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[[Category:Wikipedia help pages with dated sections]]
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= December 11 =▼
 
== Shopping carts ==
 
Where were the first shopping carts introduced?
*[[shopping cart]] and [[Sylvan Goldman]] say the Humpty Dumpty chain
*[[Piggly Wiggly]] says the Piggly Wiggly chain and quotes the Harvard Business Review
Both articles agree it was in 1937 in Oklaholma. I believe that Humpty Dumpty is more likely, but some high quality sources would be useful. [[User:TSventon|TSventon]] ([[User talk:TSventon|talk]]) 11:55, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
 
:It seems to be a matter of some dispute, but [https://sova.si.edu/record/nmah.ac.0739 ''Guide to the Telescoping Shopping Cart Collection, 1946-1983, 2000''] by the Smithsonian Institution has the complex details of the dispute between Sylvan Goldman [of Humpty Dumpty] and [[Orla Watson]]. No mention of Piggly Wiggly, but our article on Watson notes that in 1946, he donated the first models of his cart to 10 grocery stores in Kansas City.
:[https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WBH3rhiWsm4C&pg=PA205 ''The Illustrated History of American Military Commissaries'' (p. 205)] has both Watson and Goldman introducing their carts in 1947 (this may refer to carts that telescope into each other for storage, a feature apparently lacking in Goldman's first model).
:[https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JCUwEQAAQBAJ&pg=PT17 ''Scalable Innovation: A Guide for Inventors, Entrepreneurs, and IP Professionals''] says that Goldman's first cart was introduced to Humpty Dumty in 1937.
:Make of that what you will. [[User:Alansplodge|Alansplodge]] ([[User talk:Alansplodge|talk]]) 13:30, 11 December 2024 (UTC)▼
::Absolutely. I remember that the power lift arrangement mentioned in the Smithsonian's link was still an object of analysis for would-be inventors in the mid-sixties, and possibly later, even though the soon to be ubiquituous checkout counter conveyor belt was very much ready making it unnecessary. Couldn't help curiously but think about those when learning about [[Bredt's rule]] at school later, see my user page, but it's true "Bredt" sounded rather like "Bread" in my imagination. --[[User:Askedonty|Askedonty]] ([[User talk:Askedonty|talk]]) 15:33, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
:On Newspapers.com (pay site), I'm seeing shopping carts referenced in Portland, Oregon in 1935 or earlier, and occasionally illustrated, at a store called the Public Market; and as far as the term itself is concerned, it goes back to at least the 1850s. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 15:18, 11 December 2024 (UTC)▼
::But perhaps referring to a cart brought by the shopper to carry goods home with, rather than one provided by the storekeeper for use in-store? [[User:Alansplodge|Alansplodge]] ([[User talk:Alansplodge|talk]]) 16:14, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
 
{{ping|Alansplodge|Askedonty|Baseball Bugs}} thank you for your help, it seems that the Harvard Business Review is mistaken and the Piggly Wiggly chain did not introduce the first shopping baskets, which answers my question. The shopping cart article references a [https://www.csi.minesparis.psl.eu/working-papers/WP/WP_CSI_006.pdf paper by Catherine Grandclément], which shows that several companies were selling early shopping carts in 1937, so crediting Sylvan Goldman alone is not the whole story. [[User:TSventon|TSventon]] ([[User talk:TSventon|talk]]) 17:22, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
 
== Lilacs/flowers re: Allies in Europe WWII ==
 
At 53:20 in [[Dunkirk (1958 film)]], British soldiers talk about [paraphrasing] 'flowers on the way into Belgium, raspberries on the way out', and specifically reference lilacs. I imagine this was very clear to 1958 audiences, but what is the significance of lilacs? Is it/was it a symbol of Belgium? [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 21:40, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
:I think it's just that the BEF [[Operation David|entered Belgium]] in the Spring, which is lilac time. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 22:04, 11 December 2024 (UTC)▼
:There are contemporary reports of the streets being strewn with lilac blossom. See [https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/75930659/7411364 here] "Today the troops crossed the frontier along roads strewn with flowers. Belgian girls, wildly enthusiastic, plucked lilac from the wayside and scattered it along the road to be torn and twisted by the mighty wheels of the mechanised forces." [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 22:26, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
::Ah! That would explain it, thanks! [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 16:14, 13 December 2024 (UTC)▼
 
