number of Christmas carols/songs have been translated into multiple languages. Some translations have existed for so long that the original language of the song has been obscured. Eg., "The First Noel" is often assumed to be a French carol; in fact, it is English -- "The First Nowell"; or "O Come, O Come Emmanuel" which is listed under "English", but it's origin is Latin, and it's been translated into virtually every modern language.

• Categorizing by language can make it difficult to locate carols which may be associated with a particular region or people, but not necessarily with a specific language. For example, there are Israeli carols, but they did not originate in Hebrew or Arabic.

• Categorizing by ethnicity or culture gives more useful historical information that categorizing by language. For example, many Bohemian and Moravian carols are now rendered in the Czech language, but those are not their language of origin, and these are distinct cultural groups, or were when the music originated.

• There is a lack of consistency in the current organization. For example, "Irish" and "English" are listed separately, even though most of the Irish listings have been commonly rendered in English for a century or longer. On the other hand, there is no listing for "American", and American carols (eg., "Away In A Manger") are lumped under other categories. Yet there is a separate category for "Huron", which is a cultural category, even though the original language of that carol is French.

If trouble is going to be taken to include a separate category for the Huron carol, then there really has to be a separate category for "American" as well. Many of the carols currently lumped under "English" are distinctly American in origin, and often in sentiment:

Away In A Manger; Children, Go Where I Send Thee; A Christmas Carol; Go Tell It On The Mountain; Jingle Bells; The Little Drummer Boy; It Came Upon A Midnight Clear; I Heard The Bells On Christmas Day; I Wonder As I Wander; O Little Town of Bethlehem; Rise Up Shepherd and Foller; We Three Kings

There are other issues with the article, but the chief one I see is that of organizational consistency. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.176.249 (talk) 22:50, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

The issues, as I see them, are not as you claim, but with the origin of the songs. Since so many songs are borrowed by others, it would be best to have an alphabetical listing of songs with an English translation as needed, list a referenced origin of the song, then list whether the songs has been translated into another language or has alternate melodies in English (etc.). Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:03, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree with you that the issues with the article are not as User :70.89.176.249 claims (since he/she does seem to contradict his/her own argument but rather with as you write the origin of songs, translation, and referencing. With this in mind I have provided a collapsible table that you can view below as food for thought and which might satisfy all concerned. I think the best way forward may be a sortable table similar to that which is utilised in the List of fairy tales wiki article. The table may have sections such as Carol, Composer/Lyricist, Year Published, Origin/Region, Language, variant languages/Melodies, and Notes. Those who are interested in the origin of the carols by language can click the language button and the carols will be arranged by language in alphabetical order, those who are interested in the origin of the carol click the origin and the carols will be arranged by origin in alphabetical order, and the same with the other categories.

The example I present below includes Arabic, Catalan, Irish, and Italian (which I have alphabetised to the best I can at the moment). However there is still much work that would need to be done.

In regards to the translation into English of the carols in their native languages, it may require writing a message on the List of Christmas Carols talk pages of those wiki articles and asking people from those pages to translate the carols into English. In any way, have a look at the table and tell me what you think.

Click on this to see example of possible sortable table of Christmas Carols

Fairy tales and their origins Carol Composer/Lyricist Year Published Origin/Region Language Variant Languages/Melodies Notes "A Betlem me'n vull anar" (lit. "I want to go to Bethlehem") Traditional Catalan "A Virgin Queen in Bethlehem" words by Fr. William Devereaux 18th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "Anem a Betlem" (lit. "We're going to Bethlehem") Traditional Catalan "An Angel This Night" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "An Ciarrí Carúl Nollaig" ("The Kerry Christmas Carol") Traditional Irish Irish "Ara ve Nadal" (lit. "Christmas is coming") Traditional Catalan "Behold Three Kings Come From the East" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, (Short Carol) "Christmas Day Is Come" (also known as "The Irish Carol") words by Fr. William Devereaux, 18th Century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "Curoo Curoo" ("The Carol of the Birds") Traditional Irish English "Descanseu ben alegres" (lit. "Rest very happy") Traditional Catalan "Don Oíche úd I mBeithil" ("That Night In Bethlehem") Traditional Irish Irish "Dormi, dormi, bel Bambin" Italian "El cant dels ocells" (lit. "Song of the Birds") Traditional; Pablo Casals arranged the song for cello Lyrics are printed in 17th century Catalan also known as "Carol of Birds" "El desembre congelat" (lit. "Frozen December") Traditional Catalan "El dimoni escuat" (lit. "the devil with no tail") Traditional Catalan "El Noi de la Mare" (lit. "The Son of the Mother") Traditional 17th-18th century Catalan Also known as "Carol of the Gifts" "El rabadà" (lit. "The shepherd") Traditional Catalan "Fum, Fum, Fum" ("El vint-i-cinc de desembre") Traditional 16th century Catalan The word "fum" may imitate the sound of a drum (or perhaps the strumming of a guitar). "Fum" means "smoke"(noun) in Catalan. "Gesù bambino" ("The Infant Jesus") Pietro Yon 1917 Italian "When Blossoms Flowered" in English" "Hail Ye Flowers of Martyrs" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "Jerusalem, Our Happy Home" words by Fr. William Devereaux 18th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "La pastora Caterina" (lit. "Caterina, the shepherd") Traditional Catalan "Les dotze van tocant" (lit. "Ringing twelve o'clock") Traditional Catalan "Now To Conclude Our Christmas Mirth" words by Fr. William Devereaux 18th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "Oíche Nollag" ("Christmas Eve") Traditional Irish Irish "Pastorets de la muntanya" (lit. "Shepherds from the mountain") Traditional Catalan "Sant Josep i la Mare de Déu" (lit. "Saint Joseph and the Virgin Mary") Traditional Catalan "St John did Lean on Jesus' Breast" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, (Short Carol) "St Stephen Had an Angel's Face" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, (Short Carol) "Suantraí na Maighdine" ("The Virgin's Lullaby") Traditional Irish Irish Also known as "The Christ Child's Lullaby" or "Mary's Lullaby" "Sweet Jesus Was the Sacred Name" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, (Short Carol) "Sweetest of All Names, Jesus" words by Fr. William Devereaux 18th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "Talj, Talj" ("Snow, Snow") Fairuz Arabic "The Angel Said to Joseph Mild" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, (Short Carol) "The Darkest Midnight in December" words by Fr. William Devereaux 18th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "The First Day of the Year" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "This Christmass Day You Pray me Sing" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, (short Carol) "This Feast of St Sylvester So Well Deserves a Song" words by Fr. William Devereaux 18th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "This is our Christmas Day" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, (Short Carol) "This is St Stephen's Day" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "To Greet Our Saviour's Dear One" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "Tu scendi dalle stelle" ("From Starry Skies Thou Comest") Traditional Italian "Wexford Carol" (also "Enniscorthy Carol") Traditional Irish English "Ya Maryam el Bekr" ("O Virgin Mary") Fairuz Arabic "Ye Sons of Men with Me Rejoice" words by Fr. William Devereaux 18th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols"

The list looks short but quite good. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:42, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Curious as to what contradictions you noted in the above analysis?

You proposed reorganization is a significant improvement, and I support it.

I still think that the "language" colum is superfluous, however. Chrismas carols and songs have been translated into virtually every language, some so long ago that the "original" language can be virtually impossible to determine. I have, for example, an entire book on "Silent Night" (which we happen to know was originally in German), in which the lyrics have been translated into 60 different languages. Moreover, in some of these languages extra verses have been written which don't appear in other languages (but could, of course, if someone takes a fancy to them and decides to translate them).

