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== Vandalism ==
 
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You are vandalising [[Peter Norman]]. Stop vandalising, it's spectacularly stupid. [[Special:Contributions/148.122.187.2|148.122.187.2]] ([[User talk:148.122.187.2|talk]]) 14:19, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
 
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I would not have known anything about it otherwise. The discussion caused me to comment at one or two other CFD's that I see you also commented on. (see? the category has already fostered collaboration!) God I hate this place sometimes. --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 23:25, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 
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== Ice cream headache requested move ==
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See my reason for support and my reply to In ictu oculi. [[User:Thinker78|Thinker78]] ([[User talk:Thinker78|talk]]) 04:51, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
 
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I've seen you editing recently and you seem knowledgeable about Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. <br />
Would you please consider becoming a [[Wikipedia:New pages patrol/Reviewers|New Page Reviewer]]? Reviewing/patrolling a page doesn't take much time but <u>it requires a good understanding of Wikipedia policies and guidelines</u>; currently Wikipedia needs experienced users at this task. (After gaining the flag, patrolling is not mandatory. One can do it at their convenience). But kindly read [[Wikipedia:New pages patrol|the tutorial]] before making your decision. Thanks. — '''''<small>[[User:Insertcleverphrasehere|Insertcleverphrasehere]] <sup>([[User talk:Insertcleverphrasehere|or here]])</sup></small>''''' 09:29, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
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:{{ping|Insertcleverphrasehere}} (Belated) thanks for the invitation, but I'll think I'll pass – as I've never felt an inclination to perform NPP for my years of tenure, I don't think I ever will. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 11:00, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
::No worries, it isn't for everyone. — '''''<small>[[User:Insertcleverphrasehere|Insertcleverphrasehere]] <sup>([[User talk:Insertcleverphrasehere|or here]])</sup></small>''''' 11:01, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
 
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== Brine ==
 
Hello,
Hi, I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. Surely a table of freezing points belongs in a section discussing its use as a refrigerant? [[Saline water]] doesn't seems like a good fit, as the table mostly concerns concentrations which would be classed as brine.--[[User:Project Osprey|Project Osprey]] ([[User talk:Project Osprey|talk]]) 08:57, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
:{{u|Project Osprey}}: On principle, I'm against [[WP:REDUNDANTFORK]]s. Physical properties of all concentrations of saline waters are given in, um, [[saline water]]. [[Brine#Refrigerating fluid]] article explains the physical process (sort-of, should be made clearer) but I don't think reader's understanding is enhanced with a large table of salt water's physical properties. If needed for explanation, [[saline water#properties]] can be simply linked from the relevant sentence (I can't even locate an appropriate one at the moment). [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 09:35, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 
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[[mw:Special:MyLanguage/Wikimedia Research|WMF Research Team]]
As I said a month ago or so, I'm working on the articles. See [[User:Mr_KEBAB/VPAS]]. Obviously, it's far from complete. [[User:Mr KEBAB|Mr KEBAB]] ([[User talk:Mr KEBAB|talk]]) 09:29, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
 
<bdi lang="en" dir="ltr">[[User:BGerdemann (WMF)|BGerdemann (WMF)]] ([[User talk:BGerdemann (WMF)|talk]]) 19:29, 23 October 2024 (UTC) </bdi>
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==Serbia waterpolo team==
FINA considers Serbia to be inheritor of both SFRJ and SCG results. This document is evidence https://www.fina.org/sites/default/files/final_histofina_wp_2016_0.pdf. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Gagibgd|Gagibgd]] ([[User talk:Gagibgd#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Gagibgd|contribs]]) </small>
:Results can't be inherited, you should actually read that source. --[[User:Pelmeen10|Pelmeen10]] ([[User talk:Pelmeen10|talk]]) 18:01, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
:Actually that document list results for YUG until 2003, SCG from 2003 till 2006 and SRB after that. Similarly TCH results are still credited as TCH results.[[User:Tvx1|T]][[User Talk:Tvx1|v]][[Special:Contributions/Tvx1|x]]1 23:05, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
 
==Yugoslavia==
The Yugoslavia name has been carried out by both SFR Yugoslavia and FR Yugoslavia. --[[User:Pelmeen10|Pelmeen10]] ([[User talk:Pelmeen10|talk]]) 18:01, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
:And by the Kingdom of Yugoslavia actually.[[User:Tvx1|T]][[User Talk:Tvx1|v]][[Special:Contributions/Tvx1|x]]1 23:06, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
 
==Italian place names==
A few days have passed since my last reply to you ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ADolc%C3%A8&action=historysubmit&type=revision&diff=827194038&oldid=827117868]), I'd like you to read it and tell me what your thoughts about my last linguistic argumentation. [[Special:Contributions/151.48.215.96|151.48.215.96]] ([[User talk:151.48.215.96|talk]]) 08:01, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
 
The page about Baselga di Piné was correctly renamed. Could you please move the other one, Ruffré-Mendola, please? The page in it.wikipedia has already been moved, which means that consensus was reached in the Italian wiki about this Italian name, exactly as for Piné, and other wikis moved both pages too. Even Google Maps spells it Ruffré, as it does for Piné. And let's not forget the 2 noted Italian orthography and pronunciation dictionaries, DOP and DiPI, which agree with the acute accent spelling. There's no reason not to move this page, overall after moving Piné, as far as I can see... [[Special:Contributions/151.48.215.96|151.48.215.96]] ([[User talk:151.48.215.96|talk]]) 15:00, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
 
== [[Islanding]] ==
 
I thought you might want to know that I requested revision deletion of the copyright violations you removed. <sub style="border:2.5px solid #16872C;padding:1.3px;">[[User:Vermont|<span style="color:#000000;background:#ffffff;">Vermont</span>]] &#124;[[User talk:Vermont|<span style="color:#000000;background:#ffffff;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 00:22, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
 
== An unusual request ==
 
Hi. I have a query related to languages. I could have posted it at [[WP:RDL]], where you've answered my queries a few times so far, but for personal reasons I prefer this one not to be public. Given your areas of expertise, I think you'll maybe have some idea about how to help me, or know who might have.
 
Could you please give me the chance to contact you via email? If you specify an email in your settings and [[Special:EmailUser/Theurgist|mail me]], I'll mail you back. It needn't be your "regular" email; you could just make one for this purpose only, and then remove it from your settings.
 
I realize this is a bizarre request. Feel free to decline it, ignore it, and even delete it from your talk page. Still, I would be grateful if you responded. --[[User:Theurgist|Theurgist]] ([[User talk:Theurgist|talk]]) 09:39, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
 
:Cheers {{u|Theurgist}}. You got mail. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 10:48, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
 
== Renaming discussion ==
 
I'd love to get your opinion on this discussion: [[Talk:Green Park tube station bombing]]. --[[User:Gateshead001|Gateshead001]] ([[User talk:Gateshead001|talk]]) 23:57, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
 
== Closing decision ==
 
No such user, I'm sorry but am not convinced in regard to your close at [[Talk:Die, Monster, Die#Requested move 17 May 2018]]. Whether or not my oppose !vote to rename to the native-language title is convincing, I think the oppose rationales carried more weight than you seem to think. It's possible that the outcome should have been "no consensus" and the page should not have been renamed to "Murder Me, Monster". So I ask at this time that you reconsider your close. &nbsp;'''''[[User:Painius|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine&nbsp;Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small>&nbsp;&nbsp;[[User talk:Painius|<sup>put'r&nbsp;there</sup>]]&nbsp;</small>&nbsp;<small>14:27, 14 June 2018 (UTC)</small>
:[[User:Painius|Painius]]: I don't see that anyone agreed with your position. The film ''has'' an official translation ("Murder Me, Monster"), as issued by its very producers and distributors, it is commonly referred in English-language media under that title, and, for God's sake, it's the title that can be seen at the ''theatrical poster'' in the infobox. The nominator provided quite a number of English RS using the proposed title. [[WP:NCFILM]] provisions for native titles apply only to films that have never seen a significant English coverage, and this one has. Please see [[WP:NCFILM#Examples]]–none of the exceptions ([[Bande à part (film)]], [[Ran (film)]]) applies here. Finally, I'll point out that it's all based on the [[WP:UE]] policy: {{tq|In deciding whether and how to translate a foreign name into English, follow English-language usage. If there is no established English-language treatment for a name...}} but we do have one here. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 14:44, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
::As I said, whether or not my arg was convincing, I think the opposing args were, as a whole, weighty enough to challenge what the supporting args set forth. This should have led to a "no consensus" outcome, and the page should not have been moved. In regard to your arg above, while it seems convincing, it is by no means completely accurate. There has been no evidence produced that this film has ever been released in English-speaking countries under ''any'' English title. At the very least, the title from which you moved the page, "Die, Monster, Die", is a direct translation, and the title to which you moved the page, "Murder Me, Monster", is a "variant English translation" and is covered clearly by the film guideline. At the very least, there should have been a "no consensus" outcome, and the page should retain its direct English translation. Would you be okay with a new RM to request that the page be retitled to its native-language title? &nbsp;'''''[[User:Painius|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine&nbsp;Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small>&nbsp;&nbsp;[[User talk:Painius|<sup>put'r&nbsp;there</sup>]]&nbsp;</small>&nbsp;<small>14:57, 14 June 2018 (UTC)</small>
:::Opposes from Lugnuts and ONR were based on apparent misconception that both titles (''Die, Monster, Die'' and ''Murder Me, Monster'') were in equal circulation in English, but they were refuted by the point that the former was based on an early Cannes festival webpage that has been superseded since. The list of some 15 sources in the nomination using the proposed title has not been refuted by anyone.<br>As for opening a fresh RM, you're certainly entitled to it. But I don't think that your apparent interpretation of [[WP:NCFILM]] that the film ''must'' have an English theatrical release (it's barely a month since it was released in home market, after all) to have a English translated title holds closer scrutiny; the criterion is {{tq|more commonly recognized by English readers}}, and the film has seen a fair deal of English-language coverage so far, so that we can say that one is established. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 15:14, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
::::We'll have to agree to disagree on the film guideline, which expressly states that if the film has not been released in English-speaking countries, then the native-language title is preferred over any and all variant translations. Thank you for allowing a new RM, and would you be kind enough to add that to your closing statement? &nbsp;'''''[[User:Painius|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine&nbsp;Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small>&nbsp;&nbsp;[[User talk:Painius|<sup>put'r&nbsp;there</sup>]]&nbsp;</small>&nbsp;<small>15:42, 14 June 2018 (UTC)</small>
::::Just had a thought based upon what you said about "(it's barely a month since it was released in home market, after all)". Your closing sentence was "It has been reasonably demonstrated that 'Murder Me, Monster' eventually emerged as the most common one." So I wonder how after only a month, any English variant translation could possibly emerge as more common than the film's Spanish language release title, ''Muere, Monstruo, Muere''? As you say, it's only been barely a month, after all. &nbsp;'''''[[User:Painius|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine&nbsp;Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small>&nbsp;&nbsp;[[User talk:Painius|<sup>put'r&nbsp;there</sup>]]&nbsp;</small>&nbsp;<small>19:32, 14 June 2018 (UTC)</small>
:::::Painius, please see the evidence for yourself in the RM nomination. The film was shown in the Cannes festival, which makes it notable in the first place. We have 12 (fifteen) English-language references, produced by Film Fan, mostly reviews and the festival coverage, and several producer websites, all using the ''Monster'' title in English. That makes it a pretty open and shut case. I'm really at loss how you fail to even acknowledge that evidence, let alone address it. If you want, open that RM, or start a MR, you don't need my blessing, but I don't think we should discuss this further here. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 19:43, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
::::::Forgive me, because I certainly mean no harm. Mainly, I just don't understand why the guideline seems unclear to editors. No amount of coverage in English reliable sources under variant English titles is as important as the Spanish title under which it was released – no amount. That's what the guideline "guides" us to do. And that guideline represents the consensus of our community. While I still disagree that there was consensus to move, I do not plan an MRV at this time. I think I'll wait awhile on the RM, as well. This will be my last response to you on this matter. Again, I never meant to close you off to further discussion, very sorry for that! &nbsp;'''''[[User:Painius|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine&nbsp;Ellsworth</span>]]'''''<small>&nbsp;&nbsp;[[User talk:Painius|<sup>put'r&nbsp;there</sup>]]&nbsp;</small>&nbsp;<small>19:54, 14 June 2018 (UTC)</small>
::::::'''PS.''' Just FYI, [[User talk:Film Fan|Film Fan]] has opened a discussion on the [[Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (films)#Problematic sentence in foreign film titles section|guideline's talk page]]. <small>PS added by &nbsp;'''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</span>]]'''''&nbsp;&nbsp;<small>20:53, 14 June 2018 (UTC)</small></small>
 