= December 12 =
 
== The USA adding a new state ==
 
If my understanding is correct, the following numbers are valid at present: (a) number of Senators = 100; (b) number of Representatives = 435; (c) number of electors in the Electoral College = 538. If the USA were to add a new state, what would happen to these numbers? Thank you. [[Special:Contributions/32.209.69.24|32.209.69.24]] ([[User talk:32.209.69.24|talk]]) 06:30, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
:The number of senators would increase by 2, and the number of representatives would probably increase by at least 1. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 09:23, 12 December 2024 (UTC)▼
::Thus, to answer the final question, the minimum number of Electors would be 3… more if the new state has more Representatives (based on population). [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 13:54, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
:In the short term, there would be extra people in congress. The [[86th United States Congress]] had 437 representatives, because Alaska and Hawaii were granted one upon entry regardless of the apportionment rules. Things were smoothed down to 435 at the next census, two congresses later. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] ([[User talk:Golbez|talk]]) 14:58, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
 
Thanks. Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Let me re-phrase my question. (a) The number of Senators is always 2 per State, correct? (b) The number of Representatives is what? Is it "capped" at 435 ... or does it increase a little bit? (c) The number of Electors (per State) is simply a function of "a" + "b" (per State), correct? Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/32.209.69.24|32.209.69.24]] ([[User talk:32.209.69.24|talk]]) 21:12, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
:As I understand it, it is indeed capped at 435, though Golbez brings up a point I hadn't taken into account -- apparently it can go up temporarily when states are added, until the next reapportionment. --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 21:21, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
:{{br}}I suggest that (b) would probably depend on whether the hypothetical new state was made up of territory previously part of one or more existing states, or territory not previously part of any existing state. And I suspect that the eventual result would not depend on any pre-calculable formula, but on cut-throat horsetrading between the two main parties and other interested bodies. {The poster formerly nown as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/94.1.211.243|94.1.211.243]] ([[User talk:94.1.211.243|talk]]) 21:21, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
::Nope, it's capped at 435. See [[Reapportionment Act of 1929]]. (I had thought it was fixed in the Constitution itself, but apparently not.) --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 21:23, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
:::The Constitution has a much higher cap, currently around eleven thousand. [[User:Tamfang|—Tamfang]] ([[User talk:Tamfang|talk]]) 20:09, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:Oh, one other refinement. The formula you've given for number of electors is correct, for states. But it leaves out the [[District of Columbia]], which gets as many electors as it would get if it were a state, but never <s>less</s> <u>more</u> than those apportioned to the smallest state. In practice that means DC gets three electors. That's why the total is 538 instead of 535. --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 21:58, 12 December 2024 (UTC) <small>Oops; I remembered the bit about the smallest state wrong. It's actually never ''more'' than the smallest state. Doesn't matter in practice; still works out to 3 electors for the foreseeable future, either way, because DC would get 3 electors if it were a state, and the least populous state gets 3. --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 23:23, 12 December 2024 (UTC) </small>
 
= December 13 =
Line 360 ⟶ 317:
 
::Has anyone checked the Gale ''Picture Post'' archive for October 1940?[https://www.gale.com/c/picture-post-historical-archive] I don't have access to it. [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas|talk]]) 22:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
▲:I::{{re|Viriditas}} thinkYou it'smight justfind thatsomeone the BEFat [[Operation David|entered BelgiumWP:RX]] in the Spring, which is lilac time. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 2201:0427, 1128 December 2024 (UTC)
▲::Ah! That would explain::Will itlook, thanks!. [[User:ValereeeViriditas|ValereeeViriditas]] ([[User talk:ValereeeViriditas|talk]]) 1601:1433, 1328 December 2024 (UTC)
 