Still, your version of the chart is a definite step forward; go for it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.176.249 (talk) 21:33, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

References

Romanian carols

Why are the translations of the Romanian carols not given?Vorbee (talk) 18:25, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Jingle Bells

"Jingle Bells" is not a Christmas song/carol. It has no references to Christmas in it. It's like "Frosty The Snowman," "Winter Wonderland," and "Let It Snow." Sure it's standard to sing them around the holidays, but they don't have anything to do with Christmas. So why is "Jingle Bells" listed? I know this has been discussed before, but it seems as though no resolution was found. Removing "Jingle Bells" isn't controversial, but due diligence. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 03:37, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

The question, really, is whether this is intended to be a list of Christmas Carols, or a list of Christmas Songs. "Carol" has a rather specific musicological definition -- which has changed over different musical epochs. If this is to be a list of Carols, then a lot of material will need to be eliminated (E.g., most of the cradle songs.)

If, OTOH, it is a list of Christmas Songs, then both traditional and popular songs utilized for the holiday should be fair game. (And that would make it a more useful list.) You could have a list of all Christmas Songs, and asterisk those which are actually Carols, with an appropriate footnote.

In re Jingle Bells, that the lyrics contain no Christmas references does not negate the fact that it has become, for all intents and purposes, a Christmas tradition -- and has been for well over a century. True, it may possibly have been written for Thanksgiving (although it doesn't contain any Thanksgiving references, either), but the fact is, few people sing "Jingle Bells" for Thanksgiving -- or, for that matter, for Halloween, Independence Day, Arbor Day, or any other holiday -- they sing it for Christmas.

Applying your criterion is problematic, in other ways. It would preclude the inclusion of any instrumental music written for Christmas (Carol of the Bells).

It would preclude inclusion of a whole subgenre of songs considered traditional for Christmas: (Good King Wenceslas; Deck the Hall; The Holly and the Ivy; Here We Come A-caroling; etc). None of these very popular traditional holiday songs mention word one about Christmas.

And what about tunes that weren't written as Christmas tunes originally, but had Christmas lyrics added, sometimes years or even centuries later? (Hark! The Herald Angels Sing).

Jingle Bells has not only become a Christmas song, it's an iconic Christmas song. If a film-maker or playwright wants to suggest Christmas in a scene, they have only to have someone hum the first 3 or 4 bars of "Jingle Bells" -- sometimes the first three notes are enough -- and 99% of the audience will be thinking of Christmas trees and flying reindeer.

But in the end, it depends on whether the intent is for this to be a useful list, or one that's only informative to a very specific cult of stodgy academics -- who probably don't need it anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.253 (talk) 22:44, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Australian Christmas Carols

Not sure if I'm putting this in the right place, but wondering if someone could please add Australian Christmas carols to the list. There's a lot of them, a few well known ones can be found here https://www.australiantimes.co.uk/lifestyle/entertainment/10-greatest-ever-australian-christmas-songs/ but with terrible examples of them being sung) In particular

- "Carol of the Birds (Orana)" & "The Three Drovers" are very well known Aussie carols to all school children & performed at almost every end of year/Christmas primary school concert

- "The Wiggles" songs such as "go santa go" & "santa wear your shorts" are sung to 100,000 people live each year, along with millions of tv viewers at the Sydney Carols by Candlelight & just as much staples to Aussie kids as Jingle bells or Rudolf the red nose reindeer are

- "Santa Never Made It into Darwin" reached number 2 on the Australian music charts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_and_Boyd

- Rolf Harris's "6 white boomers" is also an old staple

Christmas in Australia is in the middle of summer, so replacements are needed for carols that other countries sing that relate to snow & cold, so we have a lot of locally written ones, the above being some of the most universal ones — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.211.105.8 (talk) 15:54, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Erroneous Reverting of changes removing Carols/Songs from English Section to American Section

I noticed errors in the list for English Carols, and I have corrected for these errors but they have continuously been reverted by User:Walter Görlitz to its inaccurate state. These errors included carols misplaced in the English section and songs that should not be on the list.

The first issue is related to a confusion of the Carol Star of the East where there are two Carols (one American and the other English) that are known by the same name. The English carol is better known as Brightest and Best and was written by Reginald Heber in 1811, however the version listed in the English section directs to the American carol, Star to the East, along with the information that cites German Alfred Hans Zoller as writing the song under the title Stern über Bethlehem (Star above Bethlehem), with American George Cooper translating the words in 1890, and music by Amanda Kennedy in 1883. I moved this carol to the American Section where it is recognised as belonging to and added the information related to the English carol known as Brightest and Best to the English section with a note accompanying both Carols to Not to confuse with each other. The two Carols are completely different Hear the American carol here and the English carol here

The second issue is in reference to songs that do not belong in the English section and/or are not related to Christmas. These songs included: Mary, Did You Know? which lists "words from American Mark Lowry, and music by Buddy Greene" I Pray on Christmas which lists "written and by Harry Connick Jr." Both songs are American written and produced and if it is to be included should be in the American section and not the English.

In reference to the first song Mary, Did You Know?, this song is not related to the birth of Jesus (Christmas) but rather his death and resurrection (Easter), despite its wiki article claiming to be about Christmas, the song does not make mention of the nativity but rather his dying to save us all (listen to the song here). The Second song I Pray on Christmas by Harry Connick Jr. is a popular Christmas song (Listen Here). if this song is valid in this list then so are songs like All I Want for Christmas Is You by Mariah Carey, and Fairytale of New York by The Pogues

This needs to be changed with the relevant songs associated with the American section moved there and those associated to the English section moved to that section. The removal of these popular songs needs to occur. They can appear the Popular Christmas Song list and User:Walter Görlitz needs to cease reverting valid changes. If he is adamant of these songs appearing on the list and in the sections he keeps reverting to, then he needs to provide citations to back up his argument as specified in WP:RS

Each verse OF "Mary, Did You Know?" starts with "Mary, did you know/that your baby boy ...". How in the world is that about his death and resurrection?

You are creating an artificial divide between carols and songs. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:31, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

And the song ends with the lyric, "The sleeping child you're holding". The song is a nativity tune not unlike "Still, still, still".` Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:07, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

And yet throughout the song he applies past tenses "Did you Know" instead of future "Do You Know" and not once does the song make reference to the nativity. If anything you have demonstrated, is that the song is badly constructed. I think my point has been made with your response (look up what constitutes Baby, I think you will find that the mention of the word Baby boy does not necessarily mean newborn and cannot be applied to the nativity in this circumstance, considering he mentions none of the events of the nativity but rather making blind men see and deaf men hear. A baby is not a baby for one day).

What is your explanation for the Harry Connick Jr. song I Pray on Christmas?, and Why are you repeatedly adding this song to the list?

And more importantly Why are both Mary, Did You Know? and I Pray on Christmas placed in the English section when there is an American section when both songs are American written, produced, and preformed?

I have not created an "artificial divide between carols and songs" (as you put it), that does not already exist, otherwise songs such as All I Want for Christmas Is You, Fairytale of New York Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree, Last Christmas and many many other songs about Christmas would all have a valid reason (as you put it) to be included in the list. The consequence would be that the list would expand exponentially to an unsustainable rate and would not function as it is suppose to, whereby an individual or individuals will request it is broken up into different wiki articles (which happens already) labelled differently (which is the difference between Carol and Popular Christmas Song) so that people can digest the information and seek out what they are looking for more easily. By adding both Mary, Did You Know? and I Pray on Christmas you are pushing the quantity over the quality of the article which is harming its effectiveness. Why push so hard on these two songs and not on any of the other Popular Christmas Songs I have listed above? I suspect you are not taking a WP:NPOV and you are letting your overtly Christian values to fog your objectivity and see the forest for the trees.