==Walls of Basel==
Merging the articles on the various gates into [[Walls of Basel]] has broken several InterWiki links, including but not limited to [[:wikidata:Q669522]], [[:wikidata:Q392077]], [[:wikidata:Q667144]] and [[:wikidata:Q381836]], making those articles in non-English Wikis effectively inaccessible from English Wiki. Those and other merges have also removed valid entries in categories like [[:Category:Gates in Switzerland]], [[:Category:Buildings and structures in Basel]], [[:Category:History of Basel]] and [[:Category:Cultural property of national significance in Basel-Stadt]]. You might wish to reconsider your recent actions. [[User:Narky Blert|Narky Blert]] ([[User talk:Narky Blert|talk]]) 19:54, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
:{{ping|Narky Blert}} I think that our duty first and foremost is to provide information to English Wikipedia readers in a succinct and most accessible manner. But having [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gate_of_Spalen&oldid=846366603 one] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gate_of_Saint_Alban&oldid=846369200 sentence] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gate_of_Spalen&oldid=846366603 articles] such as [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aeschentor&oldid=847480596 those] inviting the reader to visit them to find more information is much more reader-unfriendly than depriving them of interwiki links. While nice to have, having interwiki links is pretty low on the list of issues to consider, and it is AFAICT nowhere specified in our guidelines that we have duty to maintain the article structure as in other wikis (otherwise, nothing would ever get done); we aren't a database of cross-wiki mapping – wikidata is. Readers who speak German or Allemanisch and wish a better article than ours still can go to [[:de:Basler Stadtmauer]] and deep-dive from there.<br>As for having entries of those gates in appropriate categories, that is easily [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gate_of_Saint_John&type=revision&diff=851125227&oldid=850842642 fixable], but I'd rather move those to German-language redirects, which seem to be their common names. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 07:42, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
::You have raised several points.
#If one-line stubby unsourced articles are turned into redirects, those articles will never get written in English Wiki, no matter what exists in non-English Wikis. If there is a guideline, I don't know of it. Is there somewhere where we two can open a discussion and argue our opposing corners towards a [[WP:CONSENSUS]]? This is a very important Wiki issue indeed.
#In any event, your argument fails as regards [[Aeschenschwibbogen]]. That article was supported by four independent [[WP:RS]] sources, and was larger and better-referenced than either the Alemannisch or the German article. (Alemannisch isn't exactly difficult to understand, even when spoken.)
#I wholeheartedly agree that amateur translations of non-English placenames should be stamped upon, heavily and quickly. It looks as if this nonsense [[Talk:Aeschentor#Requested move 17 June 2018]] was created by a Wiki editor and has now escaped into the wild. [[User:Narky Blert|Narky Blert]] ([[User talk:Narky Blert|talk]]) 21:11, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
:::Sorry for late reply, I was away for the weekend.
::#I'm afraid I don't know about a more appropriate place for discussion of broader approach. For this case, as you know, there was a mention of a merger at Aeschentor RM, and Andrewa and I later had a brief merge discussion at [[Talk:Walls of Basel]], and after a month without opposition I decided to go for it. My general impression is that over the years requirements for a minimal article have gradually raised, as evidenced by stringent criteria at [[WP:AFC]] and Draft promotion, but I don't think there are any written rules. [[WP:STUB]] and [[WP:SUBSTUB]] essay only contain very broad guidance.<br>However, to counter your point to an extent, I will notice that all of those articles ({{la|Gate of Saint John}}, {{la|Gate of Steinen}} etc.) were created in 2006 by the same author in essentially the same sorry state as I found them before merging. I think that mere existence of a substub actually ''discourages'' proper article creation, much more so than a red link would. A potential author might think "oh, we do have an article about this, well, it's crap, but it's been vetted by someone", while a redlink might inspire someone to fill in an apparent void and claim a "creator trophy". Not having a <s>full</s> article on a landmark as prominent as [[Spalentor]] on en: is a shame, but I think it has to do with having a ''bad'' article there for so long time.
::#Kudos to you for writing [[Aeschenschwibbogen]], but it wasn't ''much'' larger than als: and de: counterparts. However, it was IMO a minimal reasonable article size, and if all the gate articles were written in a similar volume, I doubt anyone would think of merging them. However, I think my merge essentially carried over all the information (I only erased a sentence about someone being executed there sometime). I wouldn't mind you restoring it, as it basically fell victim to other articles' bad quality (why have more info on a small razed gate than on an existing and magnificent one)?
:::In sum, I think we should focus on providing ''quality information'' about the topics of interest rather than on the sheer number of articles espousing this information. Call me a [[m:Mergist]] if you like. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 09:49, 23 July 2018 (UTC) <small>[[User:Narky Blert|ping]] [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 09:59, 23 July 2018 (UTC)</small>
 
== "Spanish flu": inaccurate and offensive ==
 
Hi "no such user",
 
In the talk page of the [[1918 flu pandemic]], I have listed several reasons for opposing the requested move of the article to "Spanish flu". Happy to copy them here if necessary? I believe the opinions voiced were rather poorly argued. I don't dispute that there was a consensus, just that the debate leading to that consensus ignored most relevant aspects of the move.
 
I understand you are the closer of that vote and I need to raise this with you first? I'm slowly learning how this process works, so apologies if I didn't start this through the right channels.
 
Thank you for your time.
 
Cheers,
 
[[User:MiG-25|MiG-25]] ([[User talk:MiG-25|talk]]) 02:18, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
 
:Hi {{u|MiG-25}}. As you guessed, a closer's job is generally to assess consensus and weigh arguments based on applicable policies, not to impose a "supervote". In the debate, support for "[1918] Spanish [F/f]lu" was near-unanonimous, with only Amory dissenting, and supporters put forward evidence that "Spanish flu" is the common name indeed.
:I'll reply further on [[Talk:Spanish flu]] for greater transparency. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 08:52, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
 
:: Hi No Such User,
 
:: I don't know if you followed the discussion involving Rjensen and myself after your response on this topic. To sum up, firstly, the PubMed data used in the vote was incorrect: 1918 influenza is more common. Secondly, while "Spanish flu" is more common in both general and Google Book searches, the alternatives are not uncommon (General: ~700,000 for Spanish flu to ~400,000 for the addition of "1918 flu" and "1918 influenza"; similar ratio for Books). Finally, I believe I have provided plenty of evidence that "Spanish flu" is considered, at the very least, quite unfortunate in Spanish and medical and divulgation sources. These are at pains to emphasize that it is a misnomer or actively avoid or encourage avoiding such uses (CDC, WHO and The Conversation).
 
:: I fully understand and respect that you were simply interpreting what seemed to be a fairly clear result in favour of "Spanish flu". However, I would say evidence in support for change based on WP:COMMONNAME seems rather weak in light of the above. Examples often used as part of WP:COMMONNAME do not seem to compare easily to this case, which may also explain the problems in applying it.
 
:: I don't know if you would be the best person to re-open a vote/move vote review or whether I should do it. In any case, I would appreciate any guidance.
 
:: In closing and regardless of this debate, I would like to thank you very much for your time and express my true appreciation for your efforts in making this great project work. [[User:MiG-25|MiG-25]] ([[User talk:MiG-25|talk]]) 06:48, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
 
:::{{ping|MiG-25}} apologies for delayed response – vacation season. Thank you for your kind message.<br>At this point, I think the best way forward is that you start a new RM, and bring forward the new evidence. [[WP:Move Review]] usually focuses whether the RM ''procedure'' was correct, and would not overturn it solely based on new evidence. Thanks. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 11:28, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 
== Talk:Lewis ==
 
Hi No such user. I am unhappy with your close of the move discussion there. Can you please revisit it? Can you also please refrain from closing any more move discussions for the meantime? --[[User:John|John]] ([[User talk:John|talk]]) 10:53, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
:I'm disappointed you ignored my request. You are now on my radar as somebody who has incompetently closed move discussions. If I saw you do it again, I would raise your behaviour at a central discussion and it is likely you would receive a sanction. Please be more careful. --[[User:John|John]] ([[User talk:John|talk]]) 15:27, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
::Feel free, {{u|John}}. Can't say I'm impressed with ''your'' behavior though, as you chose intimidation and vague threats over policy- and argument-based discussion, but I'll leave any further comment for that "central discussion". [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 15:31, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
:::It's not a vague threat, it's a promise that since you [[WP:CIR|clearly do not understand]] how to evaluate consensus you should refrain from making any more poor judgements like the one we are talking about. --[[User:John|John]] ([[User talk:John|talk]]) 15:32, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
::::The close was good, and in fact the only available one. There was clear consensus, supported by evidence, that this is not the [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]], so moving it to some title was necessary. Per [[WP:THREEOUTCOMES]], this is the right thing to do. NSU even stated that a new RM could be held to hash out the best form of disambiguation. There's nothing at all out of process here. {{u|John}}, if you feel differently, you can take it to [[WP:MR|move review]], though it's very unlikely it would succeed, as the close was totally reasonable. I'd strongly advise against threatening people with "a sanction" for perfectly reasonable, kosher actions; that tends to [[WP:BOOMERANG]].--[[User:Cuchullain|Cúchullain]] [[User talk:Cuchullain|<sup>t</sup>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Cuchullain|<small>c</small>]] 20:19, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
== Kalyanasundaranar listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px|left]]
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect [[Kalyanasundaranar]]. Since you had some involvement with the ''Kalyanasundaranar'' redirect, you might want to participate in [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 August 14#Kalyanasundaranar|the redirect discussion]] if you have not already done so. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family: Papyrus">[[User:Kailash29792|<b style="color: black;">Kailash29792</b>]] [[User talk:Kailash29792|<span style="color: black;">(talk)</span>]] </span> 05:51, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 
==Move review for [[DC Vertigo]]==
An editor has asked for a [[Wikipedia:Move review#DC Vertigo|Move review]] of [[DC Vertigo]]. Because you closed the move discussion for this page, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the move review. <!-- This originally was from the template {{subst:MCRNote|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~ -->
(as discussed on [[Talk:DC Vertigo#Consensus?]]) –[[User:JasonAQuest|Jason A. Quest]] ([[User talk:JasonAQuest|talk]]) 18:39, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
 
== Please fix links ==
 
Now you have moved Kings Park, Western Australia which is both a place in it's own right and its actual name as well as subject to WA Government state legislation - to Kings Park, Perth can you fix all the associated pages, categories as well. There was no need to move is because of Glouster Park disambiguation which isnt a park but rather the name of a trotting venue. [[User:Gnangarra|Gnan]][[User_talk:Gnangarra|garra]] 11:32, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
:{{ping|Gnangarra}} – I made a [[WP:BOLD]] move and I'll be happy to revert it if anyone thinks it was inappropriate. It just seemed strange to me to disambiguate a city's central park by the name of the province – parks, streets, neighborhoods and like are typically dabbed by city name.<br>However, one way or another, I don't see there are any links to fix - all pages that used to link there still [[Special:Whatlinkshere/Kings Park, Perth]] still do; only the [[:Category:Kings Park, Western Australia]] is currently inconsistent with its main article.<br>I feel as if I'm missing something: do you object to my chosen title or do you think I broke something? [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 11:42, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
::since you have no problem I'll revert to the actual name. [[User:Gnangarra|Gnan]][[User_talk:Gnangarra|garra]] 12:13, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Gnangarra}} <s>You may need my assistance for that, the redirect is now "salted".</s> But still: I'd like to know why do you prefer the old name? Like I said, it's very odd to have a city park (or a city quarter, whatever) disambiguated by province name. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 12:31, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
::::: Being western Australia it does not necessarily fit to other country perspectives, unusual maybe elsewhere, accepted in western australia. Nothing odd from the perspective here. [[User:JarrahTree|JarrahTree]] 14:16, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
:::::: Yes its in the centre of Perth but it was separated from Perth when create it exists under its own state legislation as does the responsible organisation KPBGB, to protect the area from development it's effectively a National Park and excluded from all Perth Metropolitan area planning schemes. [[User:Gnangarra|Gnan]][[User_talk:Gnangarra|garra]] 15:06, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
:::::::But its legal status is the least concern how we name the articles. It is located in the heart of the city, and all the sources and guides treat it as part of Perth, not as a location somewhere within vast Western Australia. It's akin to renaming [[Hyde Park, London]] to [[Hyde Park, England]]. But OK, being past the [[WP:BRD]] cycle I preserve the right to start a requested move on the talk page, to seek broader consensus... if I get arsed to. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 15:16, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::Legal name = Official name, Primary topic/ DAB both use official name in preference when common name is in conflict with other topics. [[User:Gnangarra|Gnan]][[User_talk:Gnangarra|garra]] 15:21, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::{{Ping|Gnangarra}} [[Hyde Park, London]] is not at [[Hyde Park, England]] per [[WP:UKPLACE]] which specifies that 1, disambiguation is usually to county not country, 2 Hyde Park is unquestionably part of the urban settlement of [[London]] and 3, places within [[Greater London]] user Placename, London. [[Hagley Park, Worcestershire]] for example is at [[Hagley Park, Worcestershire]], not [[Hagley Park, England]]. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Red">talk</span>]]) 14:01, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::{{ping|Crouch, Swale}} dont why you are pinging me (I didnt raise the issue) or commenting here about Hyde Park in London as this discussion is about Western Australia though we too have [[Hyde Park, Perth]]. The issue was moving Kings Park , Western Australia to Kings Park, Perth which is a uniquely Western Australian issue as Kings Park while in the center of Perth isnt part of the Perth Metropolitan area but rather a place in its own right. [[User:Gnangarra|Gnan]][[User_talk:Gnangarra|garra]] 00:14, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
 
==My collages==
Ok, engleski mi je loš priznajem, ali ne znam u čemu je tvoj problem!? Kakve veze ima veličina slike? Slike su postavljene u odgovarajućoj veličini ali sam je ja menjao prilikom postavljanja slika u članke! Veličina je svuda bila 360px, ali sam negde stavio 500px što možda jeste preterano....! Ok nek ti bude, tebi jedinom smeta! Na Srpskoj vikipediji, ne vidim da nekom smeta! Makar biraj i postavljaj lepše slike! I ne nazivaj moje kolaže dečijim, please! Neću više ni postavljati slike na English wiki! Zeks127 (talk) 16:37, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
 
-Ako je tako onda ću posebno i specijalno za English Wikipedia napraviti kolaže sa maks. 6 slika, i dobro probrati i staviti najupečatljivije slike, iz svih značajnijih gradova u ovoj zemlji.... Ali to tek u narednih mesec dana! Ostavi barem Beograd, Novi Sad i Niš.... [[User:Zeks127|Zeks127]] ([[User talk:Zeks127|talk]]) 12:04, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
 
== ArbCom 2018 election voter message ==
 
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== Rotterdam (song) move review ==
 
Re: the move discussed [[Talk:Rotterdam (song)|here]].
 