Update: The NYT indirectly refers to the photo in the abstract several days after it was initially published in October 1940.[https://archive.org/details/sim_new-york-times_1940-10-13_90_30213/page/n71/mode/2up?q=milkman] I posed the problem to ChatGPT which went through all the possible scenarios to explain its unusual absence in the historical record. It could find no good reason why the photo seems to have disappeared from the papers of the time. [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas|talk]]) 00:33, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
 
:Interestingly, [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Report/jr5OAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0&bsq=london%20milkman this] 1942 report by a New York scientific organization indicates that the image (or the story) was discussed in the NY papers. [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas|talk]]) 01:01, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
 
:I did find a suggestion somewhere that the picture was one of a pair with a postman collecting from a pillar box, with the title "The milk comes... and the post goes". Now THAT I ''have'' been able to track down. It appears on [https://archive.org/details/frontline1940/page/57/mode/2up page 57] of ''Front Line 1940-1941. The Official Story of the Civil Defence of Britain'' published by the Ministry of Information in 1942. It's clearly not the same photo, or even the same session, but expresses the same idea. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 01:38, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
▲:Make:Yes, of that whatthank you will. [[User:AlansplodgeViriditas|AlansplodgeViriditas]] ([[User talk:AlansplodgeViriditas|talk]]) 1301:3043, 1128 December 2024 (UTC)
 
== Belgia, the Netherlands, to a 16th c. Englishman? ==
Line 415 ⟶ 381:
 
:In the old style of dynastic reckoning, Elizabeth II would have been transitional from Saxe-Coburg to Glucksberg, and even under the current UK rules, descendants of Prince Philip (and only those descendants) who need surnames use [[Mountbatten-Windsor]]. -- [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 14:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
:In hyphenated dynasty names, the elements are typically not father and mother but stem and branch: ''Saxe-Weimar'' was the branch of the Saxon dukes whose apanage included the city of Weimar, ''Bourbon-Parma'' the branch of Bourbon (or Bourbon-Anjou) that included dukes of Parma. [[User:Tamfang|—Tamfang]] ([[User talk:Tamfang|talk]]) 03:48, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
 
= December 25 =
Line 484 ⟶ 451:
 
Isn't this one of those "crystal ball" things we are supposed to avoid here? - [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] &#124; [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 21:40, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
 
:{{agree}} [[User:Slowking Man|Slowking Man]] ([[User talk:Slowking Man|talk]]) 00:37, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
::If the OP provided an actual source for this claim, then it could be discussed more concretely. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 00:40, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
:::It is not a claim, but a question, "What is being said now about the prospects and form of a Trump-brokered peace treaty?" Should the OP provide a source for this question? If the question is hard to answer, it is not by lack of sources (I gave one above), but because all kinds of folks are saying all kinds of things about it. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 19:27, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
 
== ID card replacement ==
Line 494 ⟶ 465:
 
My mom is elderly, doesn't drive, doesn't handle travel or waiting in line well, and needs a replacement ID card. I'm wondering why this discrepancy exists in the replacement process. Not looking for legal advice etc. but am just wondering if I'm overlooking something sane, rather than reflexive [[system justification]]. Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:DA2D|2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:DA2D]] ([[User talk:2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:DA2D|talk]]) 19:39, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
 