All the same I welcome that allowed the move of Star of the East to the American section and adding of Brightest and Best information to the English section, but on the other issues you need to come to your senses for the benefit of the article

Did you know is not past tense, it's future perfect.

I don't know about "I Pray on Christmas", but it's got the term in the title. Why are you repeatedly removing it from the list? I'm restoring it because it was added by someone for a reason, but I know for a fact you're wrong about "Mary, Did You Know", about formatting song titles (you italicize them here), and about WP:LISTGAP, so assume you're equally wrong about that. Find out who added it and ask them and the previous editors who removed songs from the list why it's here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:46, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, the tense is actually a bit more complex, "did you know that ... will", but still quite future. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:31, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

What term does "I Pray on Christmas" have in the title that entitles its inclusion on this list? Is it "I prey" or is it "Christmas"? If you are suggesting "I Prey" is the vital term in the title, then you are mistaken, being religious does not necessarily imply Christmas, which is the same problem you make with "Mary, Did You Know" which does not mention anything about the events of the nativity. If you think the term "Christmas" is the vital element in the title that validates inclusion on this list, then you are mistaken, for the reason as I have already pointed out to you previously. Just because someone packages something up and throws on a label does not necessarily mean it is what it claims to be. The writer and performer of this song, Harry Connick Jr., does not even claim that the song is a Christmas carol. There is no mention of anything remotely related to Christmas in the song (Traditional or modern), other than the term Christmas. If Christmas is the vital term that enables inclusion on this list, then why not All I Want for Christmas Is You, Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree, Last Christmas, All Alone on Christmas and many others to be included. At least these songs are based around the period of Christmas. Then again what about Christmas novelty songs, such as All I Want for Christmas Is My Two Front Teeth, Nuttin' for Christmas, I Want a Hippopotamus for Christmas, I'm Walking Backwards for Christmas or many others with Christmas in the title, do they not deserve to be included based on your logic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.37.42.201 (talk) 12:03, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Just because someone added the songs to the list, does not mean they should be included. According to Wiki guidelines, they should be within scope of the article (in this case Christmas Carols not Popular Christmas Songs) and therefore "I Pray on Christmas" violates WP:OOS. I do not need to contact the individual that put the song onto the list, to seek out his/her motives for doing it according to wiki's guidelines. The burden is on the individual who wishes to add something to the list to prove that it is relevant. According to wiki guidelines they must provide appropriate citations as to WP:RS. When User:Walter Görlitz repeatedly reverted the omitting of "I Pray on Christmas" and "Mary, Did You Know", he took over the burden of providing the evidence that both songs are valid for inclusion. Saying "I know for a fact" for "Mary, Did You Know" which violates WP:OR and I don't know about "I Pray on Christmas", which violates WP:UNDUE, and does not constitute a valid reason for their inclusion. By repeatedly adding the song when you admit you don't know why it is included but as you put it " because it was added by someone for a reason" confirms you are knowingly violating WP:VANDAL which is not acceptable. 81.37.42.201 (talk) 12:03, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

If you wish to keep the songs on the list then you must provide reliable sources according to wiki guidelines. I welcome the fact that you moved "Mary, Did You Know" to the American section. The same needs to be done to the "I Pray on Christmas" song if evidence can be found that the song is considered a Christmas Carol, as the writer and performer of the song, Harry Connick Jr., as many people already know is American and not English. 81.37.42.201 (talk) 12:03, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Again, I don't know if you're being funny, are blissfully ignorant or simply incapable with the language, but 1) I don't care if "I Pray on Christmas" is included or not, but while "pray" and "prey" are homonyms, they are not the same word, and you fully know that the word in question is Christmas. Perhaps opening the question to a larger audience would be appropriate. 2) when you repeatedly remove "Mary Don't You Know" and mis-characterize it as an Easter or resurrection song, it tells me that you shouldn't be working on the article at all. You are the one who says that you know for a fact, I'm pointing to the lyrics to state it is a nativity song. Period. Again, if you want to open the discussion to a larger audience, I'm OK with that. It is certainly a Christmas song. You have failed to give a definition to distinguish a carol from a song so we have that to debate, but it is No. 209 in the Baptist Hymnal 2008‎ and No. 192 in Worship and Rejoice so it7's more than just a song. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:53, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

So just to reiterate, you were wrong that "Mary Don't You Know" is a Christmas-themed song. I don't know if it is a carol or not, it is both Christmas and has appeared in at least two hymnals. The other song is clearly associated with Christmas, but I have no further knowledge of it. I suggest that you ask the individuals who added it (as you have been challenged, and at this point, WP:STATUSQUO would apply) or find a broader consensus. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:19, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

You can be belligerent and insulting all you want; it is usually the act of an individual mistaken and cannot accept both the truth and facts that makes use of such methods. You seem to be changing your position on "I Pray on Christmas" to a level that would confuse anyone. In your latest responses you first write at 02:53, 14 December 2020, that “I don't care if "I Pray on Christmas" is included or not!” then a few hours later you respond again at 07:19, 14 December 2020 with:

“The other song is clearly associated with Christmas, but I have no further knowledge of it. I suggest that you ask the individuals who added it (as you have been challenged, and at this point, WP:STATUSQUO would apply) or find a broader consensus.”,

which tells me you do care if "I Pray on Christmas" was not included. For your information WP:STATUSQUO does not apply here as it is clear you are status quo stonewalling and WP:STONEWALL would apply here. I would also add I have reviewed who did put "I Pray on Christmas" on the list. It was added by User:Bib many years ago (28 December 2006) before the format of the list as it exists today (See Here) and included Popular Christmas songs. He seems to be a Harry Connick Jr. fan and had added The Happy Elf Song and (It Must've Been Ol') Santa Claus both by Harry Connick, Jr. and Here Comes Santa Claus (Right Down Santa Claus Lane) at the same time of adding "I Pray on Christmas". He has not been active on Wikipedia since 2016 (See Here), therefore it is no use contacting him and may violate Wikipedia:Harassment to do so. It thereby reverts back to you since you have been doing the reverting and engaging into WP:EDITWAR. The question therefore is would you object to omitting "I Pray on Christmas” from the list considering 1) the information I have supplied about the user that added it to the list, 2) you wrote you “do not care if "I Pray on Christmas" is included or not” and 3) as you said to another editor on 21:07, 7 December 2017 “feel free to remove a carol if it's not originally from a particular region”. As I wrote previously If you wish to keep the "I Pray on Christmas" song (if evidence can be found that the song is considered a Christmas Carol), then it needs to be moved to the American section and not remain in the English section as the writer and performer of the song, Harry Connick Jr., as many people already know is American and not English and by keeping as it is and knowing this fully highlights that you are wilfully be disruptive.