Could you clarify your decision on closing/moving this page? The song's title (as listed on the album sleeve, single release, and all subsequent digital releases) is "Rotterdam (Or Anywhere)". "Rotterdam" is simply not the name of the song. I don't see how [[WP:COMMONNAME]] applies here - no other song names are truncated like this (e.g. [[Street Spirit (Fade Out)]]; [[It's the End of the World as We Know It (And I Feel Fine)]]). Am planning on opening a move review on this. [[User:Klock101|Klock101]] ([[User talk:Klock101|talk]]) 19:59, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
:{{u|Klock101}} I don't even recall that RM. However, it was a run-of-the-mill under-attended one, relisted a few times, where two experienced users suggested an alternative title, so the outcome was rather simple to determine, if not terribly decisive; it's not a closer's duty to go out of their way to check the evidence. Indeed, on a quick check, both refs in the article refer to the song as simply "Rotterdam" (unlike e.g. "Street Spirit (Fade Out)". I don't really care either way, but I'd suggest starting a new RM with fresh evidence, than going though MR. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 21:23, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
 
== DAB - consequently... ==
 
Based on your comment to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WHAAOE&diff=prev&oldid=840262988 the edit from May 2018], why don't you unlink all DAB pages from there? --[[User:CiaPan|CiaPan]] ([[User talk:CiaPan|talk]]) 13:18, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
 
== Re [https://en.wikipedia.org/?diff=902519306] ==
 
See [[WP:DIFFUSINGCONFLICT]]. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 04:07, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
 
== AN/I ==
 
I just want to thank you for your support at the AN/I discussion. I took the liberty of copying your comments onto my talk page for the benefit of anybody reading about the block in the future. [[User:Scolaire|Scolaire]] ([[User talk:Scolaire|talk]]) 09:27, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
:You're welcome [[User:Scolaire|Scolaire]]. I'm sad to see cowboy admin actions still running unfettered in year 2019. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 16:36, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
 
== Honey ==
 
Hello, No such user. What do you mean "just isn't idiomatic" with regards to what was previously added to [[Honey]]? The word "millennia" is the plural form of "millennium" which is a term for a thousand years. Because the phrase "thousands of years" perfectly fits the definition of "millennia," I think the word can be used. [[Special:Contributions/172.250.44.165|172.250.44.165]] ([[User talk:172.250.44.165|talk]]) 00:47, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
:Hello. Just because a word ''can'' be used does not mean that it ''should'' be used. Yes, "millennium" means the same as "thousand [of] years", but I don't think that it's as commonly used in [[collocation]] with "for". For me at least, "for millennia" does not sound as natural as "for thousands of years", i.e. it is not [[wikt:idiomatic]]. Now, I grant that the former has been used on Wikipedia [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=500&offset=1000&profile=default&search=%22for+millennia%22&advancedSearch-current={}&ns0=1 1,252] times, but a lot of it is in paleontology contexts, and the latter has been used [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=500&offset=1000&profile=default&search=%22for+thousands+of+years%22&advancedSearch-current={}&ns0=1 2,751] times. Anyway, this is a too trifle issue to have a dispute about. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 08:39, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 
== Ban discussion ==
 
You asked where the original ban discussion was. The only discussion is the first thing I linked in the section
[[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Dicklyon requests clarification or lifting of restrictions]]. Here: [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive277#Standard offer unblock request from Dicklyon]]. There was no ban proposed or discussed except a few comments there.
 
Please also see my comments at [[User talk:GoldenRing#Examples, background?]]. I'm happy to send details if you want to defend me. I won't wade in myself, but I hate to see hearsay and misinformation going un-countered. Thanks very much for what you've done already. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 14:39, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
:{{ping|Dicklyon}} I had seen and read the Archive 277 discussion, but some editors there obliquely referred to an earlier page move ban... Ah, I see, Ivanvector referenced it explicitly: [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive881#Dicklyon_and_mass_moves]]. While I intend to read it, I see that it resulted in a 6-months page move ban which expired in late 2015. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 15:06, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
::Yes, it expired before my unblock and was not renewed. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 18:19, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
 
== A survey to improve the community consultation outreach process ==
 
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The Wikimedia Foundation is seeking to improve the community consultation outreach process for Foundation policies, and we are interested in why you didn't participate [[:m:Office actions/Community consultation on partial and temporary office actions/09 2019|in a recent consultation]] that followed [[:en:WP:FRAM|a community discussion]] you’ve been part of.
 
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The [[WP:ARBCOM|Arbitration Committee]] is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration|Wikipedia arbitration process]]. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose [[WP:BAN|site bans]], [[WP:TBAN|topic bans]], editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy|arbitration policy]] describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
 
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== Continental Europe ==
 
Hello. As the article ([[Continental Europe]]) says already in the lead the Scandinavian peninsula isn't included in Continental Europe in some definitions of it, and that's what I learned when I went to school, people in Scandinavia also don't see their countries as part of the continent. Which makes my version of the text on [[Handball]], which doesn't mention Continental Europe at all, much less ambigious than the version [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Handball&oldid=prev&diff=935872483 you reverted to], whether one feels that Scandinavia is part of continental Europe or not. Cheers, -&nbsp;'''Tom'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User:Thomas.W|Thomas.W]] [[User talk:Thomas.W|'''''<sup><small> talk</small></sup>''''']] 08:51, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
:{{ping|Thomas.W}} Well, "continental Europe" was there for a purpose: in all definitions, it excludes British Isles, and UK and Ireland make up a significant percent of en.wiki readership, but the sport is virtually unknown there (and, for a long time, [[handball (disambiguation)]] had occupied the main title due to anglophone editors' ignorance). Thus, your "European" is arguably ''more'' ambiguous, since it includes significant countries (in readership sense) that don't have anything to do with handball.
:Frankly, as a southern European, this is the first time I hear that Scandinavia does not constitute "continental Europe" in some definitions, and our article mentions that only later, so I'm possibly somewhat biased. I'm not certain how widespread this is.
:Anyway, do you think that "mainland Europe" would work better? [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 09:37, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
::Since hardly anyone in the UK or Ireland (or any other major English-speaking country for that matter) has even heard of handball, and thus no one there is likely to believe that there is such a thing as a UK or Irish national team in the sport, there's very little risk that they would believe that either of those countries has won anything in that sport. Since English-speakers outside Europe also don't divide Europe into continental and non-continental we shouldn't either. -&nbsp;'''Tom'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User:Thomas.W|Thomas.W]] [[User talk:Thomas.W|'''''<sup><small> talk</small></sup>''''']] 09:48, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
 
== [[Roulettes]] ==
 
While I agree that there was consensus against moving the aerobatics meaning ''with a redirect'' to [[Roulette]]. There was surely no consensus on the issue of primary topic v having "Roulettes" redirect to [[Roulette (disambiguation)]] or its self be a DAB. Most of the arguments against were about the game being uncountable (which I noted at the beginning) but didn't really take into account the fact that curve and band are reasonable topics for this term. Yes at the end one of the opposers clarified their !vote but surely given the evidence I presented (Google and pageviews) showed that there is likely no primary topic for the plural. Would something like "There is '''consensus against''' redirecting to [[Roulette]] but '''no consensus''' on the issue of having "Roulettes" redirect to the DAB (or its self be one). Yes this was a complicated RM in that it involved both removing primacy from the aerobatics meaning ''and'' making the game primary where myself and several others supported the 1st but opposed the 2nd. [[WP:PLURALPT]] seems clear on this for example the [[Paper]] v [[Papers]] example and [[Orange]] v [[Oranges]] example. The alternative proposal of having no primary topic could certainly be brought up again (though I'd not recommend for a while given the RM was open for over a month) even though the one for having the game probably shouldn't per [[WP:NOTMOVED]], thanks. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 18:07, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 
:{{ping|Crouch, Swale}} I've re-read the debate and if anything, I see a consensus ''against'' redirecting [[Roulettes]] to [[Roulette (disambiguation)]]. I don't think this fits the paper(s)/orange(s) pattern from [[WP:PLURALPT]] at all – it's more akin to the Windows/Snickers pattern, and several posters expressed opinions to that effect: Station1 stated that {{tq|There's simply no problem here that requires any kind of solution}}; Andrew Davidson: {{tq| The display team is an active national institution which still performs over a hundred times each year}}; B2C: {{tq|Anyone searching with roulettes is likely seeking this article}}; Calidum: {{tq|this is a case where a reader searching for the plural form will undoubtedly be seeking this topic.}} There were other opinions of course, including Amakuru's and In Ictu Oculi's.<br>Anyway, I thought it would be best to not address that issue separately in the closing statement: it was not the central subject of the discussion, and there was a rather strong, if not overwhelming, opposition to move or redirect anything. For reopening of the PTOPIC debate, I would like to see some strong evidence that the current setup inconveniences many users. Until then, I think that [[WP:AINT]] makes a compelling case. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 07:22, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
::I don't think that there was much evidence presented to show that the Windows/Snickers example applies to ''[[Roulette (curve)]]''. Station1 mainly argued that no other article would be at the title and BHG in response noted {{tq|your objection is invalid. See WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT The fact that an article has a different title is not a factor in determining whether a topic is primary}} and IIO noted {{tq|BrownHairedGirl: you are wasting your time - Station1 has been disruptively opposing titling policy on endless RMs for years}}. Andrew Davidson does appear to have made a valid argument that by usage (and possibly long-term significance) this topic is the most likely but argued that someone looking for the curve would likely include that term to avoid the game which doesn't appear to make sense since as noted the plural form isn't really used for the game but ''is'' for the curve similar to the fact that to read about the fruit (and avoid the colour) someone might type "Oranges". The last 2 opposers didn't provide any evidence of this and again don't even address the curve meaning. I argued that "Roulette (curve) (which is a countable noun) which gets 947 views and The Roulettes that gets 401 views compared to 346 for this article" which suggests things are split and readers would simply be better of getting the DAB straight away and "Google results are mixed between the aerobatics and the band. Additionally the casino meaning shows up in ads at the bottom. Images mainly returns wheels (which doesn't appear to relate to an article here) and Books appears to be split between the casino and curve meanings." both of those arguments IMO do provide enough evidence that there is no clear primary topic for the plural form. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 08:39, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 
:::Apologies for delayed replying, RL issues.<br>The underlying argument of the opposers is that a user looking for the curve is unlikely to type "roulette'''s'''" in the search box. Yes, it is ''possible'' to use both the casino game and the curve in plural, and your evidence shows that, but their assertion (seemingly likely but not supported by evidence, which is hard to obtain) is that it's an unlikely search term for a Wikipedia entry about those topics.<br>Anyway, I don't think my close precluded a further discussion about the primary topic issue (although personally, I don't see much point, as the evidence that anyone is inconvenienced by the current setup is mostly anecdotal). [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 12:03, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 
==Affected by Zscaler block==
{{unblock reviewed | 1=Caught by an open proxy block but this host or IP is not an open proxy. My IP address is (probably) 165.225.206.110. (Blocked just minutes ago by [[User:Yamla]].) I've been using addresses in this range probably for a couple of years, it's not an open proxy (that I know of). I'm editing from my office, and my company apparently uses some Zscaler services hosted in Poland (I'm not located in Poland though). [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 10:40, 25 August 2020 (UTC) | decline = It isn't generally permitted to use proxies like Zscaler to edit Wikipedia. If you have a need to do so, please follow the instructions at [[WP:IPECPROXY]] to request an IP block exemption from a checkuser. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 11:05, 25 August 2020 (UTC)}}
 