:European (Brit) here, so responding with logic rather than knowledge, but . . . . If a replacement ID could be requested remotely and sent, it would probably be easier for some nefarious person to do so and obtain a fake ID; at least if attendance is required, the officials can tell that the 25-y-o illegal immigrant (say) they're seeing in front of them doesn't match the photo they already have of the elderly lady whose 'replacement' ID is being requested.
:Drivers' licences have the additional safeguard that drivers are occasionally (often?) stopped by traffic police and asked to produce them, at which point discrepancies may be evident. {The poster formerly known as 87.812.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/94.1.223.204|94.1.223.204]] ([[User talk:94.1.223.204|talk]]) 00:30, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
::Thanks, I guess there is some sense to that, though I haven't been stopped by police in quite a few years. I reached the DMV by phone and they say they won't issue an actual duplicate ID card: rather, they want to take a new picture of my mom and use that on the new card. Of course that's fine given that we have to go there anyway, but it's another way the DL procedure is different. [[Special:Contributions/2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:DA2D|2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:DA2D]] ([[User talk:2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:DA2D|talk]]) 00:46, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
▲:The::What numberpurpose of senators would increase by 2, anddoes the numberID ofcard representatives would probably increase by at least 1.serve? ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 0904:2327, 1227 December 2024 (UTC)
::::See [[Identity documents in the United States]]. These cards can be used for such purposes as boarding a plane, purchasing alcohol or cigarettes where proof of age is required, cashing a check, etc. Most folks use their driver's license for these purposes, but for the minority that does not drive, some form of official id is required from time to time, hence the delivery of such cards by states. --[[User:Xuxl|Xuxl]] ([[User talk:Xuxl|talk]]) 13:34, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
▲:On Newspapers.com (pay site), ::::I'm seeingjust shoppingwondering cartsunder referencedwhat incircumstances Portland, Oregona shut-in 1935would orever earlier, and occasionally illustrated, at a store called the Public Market; and as far as the term itself is concerned,use it. goes back toThe atOP leastcould themaybe 1850sexplain. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 1521:1852, 1127 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::OP did not describe a "shut-in". And anyway, have you ever heard the well-known phrase-or-saying "none of your fucking business"? [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 21:59, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Are you the OP? ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 22:46, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Not OP and not a shut-in, but ID is necessary for registration for some online services (including ID requirements for access to some state and federal websites that administer things like taxes and certain benefits). I've had to provide photos/scans of photo ID digitally for a couple other purposes, too, though I can't remember off the top of my head what those were. I think one might have been to verify an I-9 form for employment. And the ID number from my driver's license for others. At least a couple instances have been with private entities rather than governments. The security implications always make me wary. -- [[User:Avocado|Avocado]] ([[User talk:Avocado|talk]]) 23:05, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
:Unless someone affiliated with the CA DMV drops by here, I'm afraid none of us are going to be able to tell you why something is the way it is with them. Essentially it's requesting people to guess or predict at why X ''might'' be the case. Have you tried [https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/contacting-dmv/ contacting them] and asking them for an answer? You and/or her could also [https://findyourrep.legislature.ca.gov/ contact] her CA state elected representatives and let them know your feelings on the matter. Sometimes representatives' offices will assist a constitutent with issues they're having involving government services ("constitutent services"). --[[User:Slowking Man|Slowking Man]] ([[User talk:Slowking Man|talk]]) 01:43, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
:If your mom is old and her medical condition affects her ability to perform daily activities (she couldn't handle the travel or waiting in line well), she can ask her medical doctor to complete a DS 3234 (Medical Certification) form to verify her status. Then you can help her to fill out a DS 3235 application form on the DMV website and submit the required documents accordingly. [[User:Stanleykswong|Stanleykswong]] ([[User talk:Stanleykswong|talk]]) 09:14, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
 
= December 27 =
 
== Building containing candle cabinets ==
 
Is there a term (in pretty much any language) for a separate building next to a church, containing candle cabinets where people place votive candles? I've seen this mostly in Romania (and in at least one church in Catalonia), but suspect it is more widespread. (I've also seen just candle cabinets with no separate building, but I'm guessing that there is no term for that.) - [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] &#124; [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 01:40, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
 
:[[Shrine]] ''might'' cover it, but I suspect there's a more specific term in at least one language. {The poster fornerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/94.1.223.204|94.1.223.204]] ([[User talk:94.1.223.204|talk]]) 21:49, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
 
▲= December 1128 =
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