Why is Mary, Did You Know? (and not as you wrote in your response "Mary Don't You Know") very personal to you. I do not understand why you keep reverting to it. I do not think the song should be included but when I wrote in my previous response that I welcome the fact that you moved "Mary, Did You Know" to the American section that this issue was resolved. I expect you will be challenged again on the issue, simply because there is, despite your best protests, no reference to the nativity or events surrounding the nativity in the song and anyone can see this in just a quick glance at the lyrics. The evidence from the lyrics, the word “baby boy”, that you think proves your argument, does not. As I pointed out previously, if the song contained the word newborn you might have a case, but as I wrote before, a baby is not a baby for a day and you need to look up the definition of the word to understand that and in fact the term may even be stretched beyond its conventional meaning. Someone in conversation to an 80-year-old woman may refer to her 60-year-old son as her baby boy, then again maybe the 80-year-old mother would refer to her son as her baby boy. Is any of this wrong? The woman did give birth to him (her baby) and he is a boy. So, in the end there is no evidence from the lyrics that confirm if it is from the nativity or that it refers to the nativity but rather a song on redemption, Period. As I wrote before this issue is for someone else to argue. It is out of the English section and in the American section where it should be if it is not challenged in the future and remains on the list.

Finally, your claim that I "shouldn't be working on the article at all" is outrageous. This article nor any other Wikipedia article is neither yours or my property and therefore neither of us has the right to tell the other they cannot work on the article. It is my belief that you are violating WP:POVRAILROAD to push your agenda and discourage my and other editors participation. Reviewing the history of this article through its talk page reveals discussions on the structure and what constitutes inclusion have been discussed many times and consensus of these issues were struck where it was eventually agreed after some tossing and pulling that songs that were popular with the word Christmas in the title or were religious did not necessarily constitute a Christmas carol and should be removed from the list (See here1 and here2 and here3 and here4) and here5 and here6 and here7 and here8 and here9 and here10. Separate articles with lists related to the other forms of Christmas music (such as Popular Christmas songs, Christmas Novelty Songs, and winter carols) could easily be created if they do not already exist. This article needs to stay on topic and not violate WP:OOS as the inclusion of anything with Christmas in the title or anything religious would result in the article becoming too bulky and useless. As the WP:OOS reads "Wikipedia is not the internet, it is an encyclopaedia". Encyclopaedias have sections so that people can easily seek the information they require and that they can digest that information. User:Walter Görlitz by all means open the conversation to a larger audience. I thought that is what we were doing as this conversation is in the public view on the talk page of the article and not in a private setting. If you wish to seek an arbitration or an editor with special responsibilities to discuss the behaviour as in WP:DR, then that is equally fine. it's up to you, it's your choice. I am fine with it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.37.42.201 (talk) 18:42, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

As for belligerence, etc, I was thinking the same for you.

My sole connection to the Buddy Greene and Mark Lowry song is that I am familiar with it. You have failed to explain how yo can so fully and deeply misunderstand the song, first insisting that it is an Easter song. To clarify, I don't keep reverting your removal, I have done so only in reaction to you incorrect removal of it. It is my belief that you're unable to admit that you were wrong about the nature of the song. In fact, let's start here: is the main theme of "Mary, Did You Know?" Christmas or nativity, or Easter and crucifixion?

I have no agenda here other than what I do across the project: prevent incorrect information from being added and preventing correct information from being removed.

Also, stop linking my name. It's not only unnecessary, it's rude, and sign your comments on the page. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:19, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Walter Görlitz I see that you want to continue status quo stonewalling and not answer the question I put to in relation to "I Pray on Christmas" in order to WP:POVRAILROAD your agenda and discourage and discredit other editors from collaborating in this article, and which violates WP:STONEWALL. So, I will ask you a second time again would you object to omitting "I Pray on Christmas” from the list considering 1) the information I have supplied about the user that added it to the list, 2) you wrote you “do not care if "I Pray on Christmas" is included or not” and 3) as you said to another editor on 21:07, 7 December 2017 “feel free to remove a carol if it's not originally from a particular region”. As I wrote previously If you wish to keep the "I Pray on Christmas" song (if evidence can be found that the song is considered a Christmas Carol), then it needs to be moved to the American section and not remain in the English section as the writer and performer of the song, Harry Connick Jr., as many people already know is American and not English and by keeping as it is and knowing this fully highlights that you are wilfully be disruptive.

You write "you have no agenda here than what I do across the project: prevent incorrect information from being added and preventing correct information from being removed", however, you engaged in WP:EDITWAR to retain false information, which is why I suspect you will not address the question of "I Pray on Christmas". In the first instance you reverted information related Star to the East which was listed in the English section when it was American and the information listed with it about George Cooper supported that. Not only that but you removed information in relation to the English carol that is often known by the same name but more commonly as Brightest and Best which was written in 1811 by Reginald Heber. Secondly you reverted to retain Mary, Did You Know? and "I Pray on Christmas” on the list when neither are related to the nativity, Christmastide, or twelvetide. Furthermore you kept them listed in the English section when you knowingly knew both were written and performed by American's as I had pointed them out to you. You engaged in WP:OR with "I know for a fact" for retaining "Mary, Did You Know" and WP:UNDUE for "I Pray on Christmas" by writing "I don't know about "I Pray on Christmas", but it's got the term in the title and I'm restoring it because it was added by someone for a reason". Even when it was pointed out to you that it was not listed in the correct section you still maintained it in the English section when I am sure many people know Harry Connick Jr. who wrote and performed "I Pray on Christmas" is American. Therefore you did knowingly add incorrect information to the article and as such violated WP:VANDAL.

You know other popular Christmas songs including those with Christmas in the title were removed from the article for eactly the same reason I have referred to (See for example the reference of Christmas Lights being removed here If everything religious or with the term Christmas in the title was added to the list it would cease to be practical. By your logic Christmas Popular songs such as All I Want for Christmas Is You, Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree, Last Christmas, All Alone on Christmas and Christmas Novelty Songs such asAll I Want for Christmas Is My Two Front Teeth, Nuttin' for Christmas, I Want a Hippopotamus for Christmas, I'm Walking Backwards for Christmas and many others would be added. This was initially the case but as I pointed out to you previously a consensus was reached over much debate with songs that were popular and contained the word Christmas in the title or were religious did not necessarily constitute a Christmas carol and should be removed from the list(See here1 and here2 and here3 and here4) and here5 and here6 and here7 and here8 and here9 and here10. However, you wish to go against the consensus of all these editors. That is what is referred to in wiki guidelines as disruptive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.37.42.201 (talk) 22:12, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm stonewalling? No. I asked you a simple question. What is the primary theme of "Mary, Did You Know?" Is it Christmas or something else? And again, sign your comments. Long essays will be ignored. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:34, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Buried in the essay above is your incorrect claim that "Mary, Did You Know?" is not "related to the nativity, Christmastide, or twelvetide". You're simply wrong and as I have shown you, the lyrics support that. You are using your own misinterpretation of the song's lyrics to support your claim. Unless you recognize that the song is a nativity carol, we have nothing further to discuss with you. I don't care about the other song, but since you are clearly wrong about "Mary, Did You Know?" I will assume you're wrong about it as well. Good bye. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:37, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

And I just want to be clear, it's because you refuse to listen to reason or change your incorrect opinion. You are attempting to wikiplawyer your WP:POV and will not list to simple facts. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:56, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

User:Walter Görlitz I see you are still trying to WP:GAME. I addressed your questions on "Mary, Did You Know?" multiple times, making it clear that while it was a Christian Song, it was not related to Christmas as there is no mention in the lyrics of the events of the nativity, (not to mention Christmastide and Twelvetide), however you disagree and have made spurious claims trying to link to the lyrics of the song.

Regarding the song “I Pray on Christmas", you write that you “don’t care about the other song” (as you address it) and because I will not bend to your incorrect belief you hold about "Mary, Did You Know?" you will assume I am wrong about it and you (which you write as we (plural) as opposed to I (Singular)) will have nothing further to discuss with me. From my understanding you are basically agreeing here that you are fine with having incorrect and dubious information within this article if it supports your agenda and discourages the collaboration of other editors. I believe User:Walter Görlitz this contravenes Wikipedia guidelines and policies on WP:VANDAL and WP:POVRAILROAD.