Alright, I emailed checkuser-en-wp but haven't received even an acknowledgement of the request in two days.<br>
Researching a bit, I found [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_on_open_proxies#165.225.197.20]], where {{u|zzuuzz}} commented:
{{tq|This is a Zscaler IP. These are typically shared and dynamic, and used by large major corporations (for example AstraZeneca and Carlsberg Group), with lots of potential collateral. They aren't generally regarded as 'open'. ... but I'm not seeing a pressing need to block the rest of it}}. The 24 Aug block of [[Special:Contributions/165.225.192.0/18]] seems to have produced a lot of collateral, just based on good-faith anonymous contribs, let alone registered users. As outlined in [[Zscaler#SSL Traffic Considerations]], this is a security service used by a lot of companies, and is no different in effect than a dynamic range of a standard provider. Now, {{u|Yamla}} and others, would you please sort this mess out and reverse this block, or whatever? [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 10:31, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 
==Notice of noticeboard discussion==
[[File:Information icon4.svg|link=|25px|alt=Information icon]] There is currently a discussion at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard]] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.<!--Template:AN-notice-->
 
Specifically, [[WP:AN#zscaler_proxies]]. Ping me if you have any difficulty participating in that discussion! And again, thanks for raising the concern with me. --[[User:Yamla|Yamla]] ([[User talk:Yamla|talk]]) 21:03, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 
[[Category:Wikipedians with red-linked categories on their user talk page]]
 
== Closure of RM at Maria Kalesnikava ==
 
Hi No such user, thanks for taking the time to [[Talk:Maria_Kalesnikava#Requested move 7 September 2020|close the RM]]. In your closing statement, you seem to agree that "Maria Kolesnikova" is the most common name in reliable sources in English. You also mention her self-identification. However, [[WP:Commonname]] says {{tq|Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources)}}. According to [[WP:Commonname]], it is better to use the name in reliable sources even if the self-identified name is different. Do you agree with that? If not, do you think we should follow other policies or guidelines in this case? Thanks. [[User:Vpab15|Vpab15]] ([[User talk:Vpab15|talk]]) 15:15, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
* Yes, No such user, thank you for moving the page, but frankly, I don't understand why English Wikipedia prefers the Belarusian language over the Russian. Belarusian is barely spoken in Belarus, and, from what I know, you cannot even hear it in Minsk or other large cities. It's spoken mostly in villages, and reportedly not very well. Its situation is even worse than that of Irish in Ireland. Oh well, whatever. Best regards. P.S. They just published a new census, which shows that the number of native Russian speakers in Belarus has grown even further, and that of Belarusian speakers has decreased. [[User:Taurus Littrow|Taurus Littrow]] ([[User talk:Taurus Littrow|talk]]) 18:03, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
* Please note also that she uses the Belarusian surname (Kalesnikava) but the Russian first name, Mar'''i'''a (in Belarusian, it's Mar'''y'''a). Very confusing. [[User:Taurus Littrow|Taurus Littrow]] ([[User talk:Taurus Littrow|talk]]) 18:26, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 
::{{ping|Vpab15}} [[WP:CRITERIA]] and [[WP:COMMONNAME]] sections of [[WP:Article Titles]] both outline that the "best" title needs to balance out sometimes conflicting principles, e.g.: {{tq|When there is no single, obvious name that is demonstrably the most frequently used [...], editors should reach a consensus as to which title is best by considering these criteria directly.}} Even WP:COMMONNAME itself has a disclaimer that it is just a general principle, not an absolute rule: {{tq| When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.}} One of strong factors here was [[MOS:IDENTITY]], {{tq|When there is a discrepancy between the term most commonly used by reliable sources for a person or group and the term that person or group uses for themselves, use the term that is most commonly used by recent[f] reliable sources. If it is unclear which is most used, use the term that the person or group uses.}} So, there is a conflict between her apparently preferred transliteration, and the form that is most commonly used in sources (note, however, that her notability on the West is very recent). The majority of the participants in the debate stated that her preferred "Kalesnikava" form is also used by reliable sources, is not "wrong" in any sense, and does not hamper recognizability. Technically, we do not always close discussions solely based on majority votes, but I did not find a compelling reason to override it here.
::{{ping|Taurus Littrow}} I am aware that Russian is lingua franca in Belarus, and that status of Belarussian is comparable with [[Irish language]] in Ireland. I don't think that Wikipedia strongly prefers Belarus forms, but then I'm not following the situation too closely. My impression is that, although Belarusian generally has less social prestige than Russian, it is often used as the "national" language for things like place names, and by political activists. [[WP:BELARUSIANNAMES]] only states that the ''preferred'' transliteration is 1979 BGN/PCGN, but does not state when Belarusian is to be preferred over Russian. For established and/or personal names we generally prefer the established form over the BGN, if there's discrepancy. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 08:01, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 
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== British India ==
 
Who the heck are you to close a bogus discussion started by British irredentist promoters on Wikipedia and supported by editors who have a personal gripe against me. Do you know ''anything'' about Indian history? You don't. I will not only contest this decision but take it all the way to an independent expert evaluation if it comes to that. If you want to waste my time, so be it. Pathetic. [[User:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&amp;fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 13:34, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 
:Thank you for the kind words, [[User:Fowler&amp;fowler]]. [[WP:Move review]] is thataway. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 13:56, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 
== A barnstar for you! ==
 
{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | [[File:Original Barnstar Hires.png|100px]]
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Original Barnstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | You deserve this for your fine close of the move discussion on the [[British India]] article. Great job! [[User:LearnIndology|LearnIndology]] ([[User talk:LearnIndology|talk]]) 04:57, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
|}
 
== The Barnstar of Diplomacy ==
 
{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | [[File:Peace Barnstar Hires.png|100px]]
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Barnstar of Diplomacy'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Thank you for being reasonable, fair and compassionate in a very harsh environment. [[User:Zakaria1978|Zakaria1978 ښه راغلاست]] ([[User talk:Zakaria1978|talk]]) 05:12, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
|}
 
== Timor Leste ==
 
Thank you for your comment about...
 
The guiding policy here is WP:NAMECHANGES, " If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match." There was not exactly a "name change" here, but, as with Kiev Kyiv, the endonym "Timor Leste" seems to be gaining traction post-independence in English.
 
I also call your attention to when you comment on buide's NGRAM. That is only a measure of books, which are usually years behind TV, internet, and news reports.
 
So it seems that, according to your statement, it is very possible that someday this traction will exceed the threshold. Also, thanks for the examples to use.
 
I am a little concerned about consensus. When the majority of the use is Timor Leste, that should be the time to change. The people's view will always be behind. It is possible that even decades later, 35-40% may be old fashioned and that could be used as evidence of "no consensus". Solutions? [[User:Vowvo|Vowvo]] ([[User talk:Vowvo|talk]]) 18:45, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 
:{{ping|Vowvo}} Re consensus: from [[WP:Consensus#Determining consensus]]: {{tq|Consensus is ascertained by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy.}} and from [[WP:!VOTE]]: {{tq|"!voting" is a reminder and affirmation that the writer's comments in a poll, and the comments by others, are not voting, but are just offering individual views in a consensus-building discussion.}} In other words, we do not [suppose to] count votes in an open debate, but weigh how much the expounded arguments fit with the policy and known facts. We have closed many, many discussions against majority vote (not always and not regularly, though), so head counting is not so much of issue (but still cannot be entirely discounted).</br>Still, whatever evidence is brought forward next time should sway those who came to discussion without prejudice, including the closer. The one at [[User:Austronesier/sandbox/East Leste]] is pretty strong but a) probably still inconclusive and b) came late in the discussion: it shows that "Timor Leste" was slightly ahead during 2020 in a broad media overview. I'll comment about nGrams on [[Talk:East Timor]]. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 08:39, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
 
::::Thank you for your detailed comment. It is informative. [[User:Vowvo|Vowvo]] ([[User talk:Vowvo|talk]]) 20:47, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
 
==Disambiguation link notification for December 19==
 
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited [[Ayran]], you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page [[Mint]]<!-- ([//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dablinks.py/Ayran check to confirm]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dab_solver.py/Ayran?client=notify fix with Dab solver])-->.
 
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== Thank You ==
 
Hey, just wanted to say thank you. I was editing on ip 49.255.235.225 over at Kosovo talk and you responded. My first talk page discussion, and it ended in quick consensus, and it encouraged me to get my account in order. [[User:Dauwenkust|Dauwenkust]] ([[User talk:Dauwenkust|talk]]) 03:37, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 
:{{u|Dauwenkust}} You will probably find out that it's not always plain sailing here, but nonetheless I'm glad to have been helpful, and I hope you will stay around for a while. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 09:34, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 
==[[Konchem Ishtam Konchem Kashtam]]==
I cannot understand how you could close the discussion at [[Talk:Konchem Ishtam Konchem Kashtam#Requested move 8 May 2021]] as moved. Currently, only {{u|DaxServer}} and I have participated in the discussion. Just two participants apart from the nom are not enough to close an RM. We need at least a few more participants to fulfill a discussion. [[User:Neel.arunabh|Neel.arunabh]] ([[User talk:Neel.arunabh|talk]]) 15:35, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
 
==Move review for [[:Konchem Ishtam Konchem Kashtam]]==
An editor has asked for a [[Wikipedia:Move review#page name|Move review]] of [[:Konchem Ishtam Konchem Kashtam]]. Because you closed the move discussion for this page, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the move review. <!-- This originally was from the template {{subst:MCRNote|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~ -->[[User:Neel.arunabh|Neel.arunabh]] ([[User talk:Neel.arunabh|talk]]) 16:25, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
 
==Move review for [[:Konchem Ishtam Konchem Kashtam]]==
An editor has asked for a [[Wikipedia:Move review#page name|Move review]] of [[:Konchem Ishtam Konchem Kashtam]]. Because you closed the move discussion for this page, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the move review. <!-- This originally was from the template {{subst:MCRNote|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~ --> [[User:Neel.arunabh|Neel.arunabh]] ([[User talk:Neel.arunabh|talk]]) 16:30, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
 
==[[Chrysler Horizon]]==
Thanks for cutting the Gordian Knot there. Of all the flawed options I think that this is the best one; I didn't originally propose it because it didn't seem to match the naming guidelines. Best, <span style="background:#ff0000;font-family:Times New Roman;">[[User:Mr.choppers|<span style="color:#FDEE00;">'''&nbsp;Mr.choppers&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;'''</span>]][[User talk:Mr.choppers|<span style="color:#FDEE00;">✎&nbsp;</span>]]</span> 18:32, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
 
== [[Talk:Title (album)#Requested move 1 June 2021]] ==
 
Can you add a bit more than "per non" as you closing statement please. While the majority supported the move some (such as me) provided reasons why SONGDAB didn't apply, thanks. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 20:48, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
:{{ping|Crouch, Swale}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Title_(album)&diff=prev&oldid=1032403952 done]. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 06:51, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 
== Sajmište ==
 
Hi. Yes, it is 2021, not 2020. Sorry, my bad :) [[User:PajaBG|PajaBG]] ([[User talk:PajaBG|talk]]) 19:51, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 
== [[Talk:Birky, Chuhuiv Raion]] ==
 