I note that you did move “I Pray on Christmas" out of the English section and into the American section and I welcome this action. It was long overdue. However, I am concerned at the gaming tactics (WP:GAME) that you are implying when you made the change. In the reason for the change you made on 23:40, 14 December 2020, where you write:

“per request from Spanish anon and correctly alphabetizing. Not sure if these are songs or carols, anon won't discuss that.”

In the first instance while moving “I Pray on Christmas” to the American section, you also make alterations to carols listed, such as "It Came Upon the Midnight Clear", and others and which you add “Not sure if these are songs or carols, anon won't discuss that”. If you are unsure if they are carols or songs, then why are you dictating to others what constitutes a carol and saying how I was “creating an artificial divide between carols and songs” here. Additionally, you know perfectly well that I did not object to "It Came Upon the Midnight Clear" or any of the other carols you highlighted in your change and it is therefore my belief you are attempting to game (WP:GAME) other editors in believing I am the person that wishes to retain “I Pray on Christmas” on the list whereby another editor will revert your change (not realizing the change would revert “I Pray on Christmas” incorrectly into the English section) and you will have support of retaining “I Pray on Christmas” in the English section rather than the American section where it should be (as Harry Connick Jr. who wrote and performed the song is American) if it is a Christmas carol which I believe it is not. Secondly, while you could have written per request from anon editor or something else, you write “per request from Spanish anon”, in my belief, to attempt to discredit (WP:GAME) my participation in the article as to what would a Spanish person know of English and/or American Christmas Carols? However, you again make a serious error in your judgement. Just because my IP is Spanish, does not mean I am Spanish. Have you ever heard of Free Movement? In Just the same way you claim to be a native speaker of Canadian-English, does not mean you cannot be of German citizenship/heritage or another nationality/heritage or that you may claim to be a Christian but then do very unchristian like acts. This is the message I have been trying to get to you throughout, but you have chosen to be truculent and irrational. As I had previously wrote just because “Mary, Did You Know?" and “I Pray on Christmas” are both Christian based does not mean both are Christmas Carols and Just because “I Pray on Christmas” has Christmas in the title does not mean it is a Christmas Carol as I have previously specified voluminously with the community of editors consensus of this article stipulations (See here1 and here2 and here3 and here4 and here5 and here6 and here7 and here8 and here9 and here10).

Nevertheless, I recognize that you have made a compromise by moving both songs to the American section (albeit under suspicious circumstances) and I have made a compromise in that both “Mary, Did You Know?" and “I Pray on Christmas” remain on the list (despite my belief both belong elsewhere, and I suspect others will raise this issue with you again in the future). I think this resolves the issue in a somewhat amicable situation and I wish you a Merry Christmas, well in your future endeavors and I hope you have taken some of what I have wrote on board and that you are not so impulsive and unreasonable in your future interactions with other editors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.37.42.201 (talk) 13:35, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

You see, you're blind to the facts and continue to deny that Mary, Did You Know? is a Christmas song. It is addressed to Mary during the nativity. Since you won't acknowledge that plain fact, for whatever reason, trying to discuss weightier issues with you will likely fail to make any progress. You have not, in fact, made any compromises. Cheers. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:30, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

User:Walter Görlitz, I have stated my case above and made plenty of compromises by relenting on your insistence Mary, Did You Know? and I Pray for Christmas should remain on the list despite the lyrics of 'Mary, Did You Know? not relating to any event of the nativity and I Pray for Christmas being a popular Christmas song similar to others which I highlighted were removed by other editors as they were not considered as Christmas Carols in accordance to the consensus reached by the community working on this article. if you wish to remain disgruntled, then that is your choice, I will leave it there and once again wish you luck in the future. Goodbye 81.37.42.201 (talk) 19:13, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Again, the fact that you do not accept (or possibly understand) that "Mary, Did You Know?" is actually a nativity song, is the root cause of the problem. The two links to Hymnary.org support the claim, as do these [`https://torreygazette.com/blog/2017/12/5/in-defense-of-mary-did-you-know] [6] [7] [8]. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:49, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Of course it has absolutely nothing to do with the nativity which was discussed at length above and anyone reading this who wishes to see that, can read it for themselves. Clearly we see things differently User:Walter Görlitz but we have made compromises and we move on. We don't hold grudges because that is not what Wikipedia is about (which brings together many people across the world). So for the third time good luck with your future 81.37.42.201 (talk) 22:05, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Of course it is a nativity song as anyone with eyes to see will understand. I'm done with your denial. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:18, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Huron Carol

The "Huron Carol" ("Jesous Ahatonhia") is listed under American carols. However, when you go to the page about the Huron Carol, it is cited as a Canadian carol, having been written in 1642 by French Jesuit missionary Jean de Brébeuf. The original language of the carol is Huron/Wendat with the carol later translated into English. (I wonder if there is a French-language version.)

I can make this change, but I wonder if I should add it as a Canadian carol or an Indigenous-language carol (or even specifically a North American Indigenous-language or Huron/Wendat-language carol). Or can it be added to both categories (which would mean creating two new categories)?

I'd appreciate guidance on this from a more experienced Wikipedia editor.

Thank you for your input. Bayonett (talk) 15:37, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes, you can. It's quite Canadian. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:42, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Carols and Christmas songs

Can I discuss the inclusion of the secular American Christmas songs in the list of American carols? Currently, it includes Jingle Bells, Christmas Song (Chestnuts), Silver Bells and Rudolph. I am aware that the opening paragraph mentions the Christmas songs that focus on secular themes. However, in previous discussions on this page, the previous contributors made a distinction between the different kinds of songs for Christmas. If these few secular songs are included, would we need to go ahead an include Frosty, White Christmas, Let It Snow, I Wish It Could Be Christmas Every Day and other secular songs of that kind? It's a question of consistency. Yip1982 (talk) 12:24, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

You can, but do you have a reliable source that clearly states they are not carols that are not WP:UNDUE with respect to others that state they are carols? There are many clearly secular carols ("Deck the Hall" being the most prominent, but "Here We Come A-wassailing" and others fall into this list) so you'll have to come up with a distinction other than your arbitrary sacred-secular divide. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:54, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, those songs belong to other Christmas Music categories i.e. Winter songs and/or Christmas Novelty Songs, Popular Christmas Songs, Christmas Hit Singles and should be removed from here and placed into their relevant wiki articles and categories, which was the consensus reached by the majority of editors as evidenced by the other comments in this talk page.

One such Reliable Source that demarcates the difference between a Christmas Carol from a Popular Christmas Song can be viewed here.

References

This article should remain close to how a Christmas Carol is defined in the Christmas Carol wiki article. 37.18.134.184 (talk) 16:42, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

It is quite ironic that the editor above had requested a Reliable Source from another editor (also above) to remove unsourced material. That's not how things work here on Wikipedia. The burden of proof is on the individual to provide Reliable Sources if they wish to add to the article, not the other way round. This request smacks of status quo stonewalling and WP:STONEWALL, not to forget WP:OWNERSHIP. Even more so, considering this same editor's use of WP:OR and WP:UNDUE against many other editors' (listed above) requested improvements to the article, just in order to repel any such changes to the article, and also his continuous reverts on any such changes to the article made by other editors. Specifically when considering that there was no such citations to any of the introduction of this article until I recently added the above citation (which I was able to do as this same editor is currently serving out a block for this same behaviour on other articles). This is also not how things work here on Wikipedia. Many editors collaborate and compromise with each other to reach a consensus on how the article should be structured. It is not for any one editor to take control of the content of the article to represent his/her WP:POV alone. Consistency is important, and this article and how it is defined should be consistent with the wiki articles of Christmas carol and carol. In regard to "Here We Come A-wassailing", this is not a Christmas carol but rather a New Year carol; also, it is not secular. It retains the lyrics "And God bless you and send you a Happy New Year, And God send you a Happy New Year."37.18.134.184 (talk) 13:13, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Multiple tunes for the same carol text

I was wondering if you could address an issue that pertains to the American carols with multiple tunes. In the American section, the entries for O Little Town and Away in a Manger have the different tunes mentioned under their entries. However, It Came Upon the Midnight Clear is another carol that has multiple tunes. I am aware that the Sears text and the Willis tune were created in America. However, congregations and choirs in the UK and the Commonwealth countries sing this text to a different tune, "Noel", adapted and arranged by Sullivan. Again this is a question of consistency. Why do we mention the UK "Forest Green" tune for O Little Town but not the UK tune for It Came Upon the Midnight Clear? Shouldn't we mention the preferred UK tunes for these texts in the section on UK-origin carols? Yip1982 (talk) 12:25, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Absolutely! "Do You Hear What I Hear?" is listed as an "English" carol, but it was written by an American, so I think the division by nation is odd and arbitrary. Your example is not ideal. There are at least three melodies for "O Little Town" that I know of, and other carols have can be sung multiple tunes. It might make more sense to list songs alphabetically by common name, and list language of origin with English or original language title where appropriate, then allow for multiple melodies to be listed where appropriate. All should be sourced of course. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:59, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: as this editor has some history on this article. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:00, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. I am here mostly for the German-language ones - many Swiss and Austrian - and believe that we should perhaps go by language rather than nationality. If a song is limited to one country it could be said in a footnote. Another possibility would be to make it one big list, sortable by language, sortable by primary country, etc. If more than one tune, please mention each. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:35, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Language is a good choice as well, but there are some carols that were originally in one language and are more popular in other languages. I was thinking something more like this:

Title	Lyricist	Language	Music	Notes	Ref
"Leise rieselt der Schnee"	Eduard Ebel	German	Leise rieselt der Schnee (Daniel Gottlob Türk or Eduard Ebel)	Title translation: "Softly Falls Every Snow Flake", c. 1895

With multiple entries, the sortable nature would be more clear. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:56, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

References

Definition of Carols listed intro

I have added the following, for the intro which I think gives a definition on what is listed here and on the consensus reached some years ago. It is fully cited with Wikipedia:Reliable sources. If anyone has any better cited sources, then please feel free to contribute.

This is a list of Christmas carols that is organized by the carol’s country and/or language of origin. The operational definition of what constitutes a Christmas carol and therefore inclusion on this list is as follows.

Christmas carols (or Noëls as they are sometimes referred to, especially for carols of French origin), are a subset within the category of Christmas music. Other subsets of this music that are often erroneously conflated with Christmas carols consist of popular Christmas songs (also referred to as Christmas anthems), Christmas novelty songs, Winter/solstice songs, New year carols (also referred to as Wassails), Annunciation carols, Advent carols and Epiphany carols. The lyrics and melody determine the genre of a musical composition, and while all subsets of Christmas music may be traditionally sung at Christmas and/or during the Christmas holiday season, not all forms of Christmas music are carols. The difference between a carol and a popular song is that a carol is a festive song, oratorio, or hymn that correspond with the Liturgical calendar, frequently performed by carollers or a choir, and that is often religious and/or spiritual but not necessarily connected with church worship, while a popular song can be festive but is generally secular in nature and is usually performed by a solo artist, duet, trio or a band. Another difference between Christmas carols and other subsets such as popular Christmas songs, Christmas novelty songs and winter/solstice songs is that, while carols are written for non-profit to spread a message of hope and unity between family and friends, other forms of music associated with Christmas tend to reflect the composer's personal experiences, often target children, and they are commercialized for entertainment purposes, with the goal to make a profit. Traditional Christmas carols celebrate the Christian events of the nativity and the Holy Family and as a result many carols were composed as lullabies for the infant Jesus, examples of which include Silent Night, The Rocking Carol, Tàladh Chrìosda (Christ's lullaby), Suantraí na Maighdine (The Virgin's Lullaby) and Ar Hyd y Nos (All Through the Night).

While other subsets of carols are religious in nature (such as Passiontide carols, and Easter carols), with some forming part of Christmas music (such as Annunciation carols, Advent carols, and Epiphany carols), none of them are Christmas carols. However, some Annunciation carols and Advent carols are often miscategorised as Christmas carols. Examples of Annunciation carols consist of Angelus ad virginem, Ave Maria, gratia plena, Gabriel's Message, and The Cherry-Tree Carol, while examples of Advent carols include Adam lay ybounden, Lo! He comes with clouds descending, Lo, how a rose e'er blooming, O Come, O Come, Emmanuel, and The truth sent from above. Similarly carols unrelated to the birth of Jesus such as Good King Wenceslas (a carol for St. Stephen's Day) and Epiphany carols are often unwittingly incorporated into Christmas carols due to the celebration of Twelve Days of Christmas which ranges from the 25 December to 5 January or Christmastide which ranges from the 24 December to 5 January. As a result, many misconstrued Christmas carols can be related to St Stephen's Day (26 December), St John's Day (27 December), Feast of Holy Innocents (28 December), St Sylvester's Day (31 December), and the Epiphany (also known as little/old Christmas, and/or Three Kings Day). Examples of Epiphany carols include As with Gladness Men of Old, We Three Kings, The Shepard's Farewell, and The Three Kings.

Further confusion is engendered with the application of the term 'carol' in reference to New Year's carols, as carols are religious and related to the birth of Jesus, while New Year's carols are performed for a generally secular celebration, Twelfth Night (a festival not too dissimilar to Yule), that coincides with the eve of Epiphany and includes some songs that have no religious reference at all, such as Deck the Halls and The Twelve Days of Christmas. However, these subset of songs (also referred to as Wassails) were performed during Wassailing, where groups of people would go house-to-house singing and wishing good health to the occupier in exchange of an alcoholic beverage of the same name, Wassail. Another group of singers, that did have some authority from local governance to perform, known as "Waits", sang as part of "Watchnight" which is New Year's Eve. Examples of other New Year's carols often conflated as Christmas carols consist of A New Year Carol, Here We Come A-wassailing, Gloucestershire Wassail, We Wish You a Merry Christmas, and What Cheer?. Other songs that are not grouped with New Year's carols nor make any specific reference to the nativity or the Holy Family, but are falsely considered to be Christmas carols include Ding Dong Merrily on High (about bells and angels), and O Christmas Tree (which is a mistranslation from its German original, O Tannenbaum, meaning Fir tree).

In recent years, the term 'carol' has become even more distorted and complicated to identify, due in part to the global marketing success by the United States of portraying Christmas within conditions many northern parts of the U.S. may encounter, such as a cold wintery climate with snow, frost, and/or ice. While Christmas in the Northern Hemisphere occurs in Winter, Christmas in the Southern Hemisphere takes places in the Summer. Winter/solstice songs misconstrued as Christmas carols usually reflect the weather conditions and experiences of specific regions within the Northern Hemisphere, while also making no reference to Christmas. Examples of Winter/solstice songs include Jingle Bells (written for Thanksgiving), Frosty the Snowman, Suzy Snowflake, and Once Upon a Wintertime. Additionally, the successful marketing by U.S. companies, combining music with created characters that targeted children for financial reward has contributed to the erroneous conflation of novelty Christmas songs with Christmas Carols. Examples of novelty Christmas songs include Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, Santa Claus Is Comin' to Town, Here Comes Santa Claus, Jolly Old St. Nicholas and You're a Mean One, Mr. Grinch.