Thank you for closing this. Could you please explain to me however which exactly part of [[WP:PRECISION]] mandates the name [[Birky, Kharkiv Raion]] rather than [[Birky, Kharkiv Raion, Kharkiv Oblast]]? We just had the administrative reform of Ukraine which eliminated half ot the raions, and I have been spending the last year consistently renaming them. Your move is at variance with the majority of Ukrainian names. [[WP:UAPLACE]] has no status, sometime it gets updated, sometimes it does not. Other countries do not follow this pattern either, we for example do not disambiguate US localities by county without indicating the state, and Russia consistently uses names such as [[Zarechye, Zarechye Work Settlement, Odintsovsky District, Moscow Oblast]]. I do not think this is the correct decision.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 09:18, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
:{{ping|Ymblanter}} [[WP:PRECISION]] states that {{tq|titles should unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but should be no more precise than that}} – since there is only one [[Kharkiv Raion]] and only one [[Chuhuiv Raion]], that's sufficient precision and there is no need to add additional precision. I even quoted [[WP:UAPLACE#Disambiguation]] {{tq|If there is more than one settlement with a certain name in an oblast, disambiguate by district, e.g. write [[Hrabove, Shatsk Raion]]}}, which apparently applies (and is IMO commonsense). I only assumed that the proposer was not intimately familiar with the conventions so I overrode the proposal.<br>Now, if the practice differs from the guidelines as written, that's a separate issue... I presumed [[WP:UAPLACE]] enjoys a broad acceptance. Personally, I find titles as [[Zarechye, Zarechye Work Settlement, Odintsovsky District, Moscow Oblast]] an abomination; but I only worked from the guidelines as written, not from personal preferences.<br>As for the [[WP:USPLACE]], it has always been an exception and subject to much controversy, so can hardly be used as a role model. But in the US, it is uncommon to have places in one state with the same name, while villages in Slavic countries see much lesser variation, as can be seen by sheer size of [[:Category:Set indices on populated places in Russia]]. Taking a semi-random stab, [[:en:Alexeyevka, Gribanovsky District, Voronezh Oblast]] maps to [[:ru:Алексеевка (Грибановский район)]] and [[:uk:Олексіївка (Грибановський район)]]. If there's an outlier, it's actually [[WP:RUSPLACE]] on en.wiki. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 09:47, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
:: No, [[WP:UAPLACE]] does not reflect anything. Some parts of it have ever been adopted through RfC, others were never scrutinied by the community, and there are too little people working on the topic to make any conclusions. The names you ended up with were not suggested in the discussion and go contrary to the existing practice. If they stay, you have to rename hundreds of other localities.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 10:24, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
:::[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]]: I have no qualms moving it to the proposed name. But I will note that
:::#the "existing practice" is a [[WP:LOCALCONSENSUS]] flying in the face of the established policy and practice on en.wp ([[WP:PRECISE]], [[WP:CONCISE]]) and a documented NC ([[WP:UAPLACE]]).
:::#the "existing practice" does not seem to be followed in practice. Why is there [[Kostiantynivka, Krasnokutsk settlement hromada, Bohodukhiv Raion, Kharkiv Oblast]] but [[Kostiantynivka, Mykolaiv Oblast]]? Why [[Birky, Yavoriv Raion]], or [[Horodok, Rivne Raion]], disobeying [[WP:RUSPLACE]] or [[WP:UAPLACE]]?
:::If one cannot trust either the written conventions or practice, do not be surprised if the end result is a mess. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 11:14, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
:::: Because a lot of creations (or creations of red links which I eventually followed) were made by users who came here from Ukrainian Wikipedia and moved and created articles without knowing anything (and caring, to be honest) about our policies. The articles on Ukrainian articles here are extremely disordered, they were a complete mess even before the 2020 administrative reform and became one huge mess after the reform. For several years, I have been trying, single-handedly, to clean up this mess. I have not yet gone through Rivne Oblast, otherwise these articles have already been renamed. [[Kostiantynivka, Mykolaiv Oblast]] is a more difficult case, I followed the redlink first, and it is not immediately in my workflow for this round, but most likely when I am going through Mykolaiv Oblast, I will rename this one as well. (There is also a question which is the principal name - for instance, one of the Birky's is an urban locality, and all others are rural localities - does this make the urban one the principal meaning? Some users have strong opinions about this. Eventually we will need to create dabs and sets and rename these articles as well, but this is not what I am currently doing).--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 12:38, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
::::: Fair enough. I defer to those who actually care, even if I might dislike some aspects, so I moved the two [[Birky]] articles of Kharkiv Oblast. By the way, those two are adjacent to one another (raion boundary running between them), and the village is much larger and more historically significant than the town (so much on the "urban vs. rural" argument). [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 13:39, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::: Great, thank you very much. Indeed, I personally would npt accept the "more signoficant" argument taken for urban. I will eventually go through the doubtful localities and rename them.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 13:57, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 
== [[Roche]] ==
 
You closed [[Talk:Roche#Requested move 1 June 2021]] as move to [[Roche]] and the DAB to [[Roche (disambiguation)]]. Although the RM had been open for over a month all that people like myself looking at [[WP:RMC]] saw was a request of [[Hoffmann-La Roche]] → [[F. Hoffmann-La Roche]] rather than [[Hoffmann-La Roche]] → [[Roche]] and [[Roche]] → [[Roche (disambiguation)]]. I think given the long-term significance of some of the topics if this had have been the original request it would have seen opposition but as noted many people don't pay much attention to moves that don't involve primary topics unless they're interested in the topic. Per [[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Moves of other pages]] can I suggest that either the pages are moved back and you file a new RM to make this move or you move the company to [[Roche (company)]] and put the DAB back at the base name. Note I found this move from a recent changed when the DAB was moved. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 16:22, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 
:{{ping|Crouch, Swale}} No, sorry. The request stood open for over a month with little input, and the primary topic assertion was eminently reasonable on its face. I was trying to clean up the mile-long WP:RM backlog, and the move required adjusting additional 30 or so pages from now-moved [[:Category:Roche]]. Whoever wants to file a new RM or a MR is more than welcome, but I'm not willing to entertain more [[WP:BURO]] exercise. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 16:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
::It may have been reasonable but I still think it was controversial enough to require a discussion that people can see its a primary topic takeover rather than a simple move elsewhere which is simply why it didn't get much attention. Regarding the move to [[:Category:Roche]] I'd point out that [[WP:C2D]] says "unambiguous (so it generally does not apply to proposals to remove a disambiguator from the category name, ''even when the main article is the primary topic of its name'', i.e. it does not contain a disambiguator)". While I appreciate you're boldness in making some moves that aren't likely to be too controversial I think this one is so, so the "Moves of other pages" of RMCI is likely to apply. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 16:39, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 
:::{{ping|Crouch, Swale}} I grant that you are right on the procedure, but I'm not so sure about the substance: do you seriously contend that the company is the [[WP:PTOPIC]] for "Roche"? I'm not a fan of "might be controversial" argumentation: if it's really controversial, someone ought to formulate a cogent argument against it. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 17:39, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
::::Yes I do doubt primacy based on the fact [[Roche, Cornwall]] gets over a quarter of the views, [[Ruché]] and [[Roche (surname)]] combined also get around a quarter and [[Roche limit]] gets over twice and probably has more long-term significance even though it may not be called just "Roche" much and [[The Roches]] gets over 3x though it has a different name namely plural. Books doesn't appear to return anything for the company. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 17:46, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 
:::::I'm amenable to reopening, but please double-check your figures: a quarter of what? When I examine pageviews, [https://pageviews.toolforge.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&range=latest-90&pages=Roche,_Cornwall|Roche|F._Hoffmann-La_Roche|Hoffmann-La_Roche|Roche_(surname)], the company had 72000 (and counting, under the new pagename) in last 90 days, while [[Roche, Cornwall]] had 2185 and [[Roche (surname)]] 1142. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 18:17, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
::::::OK that's reasonable, I still have small doubts about the move but I'm fine with leaving it. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 16:03, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
 
== RM close ==
 
Greetings. Your [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:R_from_related_word&curid=2602576&diff=1033558851&oldid=1033382999 closing comment] at [[Template talk:R from related word]] seems like a !vote in the discussion rather than an assessment of consensus. Please fix. Thank you. --[[User:Sangdeboeuf|Sangdeboeuf]] ([[User talk:Sangdeboeuf|talk]]) 23:03, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
:[[User:Sangdeboeuf|Sangdeboeuf]] I quoted a part of Thryduulf's comment (and formatted it as such), which I sometimes do when I find a particularly apt argument. I don't think that a radically different summary is needed, particularly as the discussion could not be closed any other way. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 08:01, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
::I was referring to your comment {{tq|this should be the main concern when renaming templates}}. That seems like taking a side in the debate, which could lead one to question whether the close was fair. --[[User:Sangdeboeuf|Sangdeboeuf]] ([[User talk:Sangdeboeuf|talk]]) 08:07, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
:::[[User:Sangdeboeuf|Sangdeboeuf]]: Because I ''was'' persuaded by opposing arguments such as {{tq|So if this page move is granted, all those backlinks will need to be fixed}}; {{tq| I just don't see where any editors are being mislead by the existing [R from related word],}} and {{tq|this will break a far greater number of redirects than it will potentially fix}}, much overweighing the proposal that would at best bring a minor improvement in wording. Our template naming conventions are minimal, and about everything that [[WP:TPN]] says is {{tq| Template names are easiest to remember if they follow standard English spelling, spacing, and capitalization (also see the naming conventions for articles)}}; on the other hand, we have [[WP:BOLD]] {{tq|One must be especially careful when being bold with templates: updating them can have far reaching consequences because one change can affect lots of pages at once}}. None of the supporters has addressed ''who'' will fix those issues after the move.<br>Really, I feel that RM is a wrong venue for template naming discussions, which would be better suited for [[WP:TFD]]. This one in particular, since it affected issues well beyond the [[WP:AT]] scope. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 09:44, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 
== RM close request ==
 
Hi, could you do me a favour? The RM at [[Talk:Q-Force (TV series)#Requested move 25 June 2021]] seems to have run its course. Would you mind closing it (or relisting if you don't see consensus)? [[User:Lennart97|Lennart97]] ([[User talk:Lennart97|talk]]) 09:51, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
:Thank you! [[User:Lennart97|Lennart97]] ([[User talk:Lennart97|talk]]) 08:01, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 
== Rio Grande Valley ==
 
Hi No such user. Was your closure of the move discussion at [[Lower_Rio_Grande_Valley#Requested_move_15_May_2021]] meant to also move the disambiguation page at [[Rio Grande Valley (disambiguation)]], or just to move the page now located at [[Lower Rio Grande Valley]]. I interpreted it as the latter based on how you made moves after (and since it seems pretty tough to determine there was a consensus for the dab move even if there maybe was for moving the subject page), but the nominator has gone ahead and made a cut and paste move (since corrected) to move the DAB page as well. If the latter, would you mind letting us know? Or if the former, please feel free to undo my reversion and make the DAB page the primary, thank you!--[[User: Yaksar|Yaksar]] [[User talk: Yaksar|(let's chat)]] 00:23, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 
== RM closure ==
 
Your closure of this RM discussion [[Talk:List_of_people_whose_names_are_used_in_chemical_element_names#Requested_move_3_July_2021]] is not a reflection of the proposal nor its discussion. Please revert. -[[User:DePiep|DePiep]] ([[User talk:DePiep|talk]]) 14:05, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
:{{u|DePiep}} What do you propose we do instead of merge? It does not make sense to have this as a stand-alone list, it duplicates the scope. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 14:08, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
::That should or could have been the discussion about. But it was not, and so your closure is incorrect. If you want(ed) to argue this, you could have added this ''as an argument''. But as a closure you are not allowed to enforce your own opinion. -[[User:DePiep|DePiep]] ([[User talk:DePiep|talk]]) 14:28, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
:::{{u|DePiep}}, please, we are not bureaucracy. This one and the related RM ([[Talk:List of places used in the names of chemical elements#Requested move 3 July 2021]]) had been open for a month and sat at the bottom of the RM backlog, both having a limited participation, and ''something'' needed to be done. Would you instead prefer a "no consensus" or a "move" followed by a formal "merge" discussion, typically taking some 3 months to be formally closed?<br>I'm not really fan of the line of argumentation "you are not allowed to enforce your own opinion" (aka "it's contested because I contest it"). You may call it a "supervote" or an "IAR" action (although merging has been put forward and nobody objected). I'd really like to hear if you have any ''<u>substantial</u>'' objection to the result, like, i.e. how the unified list deteriorates readers' experience? [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 14:46, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
::::About your "enforce" and "aka" part: quite an incorrect (and possibly dishonest) description. I say 'dishonest' because you inject several allusions about me or my opinion, and framing questions as if to question my understanding. Again, and it is quite simple: your opinion should have been added as a !vote, which could have been discussed afterward. And no, you cannot ''enforce'' your opinion this way as closer. For the simple reason: you can not claim consensus for your *new* undiscussed outcome. All this for the parallel RM too, of course. -[[User:DePiep|DePiep]] ([[User talk:DePiep|talk]]) 15:20, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
:::::{{u|DePiep}}. [[WP:Move review]] is the proper venue for your grievances. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 16:37, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
::::::Please stop turning this into someone-else-problem. I pointed out the problems on youre talkpage, ''as is recommended''. No need tyo be patronising about how to handle closures. -[[User:DePiep|DePiep]] ([[User talk:DePiep|talk]]) 20:26, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
:{{od}} per [[WP:Move review]] (which explicitly states that one is to raise concerns at the closers talkpage first, as I did), I have reverted your blank-&-redirects edits [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_places_used_in_the_names_of_chemical_elements&curid=31732740&diff=1036807383&oldid=1036748074&diffmode=source], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_people_whose_names_are_used_in_chemical_element_names&curid=31706469&diff=1036807279&oldid=1036751871&diffmode=source]. Shortly I will list your closures as requested, but I need some time to produce due process (including diffs & description). For now, you are advised to consider edits in this controversial (do not wheelbarrow). -[[User:DePiep|DePiep]] ([[User talk:DePiep|talk]]) 20:40, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 
===Move review for [[:List of people whose names are used in chemical element names]]===
An editor has asked for a [[Wikipedia:Move review#List_of_people_whose_names_are_used_in_chemical_element_names|Move review]] of [[:List of people whose names are used in chemical element names]]. Because you closed the move discussion for this page, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the move review. <!-- This originally was from the template {{subst:MCRNote|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~ --> [[User:DePiep|DePiep]] ([[User talk:DePiep|talk]]) 08:18, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
===Move review for [[:List of places used in the names of chemical elements]]===
An editor has asked for a [[Wikipedia:Move review#List of places used in the names of chemical elements|Move review]] of [[:List of places used in the names of chemical elements]]. Because you closed the move discussion for this page, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the move review. <!-- This originally was from the template {{subst:MCRNote|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~ --> [[User:DePiep|DePiep]] ([[User talk:DePiep|talk]]) 08:18, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 
==Disambiguation link notification for August 19==
 
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited [[Krvna osveta]], you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page [[Serdar]]<!-- ([//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dablinks.py/Krvna_osveta check to confirm]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dab_solver.py/Krvna_osveta?client=notify fix with Dab solver])-->.
 
([[User:DPL bot|Opt-out instructions]].) --[[User:DPL bot|DPL bot]] ([[User talk:DPL bot|talk]]) 06:00, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 
==RM close on Afghanistan war==
This close was far too early for a discussion that was in no sense in [[WP:SNOW]] territory. The RM discussion should at least have been allowed to run the full 7 days, and when closed should have a fully reasoned close going beyond a head-count. Please re-list. [[User:FOARP|FOARP]] ([[User talk:FOARP|talk]]) 14:13, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
:[[User:FOARP|FOARP]] How was it '''not''' in [[WP:SNOW]] territory? It lasted for four days and had over 100 participants. I do not normally take or give headcount, but judge on the strength of the arguments, which were overwhelmingly concluding that the war is practically over. I gave what I consider a "full-reasoned close". There was an overwhelming support for the move, and nothing indicated that the war will change the course or that the discussion will change the course. We are not the bureaucracy, and having a 7-day discussion on possibly the most viewed article at the moment is not productive. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 14:18, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
::Just after reading your improper response to the sensible request above, I have opened a thread on [[WP:AN]] to which you can respond and also notified you there. [[User:Georgethedragonslayer|Georgethedragonslayer]] ([[User talk:Georgethedragonslayer|talk]]) 14:24, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 
== RM close on War in Afghanistan (2001-2021) ==
 
Hi. I made a move request on the [[Talk:War in Afghanistan (2001–2021)]] page ([[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%932021)#Request_move_19_August_2021|Request move 19 August 2021]]). </br>
Sorry that I created it before the other was closed. I didn't know about the rule but I have seen more move requests concurrently on other talk pages and I thought it is allowed. </br>
On the other hand, can I get a clarification on why do you think it will not succeed? I understand that the ending year has been set to 2021 but the point of the request wasn't the year. I just wanted to know what people think about the title being more specific because to me the name "War in Afghanistan" is just too generic. I mean all the wars in the [[Afghanistan conflict (1978–present)]] could be named War in Afghanistan. [[User:BnC78|BnC78]] ([[User talk:BnC78|talk]]) 14:41, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
:[[User:BnC78|BnC78]] Apologies if I came across as rude. However, the title you proposed will hardly be accepted because the war was not waged only by the U.S, and in fact many significant operations were executed by the Afghan army and paramilitaries. It's not [[U.S. War in Vietnam]] despite overwhelming American involvement, but the [[Vietnam War]]. We title the articles by their common names, and "U.S. War in Afghanistan" is hardly used in sources (except when specifically dealing with the American role). Plus, please have in mind that this is a major article, probably read by million readers this month, so jumping into an ill-prepared requested move is a bad idea. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 14:48, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
::Ok. Thank you. [[User:BnC78|BnC78]] ([[User talk:BnC78|talk]]) 14:50, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 
== Discussion at Talk:Politics of Afghanistan ==
 
{{tb|Talk:Politics of Afghanistan#Requested move 25 August 2021}} --[[User:Bejnar|Bejnar]] ([[User talk:Bejnar|talk]]) 02:23, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 
== Sputnik V ==
 
The article about the [[Sputnik V COVID-19 vaccine]] was [[Special:Diff/1003527559|moved]] to that title several months ago because it was affected by an RM. Is that title incorrect? Articles about other COVID-19 vaccines have titles that include either the name of the manufacturer or the brand name only. In this case, however, Sputnik V is already the common name while [[Gamaleya Research Institute of Epidemiology and Microbiology|Gamaleya]] is the manufacturer. '''[[User:LSGH|LSGH]]''' ([[User talk:LSGH|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/LSGH|contributions]]) 06:56, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 
:{{ping|LSGH}} Not sure I follow. I moved articles about the major vaccines to their ''common'' names, which may be the trade name or manufacturer name(s) depending on case. I'm sure you'll agree that the Russian vaccine is known as "Sputnik V" (and its manufacturer "Gamaleya" is not broadly know), while the Pfizer's one is known as "Pfizer–BioNTech" (and not by its trade name Comirnaty nor its INN Tozinomeran). [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 13:32, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 
::I agree that Sputnik V is the common name because it is widely known by that name. However, unlike [[CoronaVac]], the title of the article about Sputnik V contains the phrase "COVID-19 vaccine". Is it because [[Sputnik V]] is a redirect? '''[[User:LSGH|LSGH]]''' ([[User talk:LSGH|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/LSGH|contributions]]) 03:27, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 
== Question ==
 
Thank you very much because you moved my userpage back. Just a question, can any user move a page?, why did this happen to me. Can I move a page too? '''[[User:Clipred|<span style="color: #696969">clip</span><span style="color: red">red</span>]] <span style="color: #a19e12">(</span>[[User talk:Clipred|<span style="color: #a19e12">talk</span>]]<span style="color: #a19e12">)</span>''' 09:47, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
:{{ping|Clipred}} Basically yes, any user with minimal tenure ("autoconfirmed") can move any page, if the target is (basically) unoccupied (I'm a [[WP:Page mover]] so I can also do that over most "occupied" titles). See [[Wikipedia:Moving a page#Move restrictions]]. It is generally useful to move or archive your own talk page and subpages, but I concur it's not a good idea to mess with someone else's. Incidents like the one you encountered are very rare though, and the offenders may be quickly blocked, as it amounts to a form of [[WP:Harrassment]]. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 09:59, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
 
:::Thank you very much. '''[[User:Clipred|<span style="color: #696969">clip</span><span style="color: red">red</span>]] <span style="color: #a19e12">(</span>[[User talk:Clipred|<span style="color: #a19e12">talk</span>]]<span style="color: #a19e12">)</span>''' 10:02, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
 
==[[Talk:Alp Arslan National Drama Theater]]==
Given the previous title used British English, how do you justify the new title using American English per [[WP:RETAIN]]? -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 11:46, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
:{{ping|Necrothesp}} I missed "theatre" in the previous title, honestly, but the article text consistently used [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alp_Arslan_National_Drama_Theater&oldid=1043585908 theater] at the time I moved it. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alp_Arslan_National_Drama_Theater&oldid=580109335 The original version] liberally mixed both forms. There is also mix in [[:Category:Theatres in Ashgabat]]. I do not have a personal preference. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 11:54, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
::I really think the title should retain the variety of English originally used. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 12:22, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
:::I think so too, but, as I said, it is not determinable (unless you treat "bad English", the informal international standard, as one). I won't object if you do it yourself, but I cannot be bothered. I had sincerely thought it was AmEng. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 12:39, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
::::Thanks. I agree about "Bad English"! -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 13:10, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
 
== [[Talk:Bir Shumsher Jang Bahadur Rana]] ==
 
Hey No such user, I saw that you moved [[Indra Jatra]]. If you do not mind, could you move [[Talk:Bir Shumsher Jang Bahadur Rana|this]] page as well. Thanks. '''[[User:Bada Kaji|Bada Kaji]]''' ([[User talk:Bada Kaji|talk]] • श्रीमान् गम्भीर) 17:13, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
 
== A barnstar for you! ==
 
{| style="border: 2px solid orange; background-color: #FFFAF0;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" |{{#ifeq:For being an awesome and fair closer. ––[[User:FormalDude|<span style="color: #0151D2;font-size:100%">FormalDude </span>]] <span style="border-radius:7em;padding:1.75px 3.25px;background:#005bed;font-size:75%">[[User talk:FormalDude|<span style="color:#FFF">'''talk'''</span>]]</span> 09:52, 19 October 2021 (UTC)|alt|[[File:The Closer's Barnstar.png|100px]]|[[File:The Closer's Barnstar.png|100px]]}}
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Closer's Barnstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 2px solid gray;" | For being an awesome and fair closer. ––[[User:FormalDude|<span style="color: #0151D2;font-size:100%">FormalDude </span>]] <span style="border-radius:7em;padding:1.75px 3.25px;background:#005bed;font-size:75%">[[User talk:FormalDude|<span style="color:#FFF">'''talk'''</span>]]</span> 09:52, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
|}
 
== Discussing RM closes ==
 
Hey No such user,
 
I see you're an active RM closer. Recently I got into RM closing too. Is there like a forum for us RM closers where we can discuss best practices? I sure have a few questions to ask (I can ask them here, but just curious if something like this already exists)? '''[[User:Vice regent|VR]]''' <sub>[[User talk:Vice regent|talk]]</sub> 01:42, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
:Hey [[User:Vice regent|VR]]. There is no established forum, as far as I know. I suppose that [[Wikipedia talk:Requested moves]] is the most appropriate place, but not many people have it on their watchlist (myself included... but fixed now). [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 06:29, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
::Got it. But since we're talking, can you take a look at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Non-admin_closure#Apparent_contradictions_between_WP:BADNAC_and_WP:RMNAC this]? I think there might be contradictions in policy regarding move closures, but I could be wrong.'''[[User:Vice regent|VR]]''' <sub>[[User talk:Vice regent|talk]]</sub> 15:02, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
::I believe [[Wikipedia:Discussions for discussion]] is the venue. [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 15:07, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
 
== Revert ==
 
Hallo, noticing your [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sky_Global&oldid=prev&diff=1052702968 revert], I was wondering if you know where to find information about linking to wikidata. Thanks. ~~ [[User:Lotje|Lotje]] ([[User talk:Lotje|talk]]) 05:32, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
:Hi {{u|Lotje}}. I haven't seen Wikidata linked anywhere from article text in this manner, and [[MOS:IWL]] only mentions Wiktionary and Wikisource as permissible links. Rules aside, I don't see anything in the Wikidata entry that cannot be inferred from the existing text (he's a Belgian prosecutor, a male and a human at that). {{tl|Interlanguage link}} (aka Ill) is also rather common, in order to link to a more comprehensive article in another language, if there is one (I'd expect Flemish or Dutch here...). Whoops, now I see there is indeed :nl, so we can substitute {{tl|Q}} with {{tl|Ill}}, although it's questionable if he's worth cross-linking, since he's only mentioned in passing in an article about something entirely else. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 07:56, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
 
== Distinction between Ravens and Crows ==
 
My edit asking for a citation was rescinded as "generally unhelpful" which seems clearly against Wikipedia's stated policy of any editor being free to request a citation for unsubstantiated claims. In other words, it's draconian and flies in the face of the established policy, whoch requires that claims of fact in encyclopedia articles be evidence-based. The request for a citation needs to be satisfied, not repressed. [[User:HarmonicSphere|HarmonicSphere]] ([[User talk:HarmonicSphere|talk]]) 15:05, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
:Do you seriously dispute that crows are smaller than ravens, or just trying to be obnoxious? If you seriously do, you could do everyone a favor and find a citation yourself. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 15:11, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 
::Firstly, I think there's some misunderstanding as to what I asked for a citation for. If you look at my original edit, you'll see the claim I asked supporting evidence for said that there is no clear distinction between crows and ravens — a claim you're now saying I supported, but which I was asking for a citation for. I'm trying to have a civil conversation about honouring the spirit of evidence-based articles by doing what Wikipedians are supposed to do, which is ask for a reputable source for claims... and you're responding to that by being insulting and condescending. My understanding that there *is* a difference, one most detectable by the calls of these different subcategories of Corvid species, is based on a [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ5iippq3rA) put out by the [Cornell Lab of Ornithology](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Lz88Rt3GT75YT2ORAmaMQ), which appears a reputable and reliable source, which declares that crows caw (a long, drawn-out cry), whereas ravens emit deep, guttural croaks. There are other differences as well, including size, body shape, and gregariousness. Perhaps ''you'' could do ''us'' all a favour next time and try to ensure you understand your critic's intentions and meaning before stooping to insults. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:HarmonicSphere|HarmonicSphere]] ([[User talk:HarmonicSphere#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/HarmonicSphere|contribs]]) </span>
 
:::{{ping|HarmonicSphere}} So, instead of clarifying what was unclear on the article's talk page, you came to mine to teach me about policy, and call that "trying to have civil conversation"?<br>The sentence apparently refers to all names given to 40+ species within the entire genus, [[list of Corvus species]]; i.e. there's no [[phylogenetic]] reason to differentiate a dozen species called "[[raven]]s" from 30 or so called "[[crow]]s" ''as a group''. It does not say that the [[carrion crow]] or [[American crow]] are the same species as the [[common raven]], and there is indeed a number of differences, as evident by the videos you link to. A similar situation exists for e.g. "[[pigeon]]s" and "[[dove]]s" ([[list of Columbidae species]]), or "[[cormorant]]s" and "[[shag]]s" ([[List of cormorant species]]) – "classification" by their common names is not backed up by a systematic scientific difference. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 10:28, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 
== Question ==
 