This list will focus upon Christmas Carols in its traditional definition as specified and cited above. This list is not exhaustive.

References

37.18.134.184 (talk) 16:19, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

This needs work to avoid personal opinions being presented in Wikipedia's voice, for example "that are often erroneously conflated with", "are often miscategorised as", "are often unwittingly incorporated", "but are falsely considered", "become even more distorted", "songs misconstrued as" and "contributed to the erroneous conflation".

Words do change their meaning with time, and given that millions of people evidently do use the term "Christmas carol" in a broader way than is defined here, it is not acceptable to use Wikipedia's editorial voice to call those people "erroneous", or their preferred usage "distorted". The way to go is to explain the various usages, broad and narrow, but to set limits on the scope of the article, by defining the type of items that will go into it. Agreed limits are indeed needed if the article is not to turn into List of Christmas music. MichaelMaggs (talk) 21:33, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying but these terms are used in the citations utilized. How would you go about it? 37.18.134.184 (talk) 16:32, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

If they really do say exactly that, the expressions should be attributed clearly to the sources, and not presented as advocacy. The attributions are difficult to check as you mostly don't give full references. Could you please add page numbers to all of the citations, and post here a very short snippet (just a few words, to avoid copyright issues) of each of the seven examples I've queried above?

I can check the sourcing of one of your examples, specifically "Other songs that ... are falsely considered to be Christmas carols include Ding Dong Merrily on High". You reference that to Gant's Christmas Carols (2014) but without giving a page number. But Gant explicitly does consider that to be a Christmas carol (it's one of the carols he specifically discusses). On page 124 he says that the music was an old folk tune, originally nothing to do with Christmas. But its publication in the Cambridge Carol Book (1924), with new words by George Ratcliffe Woodward "places it smack in the middle of our Christmas Carol repertoire as if it had been there all its life, where it has stayed ever since." How did you conclude that Gant supports the statement that you added?

Your new lead should, I think, be reverted while these queries are addressed. MichaelMaggs (talk) 17:54, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Ok, First of all, try to keep this Wikipedia guideline in mind before writing. From what I understand from your complaint, you are not happy with the use of some words, particularly how the term Christmas carol is defined here, as it does not represent your personal opinion. Wikipedia is not about personal opinion., nor is Wikipedia responsible for its content. If you wish to be active and add to the article by providing a Reliable Source that states, as you write, that millions of people view it as such, then that is what you should do. But to remove cited material is not permissible, unless of course a consensus can be reached, as .Wikipedia does not censor. The term Christmas carol as defined here is supported by the citations I have provided from people who are authorities in the field. I would not go to any Wikipedia medical or legal articles and change the definitions of terms as used by the professionals in those fields, because they don't represent how I believe other people understand those terms.

You go on to complain that I don't give a page number for some of the citations, but I do give the section or chapter of where I attained the information, which is compliant with Wikipedia's guidelines on [sources|citing sources]. You request snippets from all the sources that I have provided, arguing it is difficult for you to review these sources. If I was to acquiesce to that, it would constitute a clear violation of [violations|Wikipedia's copyright policy]. However, all is not lost and you do have avenues to carry out your review. For one, you may attend to your local library in person or online, if that is possible, and view the books, if they have them. Another avenue is reviewing the books online through Google books and/or other online depositories, or alternatively, on websites where the books are sold, there is often a "look inside" option, which will enable you to read the first parts of the book. Most of the citations I have provided are paraphrases from the prefaces of books that define what a Christmas carol is; (and is not), this is entirely appropriate, considering that this article is about a List of Christmas Carols, and not about specific carols/songs. However, not all the citations provided are books, some are websites and news agencies' articles and are freely available online for your convenience, including archived copies, linked in the citation. I would also point out that the citations are quite diverse, as they are not from one specific place nor year (some citations are European, others are from the U.S., some are from the 1900s, and some are from the 2000s).

You go on to provide a snippet of Ding Dong Merrily on High" from Gant's Christmas Carols (2014) and question how I can conclude that Gant supports the statement that I added. Gant writes this, but then goes on to criticise the song (for example, defining the lyrics as 'illogical'), and in his final sentence of his appraisal of the song he writes "It might not go in your carol service, but it should be fun at the party afterwards", which is hardly an endorsement of the song as a Christmas carol. To understand the reason for the citation, try to look at the preface of his book, rather than the chapters. Articles related to specific songs have their own relevant Wikipedia articles where a thorough review of those songs can occur. This article focuses on primarily on what constitutes a Christmas carol. I have not cherrypicked specific pages to push an agenda.

You then recommend I revert these changes to the previous lead, which contained no citations, other than one, which I maintained here and which stated everything that is here and that you have disagreed with. I disagree with reverting to the old lead as to do so would contravene Wikipedia's guideline on Original Research. As the template on the top of this article reads, "Unsourced material may be challenged and removed." and therefore it would be completely justifiable to remove everything of that old lead, except that one cited sentence which, as I have pointed out, states everything the new lead states. As I have highlighted before, if you wish to be active, then by all means contribute and provide a Reliable Source, but do not expect to have your personal point of view dictate the article, as Wikipedia does not censor; also, remain civil with your dealings with other editors by maintaining good faith.

I have been trying to get editors from WikiProject Christmas, WikiProject Holidays, and WikiProject Christianity involved, as this comes under their control. Perhaps you might want to try to do this as well. If they get involved and there is a consensus to change it, I will of course agree. It will at least give us a chance to get a new consensus, so that we can move on.37.18.134.184 (talk) 12:00, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

I didn't revert immediately as you have clearly spent a lot of time on this, but your attempt to justify the use of Gant to support a position diametrically opposite to the one he specifically sets out in his book makes it pretty clear this is advocacy. Whether you intend that or not I don't know, but I do regret your immediate resorting to the assume good faith guideline as a means of pushing back on a challenge to the accuracy of your sourcing. Let me ask again: where exactly in Gant do you find that Ding Dong Merrily on High is "falsely considered" (your choice of words) to be a Christmas carol? If you now say that it's your interpretation of what he says, why did you say initially that "these terms are used in the citations utilized"? So far as I can tell, in this case that statement appears not to be accurate.

It's concerning that you decline to back up any of the expressions I queried by page number or by citing a snippet (which, contrary to what you say, is perfectly allowable provided that the snippets are small). Furthermore, it's quite incorrect to suggest that your text can't be reverted; it most certainly can if the sources you rely on do not support the statements you have made. If you are unable or unwilling to address the accuracy concerns I raised, it will be best to revert under the WP:BRD procedure, so that more discussion can take place here. Luckily you've already copied your entire text above, so that it's easily available.

I don't think we should take any position on the 'correct' definition of "Christmas carol", which seems to be what you're trying to do, as there is simply no such thing: different people use the term in different ways. What we should be discussing is solely what the inclusion criterion should be for this article. You're perfectly at liberty to suggest a restricted criterion, such as for example "religious song relating to the birth of Christ", if that is indeed what you intend, but four lengthy paragraphs of unclear advocacy don't meet that end. MichaelMaggs (talk) 13:20, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

As my wife leads preparations for our annual Christmas music program, I just want to thank everyone for all of the great musical options. As Stake Music Chair, she will communicate with the ten Ward Music Chairmen some of the best selections, such as "God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen." We always find the JOY of the season. AstroU (talk) 14:02, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

First and foremost, you need to stop making accusations and be civil. I pointed out the assume good faith guideline as you immediately jumped the gun and accussed me of making it all up. As I pointed out in my previous comment, the term you keep objecting to is seen in the preface of the book where I advised you to view. You are correct, I did spend many days reading and writing this article. How you can view Gant agrees with Ding Dong Merrily on High being a Christmas carol from the short introductory snippet you provided and at the same time ignore how he goes on to criticise it, which I provided in my last comments, is beyond belief, but I guess different folks for different strokes as the expression goes.

At no point have I suggested that this lead cannot be reverted. Please provide where I made this claim. Again you are jumping the gun and making inappropriate bad faith accusations, which is not acceptable. I am very much aware it could be reverted. What I pointed out is, that in the event of a revert of this new lead, to the old lead would result in Original Research, considering the old lead was uncited, except for one citation which supported what the new lead stated and as the template at the top of this article reads, "Unsourced material may be challenged and removed." and therefore it would be completely justifiable to remove anything of that old lead, except that one cited sentence.

I have taking no such position of defining the correct definition of Christmas carol. I have followed the sources but you discredit those sources because you disagree with them. You have mentioned an inclusion criteria in your comment and previously to that comment you had said that you "Agreed limits are indeed needed if the article is not to turn into List of Christmas music", however, you have made no suggestions on how to do this (which I had requested from you) and seem to be quite pleased to have the article run into disrepair and accept any song (as long as people believe it) to be included, so that every song from Popular Christmas songs, Winter Songs, to Novelty Christmas songs are included. That is not been co-operative. I do believe a "religious song relating to the birth of Christ" should be a primary inclusion criteria as all 18 sources I have provided quite clearly state this. I understand that the four paragraphs is a bit bulky and this may be reduced to a bullet pointed list.

I am happy others have now participated in the debate and I hope more will join in. I will of course, as I pointed out in my previous comment, abide by any consensus reached by those editors on any such changes to the lead, but based on your previous comments, I don't think you will. Am I correct in my assessment? 37.18.134.184 (talk) 14:45, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

If we're both discussing this in good faith we ought to be able to make progress entirely on the merits without imputing bad intentions on either side. You, as I understand it, take the view that a primary inclusion criteria should be "religious song relating to the birth of Christ", and my position is that you have written a lead which reflects and advocates for that view. That doesn't mean you are acting contrary to good faith, or that you are intentionally advocating, merely that that is my reading of what you have written. There is no lack of good faith on my part, either, in asking to dig into some of the apparently-pointed terms you have used, and asking where they came from.

(Please ignore this paragaph if you like, as it's a peripheral issue assuming that we can agree on the steps to take, as suggested below). I've read the entirety of Gant's 15 page preface, an excellent essay discussing the history of Christmas carols and the various meanings that have been attributed to the term over the centuries. I'm unable to find any reference in it at all to Ding Dong Merrily on High. If I have missed it, I will be the first to apologise, but it absolutely does not seem accurate to cite Gant in support of the statement that that carol is "falsely considered" to be a Christmas carol, especially when your argument was that that term is "used in the citations utilized". That single issue does suggest a need to check out some of the other citations. On the basis of my continuing concerns, I'm using the WP:BRD process to revert the lead to its previous form, of course without prejudice to a discussion of your text on this page. I agree that the existing lead is not good, and urgently needs improvement, but I'm afraid I'm unconvinced that your added paragraphs are a long-term improvement.

I take absolutely no stance on what the inclusion criterion should be, other than that it should be consensus-based (in short supply here, I know) and that it should preferably be short and easy for potential editors to understand. There have been many discussions of inclusion criteria on this very page, going back to 2008, and you have yourself participated. You have vigorously taken one side of the discussion, and Walter Görlitz (currently blocked) has even more vigorously taken an opposing view. The multiple discussions that have taken place over the years have not resulted in any clear consensus as to what the inclusion criterion should be, and now would be a good time to settle this once and for all.

Your suggestion is certainly an option, but as I am sure you know there are wider definitions that ought equally to be discussed, such as the OED definition of "a religious song or popular hymn, typically of a joyful or lively character, which is traditionally sung at Christmas". What I'd like to see now is the collection of a list of possible 'definitions' that could form the basis of the inclusion criterion. When a suitable list of possibilities has been curated, then we should ask a wide range of editors to express their opinions on each. This could be by way of a formal RFC if needed, but before going that far it would be preferable to settle on the question or questions that are to be asked.

Here are some suggestions for possible inclusion in the list for discussion. We don't need to argue for or against any at this stage, simply collect them:

• "a religious song relating to the birth of Christ"
• [OED]: "a religious song or popular hymn, typically of a joyful or lively character, which is traditionally sung at Christmas"
• [Merriam Webster]: "a song sung during the Christmas season"
• "a Christmas song on a religious theme"
• "a song collected in a [or in perhaps more than one] printed Christmas carol collection"

I hope that helps as a plan for a way forward. MichaelMaggs (talk) 17:18, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Excellent analysis; sounds great to me. I'll be interested in CAROLS .!. -_- AstroU (talk) 00:41, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I have been unavailable until today. There's really a simpler solution than arguing about what does and does not constitute a carol: we simply move this article to a different title. While I agree with MichaelMaggs' suggestions, it's also very simple to change the location of this article to something "list of Christmas carols and songs". Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:55, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

And if we keep it at this title, we should use what current sources commonly call a carol could be included, whether it meets a traditional definition of one or not. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:57, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

I support changing the title of the article to "List of Christmas Songs" (see my original rationale in the discussion of "Jingle Bells, above). This would accomplish at least three things:

1) It would stop (most of) the endless bickering over what constitutes a "carol" as opposed to a "song";

2) It would result in a list that is far more useful to the general public, whereas a list of strictly carols would be primarily useful to a small subset of academics and fanatics;

3) You cuold have the best of both worlds -- a list of Christmas songs would necessarily include the carols, and carols on the list could be indicated by an asterisk or other appropriate flag.

I say go for it; change the title.

74.95.43.253 (talk) 23:42, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

That too would be unnecessarily restrictive. It is clearly a list of Christmas carols and songs and so there is no reason to have the title be something other than "list of Christmas carols and songs". Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:28, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

O Come, O Come, Emmanuel

The above advent chant is neither a carol nor strictly Christmas. Should it really be on this list and should this list be linked from it? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 12:48, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Not seeing a mention on the page that it is a carol (although it is also listed as a Christmas carol in the categories). I removed the addition on its page until it is determined if it is a carol or not. Others here may know if it is used as a carol. Thanks for questioning the edit. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:53, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

The version of 02:15, 2 December 2006 by EdGl characterised it as a carol and added the category. All references to it being a carol were stripped out at 20:56, 4 January 2007 by an IP user, but one who clearly knew haw to edit properly and who was cognisant with liturgical matters. I'm going to be WP:BOLD and both remove the category and the mention in this article. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 14:27, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

It's included in Carols for Choirs (volume 2) so David Willcocks, at least, considered it a carol; but indeed it's for Advent rather than Christmas. On balance, I'd have given it a pass, but since you've already removed it, let's go with that. Angusta (talk) 14:38, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

The article O Come, O Come, Emmanuel says it's "also often classed as a Christmas carol" and cites three sources, just to point out, but it really doesn't matter to me what the outcome of this is. But I do appreciate the ping, Martin of Sheffield ~EdGl talk 02:18, 6 December 2022 (UTC)