Hey,
 
Sometimes I miss things that are obvious. Why did you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2021_November&diff=1054494668&oldid=1054488078 close this move review] (of a RM closed by {{u|力}} as "not moved") as "Endorsed"? As I look through the RM, the most relevant piece of evidence seems to have been [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Nur-Sultan&diff=1049249950&oldid=1049194682 this table] provided by Tecumseh which would seem to favor Astana over Nur-Sultan. I'm not at all defending the user or their poor behavior. As you know, I sometimes close moves and your comments will help me figure out why the discussions have been closed the way they were. I'm sure there's a reason and I just don't seem to be seeing it at the moment (its been a long day).'''[[User:Vice regent|VR]]''' <sub>[[User talk:Vice regent|talk]]</sub> 23:48, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
:Because no one deemed his evidence sufficient. Indeed, a casual look at his search [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22Astana%22%20-%22Nur-Sultan%22&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_ylo=2021&as_yhi=2021] shows that the results are garbage, including: "Astana process", Indian and Indonesian authors surnamed Astana, Astana International Financial Center, "Kajian Neuroscience Wisata Ziarah Desa Astana Kecamatan Gunugng Jati Kabupaten Cirebon" etc. etc. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 20:20, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
::Got it, thanks for the answer. Crafting searches so that they don't include irrelevant hits is always tricky.'''[[User:Vice regent|VR]]''' <sub>[[User talk:Vice regent|talk]]</sub> 20:50, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 
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== Re: Talk:Ivo Andrić ==
 
I already responded at your SPI mention, I haven't seen this in quite a while so I don't recognize it trivially any more. But I don't think it will matter, if what we see so far is representative. --[[User:Joy|Joy &#91;shallot&#93;]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 19:37, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 
== A suggestion to rename [[Cross-country skiing (sport)]] may be of interest to you ==
 
...at [[Talk:Cross-country skiing (sport)#Move to: Cross-country ski competition?]]. Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 20:39, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
==[[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|Speedy deletion]] nomination of [[:Nico Krijno]]==
[[Image:Copyright-problem.svg|48px|left|alt=|link=]]
{{Quote box|quote=<p>If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read [[WP:Your first article|the guide to writing your first article]].</p><p>You may want to consider using the [[Wikipedia:Article wizard|Article Wizard]] to help you create articles.</p>|width=20%|align=right}}
A tag has been placed on [[:Nico Krijno]] requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under [[WP:CSD#G12|section G12 of the criteria for speedy deletion]], because the page appears to be an unambiguous [[Wikipedia:Copyright violations|copyright infringement]]. This page appears to be a direct copy from https://wsimag.com/art/55070-nico-krijno. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images taken from other web sites or printed material, and as a consequence, your addition will most likely be deleted. You may use external websites or other printed material as a source of ''information'', but not as a source of ''sentences''. This part is crucial: ''say it in your own words''. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators '''will be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]'''.
 
If the external website or image belongs to you, and you want to allow Wikipedia to use the text or image — which means allowing other people to use it for any reason — then you ''must'' verify that externally by one of the processes explained at [[Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials]]. The same holds if you are not the owner but have their permission. If you are not the owner and do not have permission, see [[Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission]] for how you may obtain it. You might want to look at [[Wikipedia:Copyrights|Wikipedia's copyright policy]] for more details, or ask a question [[Wikipedia:Help desk|here]].
 
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may '''contest the nomination''' by [[:Nico Krijno|visiting the page]] and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with [[Wikipedia:List of policies|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]]. <!-- Template:Db-copyvio-notice --> <!-- Template:Db-csd-notice-custom --> [[User:Fram|Fram]] ([[User talk:Fram|talk]]) 11:52, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
 
== Achieving consensus at Talk:Cross-country skiing (sport)? ==
 
No such user, you are invited to participate in a ranked-choice poll at [[Talk:Cross-country skiing (sport)#Ranked-choice poll of alternatives offered]], which may help arrive at a consensus among the choices discussed. I have set up an opportunity for you to do so. Cheers, [[User:HopsonRoad|HopsonRoad]] ([[User talk:HopsonRoad|talk]]) 17:52, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
 
== [[WP:AFC]] Helper News ==
 
Hello! I wanted to drop a quick note for all of our [[WP:AFCP|AFC participants]]; nothing huge and fancy like a newsletter, but a few points of interest.
*AFCH will now show live previews of the comment to be left on a decline.
*The template {{t|db-afc-move}} has been created - this template is similar to {{t|db-move}} when there is a redirect in the way of an acceptance, but specifically tells the patrolling admin to let you (the draft reviewer) take care of the actual move.
Short and sweet, but there's always more to discuss at [[WT:AFC]]. Stop on by, maybe [[toolforge:randomincategory/Pending_AfC_submissions&server=en.wikipedia.org&namespace=2!118&type=page|review a draft]] on the way? Whether you're one of our top reviewers, or haven't reviewed in a while, I want to thank you for helping out in the past and in the future. Cheers, [[User talk:Primefac|Primefac]], via [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|talk]]) 16:00, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
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== Your re-close ==
 
First, I find it inappropriate to revert an editors close without clear reason; if you disagreed with it, you should have discussed it with them, and then taken it to MRV if you felt it was necessary.
 
Second, can you explain how you assessed consensus? In particular, your statement that {{tq|"Spacefarers" has never enjoyed a broad consensus, and should anyone disagree they should propose it in a RM}}, given that the article has been stable at spacefarers for four years and thus the onus is on those who oppose that title, not those that support it. [[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]] ([[User talk:BilledMammal|talk]]) 22:27, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
:The RM closes by Sceptre have a long and troubled history, which could be best examined by perusing Move Review archives for the last couple of years. How come that they had like dozen challenged closes in the past year? Honestly, I've had enough of their supervotes at this point.
:On to the substance: nobody in the RM discussion has really challenged the assertion that "astronauts" is the neutral, English-language common term for people who traveled into space. There were several explicit supports for "astronauts". Those who expressed concern mainly did so on the procedural grounds (that "spacefarers" was a long-standing title, but it has never been tested in a RM, and [[Spacefarer]] redirects to [[human spaceflight]]). We have [[:Category:Women astronauts]] and [[:Category:Astronauts]] and article [[Astronaut]]. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 22:37, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
::I know about their troubled history; there are two open at the moment, one of which I opened. However, I'm not seeing the "components" of a supervote here; my reading of the discussion would be that there is broad support to move from "Astronauts" to "astronauts", but a sufficiently large number of editors find the move from "spacefarers" to "Astronauts" to be sufficiently controversial that it should be discussed directly. I would add that challenges to the assertion were likely waiting for the actual RM, as it was tangential to the current move request which is clearly non-controversial. [[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]] ([[User talk:BilledMammal|talk]]) 22:49, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
:::[[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]]: The RM opening was tainted to an extent, since Astronaut→astronaut was uncontroversial and could have gone through WP:RMTR, but the previous botched move spacefarers→Astronauts should have been declared. Yaksar, Crouch;Swale and yourself did express concerns to that effect and suggested restoring to status quo ante, but generally found "astronauts" acceptable. Dream Focus, Rreagan007 and powera then provided cogent arguments as to why "astronauts" is in line with CRITERIA (consistency and recognizability). In sum, nobody in the discussion really advocated "spacefarers" on its merits, so I don't see how it could possibly emerged as RM result. It's fine to immediately revert an undiscussed move on procedural grounds, but doing that after a week of discussion among 5-6 participants who generally (if cautiously) preferred a different title is in my opinion just bureaucratic. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 08:48, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
::::I agree with BilledMammal in that reverting a close without discussion that was not obviously problematic is not a good idea. I also agree that the spacefarers title was in place since 2018 and wasn't complained about previously so was clearly the stable title. Can I suggest that you restore Sceptre's close and if you feel "astronauts" is correct you can start a new RM (or take it to move review) for that specifically, thanks. Assessing consensus was difficult as you noted because there was the uncontroversial issue of capitalization and the potentially controversial move from spacefarers to astronauts so I think reverting back to the stable title and starting a new RM from it is the best way forward. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 22:26, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
:::::{{Ping|Sceptre}} So that they know this discussion is going on. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 22:44, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
:::::No discussion was ever had to change it to List of female spacefarers with the edit summary (Includes non-astronauts). That is not a valid reason for the change but no one cared enough to challenge it at the time. It makes no sense to change it back now unless enough people actually believe it should be and can give a good reason. Procedural is not a valid reason. [[User:Dream Focus | '''<span style="color:blue">D</span><span style="color:green">r</span><span style="color:red">e</span><span style="color:orange">a</span><span style="color:purple">m</span> <span style="color:blue">Focus</span>''']] 22:45, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
::::::While I probably should have discussed with Sceptre first, I disagree that it was "not obviously problematic". That the procedure had not been followed to a iota is not a very strong reason to restore the old title, particularly after a RM was held. For more obscure articles such as this one, long-time title stability is usually a result of no one having bothered to challenge it since it was created or silently moved. I'm generally disinclined to redo things just for procedure's sake, and I concur with Dream Focus that {{tq|It makes no sense to change it back now unless enough people actually believe it should be and can give a good reason}}, and no one has given a reason based on [[WP:CRITERIA]] so far. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 09:03, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
:::::::Precision and recognizability, due to the issues with using Astronauts for Cosmonauts and Taikonauts. [[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]] ([[User talk:BilledMammal|talk]]) 09:06, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
::::::::I understand that, but should we have that discussion on every page that concerns astronauts? I believe the matter was resolved in strong favor of "astronaut", as affirmed by e.g. [[Talk:Astronaut#Requested move 9 September 2020]]. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 09:42, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::A bundled RM could be appropriate, but an RM is needed. [[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]] ([[User talk:BilledMammal|talk]]) 06:44, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
:I'm just going to third the expressed discomfort with unilaterally reverting a close rather than following the established process of talk page discussion -> MRV. I'm not familiar with the closer and their supposedly storied history with supervotes/MRV, but if it's as bad as you say, it seems like the real solution would be to start a discussion to establish community consensus to topic-ban them from RM closes. [[User:Colin M|Colin M]] ([[User talk:Colin M|talk]]) 16:21, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
::[[User:Colin M|Colin M]] Acknowledged; I accept {{tl|trout}} for not being collegial with Sceptre. They certainly do have experience, and I appreciate their readiness to close tough discussions, although it's been met with mixed approval by the MR community. I don't think the rate of their mistakes is nowhere as near as to warrant a topic-ban, and I would oppose it if proposed. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 09:16, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
 
== Hijrah ==
 
Regarding this close; how did you decide for "Hijrah" rather than "Hijra"? [[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]] ([[User talk:BilledMammal|talk]]) 00:40, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
:[[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]]: [[Hijra]] was not an option, since it is a dab page, with [[Hijra (South Asia)]] arguably the primary topic. "Hijrah" was the primary or secondary choice of several posters in the discussion, and fits well with the [[WP:COMMONNAME]] provision {{tq|When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others}}. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 08:16, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
::The article could have been moved to Hijra with a disambiguation; that would have been an acceptable close. [[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]] ([[User talk:BilledMammal|talk]]) 11:34, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
:::I think it used to reside at [[Hijra (Islam)]], but no one favored (or mentioned) that particular option. "Hijrah" is well supported by sources, by posters in the discussion (it was the first option for Iskandar323, Neocorelight and Amakuru, and second by Hairy Dude; you and Rreagan007 only supported "Hijra" but neglected to address the disambiguation issues), and by the policy excerpt I quoted above. Amakuru's point that ngrams are skewed by results for transgender "Hijra" was left unrefuted. I stand by the close. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 11:47, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 
== RM close of The In Between ==
 
I have significant concerns about your close of [[Talk:The_In_Between_(2022_film)#Requested move 11 February 2022]]. As you pretty much state in your closing statement, you chose to follow the view of one participant in the discussion, against the views of the nom (myself) and the other 3 participants. In the case of the first requested move, for the album, the nom and 3 participants supported the move as proposed, with one suggesting a different move, so I do not understand how you reasoned the consensus was to move to a more complicated title with unnecessary disambiguation favored by only one user. Apparently you agreed this should be disambiguated with [[The In-Between (musical)]], which you then decided to [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The In-Between (musical)|nominate for deletion!]]
 
For the second move (whether the film is the primary topic or not), myself and another user argued vehemently in support of moving to the base term, two other users were neutral, and again just one participant was against. In this case I either see weak consensus in support of the the move as proposed, or failing that, no consensus, meaning the film article should have been left at [[The In Between (film)]]. But again, you decided there was consensus for what only a single participant advocated. More baffling is that you then decided to keep [[The In Between (film)]] as a redirect to the 2022 film, "you guess". This is not how parenthetical disambiguation works. If there is no primary topic, either there is a single film with the base term "The In Between" and the article for the film should be at [[The In Between (film)]] as it was, or there is more than 1 film that needs to be disambiguated, and "The In Between (film)" should target the disambiguation page as {{tl|R from incomplete disambiguation}}. In my view, there is only one film spelled "The In Between", and similarly spelled films are already disambiguated by [[WP:SMALLDETAILS]] and hatnotes to the disambiguation page and/or other films are sufficient to get users seeking those other films to the proper article. We only only use parenthetical disambiguation to the text necessary to disambiguate titles with the same spelling.
 
Lastly, obviously a minor point, but you should tag your RM closes with {{tl|RMnac}} or {{tl|RMpmc}}. Personally, as a page mover myself, I would not wade into attempting to close such a controversial discussion, taking [[WP:RMNAC]] and [[WP:NAC]] very seriously. I realize not many admins close RM discussions currently, but close calls should not be made my non-admins IMHO.
 
So, I request at a minimum you revise your close and fix the moves given the above, or reopen and relist the discussion to allow for more participation and someone else to close the discussion later. Otherwise, I must take this to [[WP:MR|move review]]. [[User:Mdewman6|Mdewman6]] ([[User talk:Mdewman6|talk]]) 21:49, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
:In my analysis above, I missed Colin M's comments, who also was in support of the original proposal. So that makes the consensus for the original proposal even stronger for making the film the primary topic (nom + 2 users in favor, 2 neutral, 1 opposed), and the consensus you saw more incorrect. [[User:Mdewman6|Mdewman6]] ([[User talk:Mdewman6|talk]]) 21:56, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 
* {{u|No such user}}, this close at [[Talk:The_In_Between_(2022_film)#Requested move 11 February 2022]] was a blatant [[WP:SUPERVOTE]]. Please revert your close and let someone else evaluate consensus to avoid putting the community through a move review. Thank you. —[[User:Born2cycle|В²C]] [[User_talk:Born2cycle#top|☎]] 06:40, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
**{{ping|Mdewman6}}, I explicitly stated that {{tq|there was '''not clear consensus''' as to the best titles}} and invoked [[WP:NOGOODOPTIONS]], inviting {{tq|Should anyone disagree, feel free to open a RM}}, didn't I?<br>Yes, it was a protracted discussion that had to be closed ''somehow'' so I picked up the option that seemed most reasonable to me; you're certainly free to disagree. I see no point in relisting, since it had been open for 3 weeks.<br>Now, you seem to state there was consensus for "The In Between (film)" and I disagree. Apart from the concerns by the oppose/neutral voters, there are other points to consider:
***The 2022 film is ambiguous with [[The In-Between (2019 film)]], [[In Between (1994 film)]], and [[In Between (2016 film)]]. "The" and hyphen in titles are poor disambiguators (and I explicitly stated that) and there was no consensus that [[WP:SMALLDETAILS]] should apply here (on the contrary, there were explicit statements to the contrary).
***It hardly passes the [[WP:INCDAB]] bar: {{tq|consensus may determine that a parenthetically disambiguated title that is still ambiguous has a primary topic, but the threshold [...] is higher than for a title without parenthetical disambiguation.}}
*:As I did not see enough evidence for this bar (either by posters or by submitted evidence) to be satisfied, the general approach is to disambiguate when in doubt.
*:I did nominate [[The In-Between (musical)]] for deletion since I stumbled upon it, but it is completely irrelevant for the close.
*:Finally, I ''never'' use {{TL|RMpmc}} nor ever will; its use is not mandated to a policy. I find it antithetical to Wikipedian principles, and any close should be interpreted on its merits rather than on the closer's perceived authority. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 08:58, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
* I was asked by Born2cycle [[User_talk:Amakuru#Please_review_this_RM_close|on my talk page]] to review this close, so I've had a look at it (with no prejudice towards B2C's position and as an independent uninvolved observer) and I have to say that IMHO I agree that the close doesn't seem to reflect the discussion. Between the three who explicitly favoured the original proposal and the other two who were neutral on the primary-topic status of the film, that's a fairly clear cut consensus to make the 2022 film the primary topic. And there is no policy or evidence argument saying it should not be so, given the very heavy lead it enjoys in page views. Indeed, with a page-view ratio that strong, it would be very rare for any topic not to be deemed the primary, all other things being equal. So your citing of [[WP:NOGOODOPTIONS]] doesn't seem to be called for - there is a very good option, and that's to move the film to the base name as proposed, which also has the side bonus of making the 2019/2022 ambiguity moot. Finally, I join Mdewman6 in questioning your decision to "I guess" redirect [[The In Between (film)]] to [[The In Between (2022 film)]]. Leaving the redirect that way means that in fact the 2022 film has been deemed primary over the others, so would reside at the partially-disambiguated name similar to the decision made at [[Talk:Thriller_(album)/Archive_7#Requested_move_4_November_2019]]. I join the two users above in requesting for you to please either reopen this or amend the close, because I find it unlikely the close would be endorsed if it ends up at move review. Thanks &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 14:12, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
==Move review for [[:The In Between (2022 film)]]==
An editor has asked for a [[Wikipedia:Move review#The In Between (2022 film)|Move review]] of [[:The In Between (2022 film)]]. Because you closed the move discussion for this page, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the move review. <!-- This originally was from the template {{subst:MCRNote|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~ --> [[User:Mdewman6|Mdewman6]] ([[User talk:Mdewman6|talk]]) 23:25, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
 
== Kosovo border ==
 
The conversation with Horse Eye's Back has gone as far as it can go. Three editors including you have now spoken to him and he clings onto the tassels of "Reliable Sources" out of sheer desperation to push a slanted viewpoint. So if he removes "uncontested territory" again, I will report him and in doing so, will alert you to the discussion. --[[User:Coldtrack|Coldtrack]] ([[User talk:Coldtrack|talk]]) 07:17, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
 
Hello again. In case you are interested, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Horse_Eye's_Back_on_Kosovo I have begun a discussion]. --[[User:Coldtrack|Coldtrack]] ([[User talk:Coldtrack|talk]]) 20:19, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
 
== A link ==
 
Really? It's a simple port link. This does not "bloat" pages. Does any addition the page "bloat" it as well? C'mon now. Seems you don't like portals, and if my presumption is correct, than all the more power to you. However, a simple See also link and one link does not bloat a thing. It's all good. Cheers, <span class="smallcaps" style="font-variant:small-caps;">[[User:Northamerica1000|North America]]<sup>[[User talk:Northamerica1000|<span style="font-size: x-small;">1000</span>]]</sup></span> 12:51, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
:[[User:Northamerica1000|Northamerica1000]]: a ''relevant'' addition would not bloat a page; However, I don't think adding a link to the portal (and the whole See also section along) enhances reading experience for anyone interested in the [[Crucible curse]]. While I'm generally indifferent to portals specifically, I'm rather wary of indiscriminate spamming of articles with overblown links, infoboxes, navboxes, sidebars and like. Incidentally, I've just removed [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2010_Serbia_earthquake&diff=prev&oldid=1078604493 25 kB] of indiscriminate content here, and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=World_War_II_in_Yugoslavia&diff=prev&oldid=1078421225 5 kB] here that were just occupying screen estate without contributing anything to the articles, and probably without ever being read. IOW, I'd rather that you find another place to link the portals than potentially thousands of "See also" sections cue sports articles.<br>As for the policy-based reasons: [[WP:ORPHAN]] only mentions articles, and does not mention portals even once. I don't see why a portal should not be orphaned from the article space. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 13:12, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
::While we disagree, thanks for your candid response. I think that the [[:Crucible curse]] article only benefits from the portal link. It's a neat topic about how every snooker world champion never realized it the next year. I understand your perspective, but please consider leaving the portal link in place for this article. FWIW, it is listed in the Selected articles section of the portal, and it's a great topic. Long live the Cue sports portal. Hurrah, hurrah, hurrah! <span class="smallcaps" style="font-variant:small-caps;">[[User:Northamerica1000|North America]]<sup>[[User talk:Northamerica1000|<span style="font-size: x-small;">1000</span>]]</sup></span> 13:26, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 
== Kosovo country status and border ==
 
You're wrong here about Kosovo. Yes the consensus was all about how to talk about its northern and eastern border primarily, and the consensus was to treat Kosovo as a fully fledged country per the neutral perspective, and not as some disputed territory in limbo per the pro-Serb POV. --[[User:Thelostranger|Thelostranger]] ([[User talk:Thelostranger|talk]]) 12:54, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
 
== [[Sava]] ==
 
You were technicly correct reverting ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sava&diff=791300575&oldid=791297212]). You evidently didn't check the source that was subsequently added ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sava&diff=791789032&oldid=791300575]). It does not exactly support the claim.
 
I am trying to figure out what it is, though, so I should ask for references elsewhere. [[Special:Contributions/89.15.236.51|89.15.236.51]] ([[User talk:89.15.236.51|talk]]) 22:49, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
 
== Short-track ==
 
Hello. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Short-track_speed_skating_at_the_Winter_Olympics&diff=1073358116&oldid=1073357986 This edit] in concert with a move you did, disabled several links from the infobox. I assume this happened because these six articles, 2002–2022 (example: [[Short track speed skating at the 2022 Winter Olympics]]) have no hyphen in their titles nor redirects as such. I have for now removed the hyphen you had added [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Short-track_speed_skating_at_the_Winter_Olympics&diff=1085263197&oldid=1085262957 here], and that restored the links.
 
Just letting you know in case there is more to do relating to all this to get it correct as intended. In other words, do the 2002–2022 articles still need to be moved to include the hyphen in their titles? --[[User:DB1729|DB1729]] ([[User talk:DB1729|talk]]) 12:57, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
 
:[[User:DB1729|DB1729]]: Thanks for spotting and fixing that. As far as I know, there has been a follow-up RM somewhere for the short-track Olympic events, but it was presumably closed as unsuccessful. Can't find it though (perhaps {{u|HandsomeFella}} would know). If I'm right, that leaves us with an inconsistent naming scheme for the sport... oh well. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 12:14, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
::There's some kind of dynamics on the infobox there. If the article exists, correctly spelled, there's a link to it, otherwise not.
::We need to fix consistency here. I'll see when I can get it done. [[User:HandsomeFella|HandsomeFella]] ([[User talk:HandsomeFella|talk]]) 13:37, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
:::It seems to me, if the effort to rename has stalled, then simply creating redirects with the hyphen as applicable would have solved the problem, or at least it would've solved the problem I had noticed. [[User:DB1729|DB1729]] ([[User talk:DB1729|talk]]) 14:21, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
:::...but yes, a consistent naming scheme would be optimal if that can be done. [[User:DB1729|DB1729]] ([[User talk:DB1729|talk]]) 14:26, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 
== FAR for Belgrade ==
 
I have nominated [[Belgrade]] for a [[Wikipedia:Featured article review/Belgrade/archive2|featured article review here]]. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets [[Wikipedia:What is a featured article?|featured article criteria]]. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are [[Wikipedia:Featured article review|here]].<!--Template:FARMessage--> ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 04:35, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
 
==Page moves==
Hello, No such user,
 
Before doing a page move, please check "What links here". If there are redirects to the page, please leave a redirect when you move the article to its new title. Otherwise, valid redirects become broken and can end up deleted by one of our bots if no one fixes them in time. Alternatively, if you really do not want to leave a redirect, please manually fix all existing redirects so that they point to the correct target page. This is especially true if you are moving a popular or longstanding article that has been moved due to vandalism. Often there is a tendency to not want to leave a redirect from the "bad title" it was moved to but I've seen this result in dozens of broken redirects with some older articles. If you leave a redirect, then one of our more helpful bots can correct all of those redirects so they point back to the correct name. Many thanks! <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">[[User:Liz|'''''L'''''iz]]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">[[Special:Contributions/Liz|'''''Read!''''']] [[User talk:Liz|'''''Talk!''''']]</sup> 20:47, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
 
:{{ping|Liz}} Rest assured that I pay utmost attention to those details; I have moved thousands of pages (of course, I'm not immune from errors so feel free to point them out). Now, it seems that you misinterpreted some of my (granted, complicated) moves surrounding [[Bela Crkva (disambiguation)]]; it involved a double [[WP:PAGESWAP]]. However, {{no redirect|Bela Crkva, Banat}} should point to [[Bela Crkva]], as I did [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bela_Crkva,_Banat&diff=1090624194&oldid=1090622993 here] not to the disambiguation page as you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bela_Crkva,_Banat&diff=1090685407&oldid=1090624194 did].<br>What I don't to is to fix double redirects, which is the job of our bots. I'm not sure why they haven't catched up {{no redirect|Bela Crkva (Vojvodina)}} yet. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 07:21, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 
::Manually fixed double redirects. Apparently, I confused bots as well. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 07:40, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 
== Re Farux ==
 
Nsu, I the closer did not boldly move the title to Farux per NOGOODOPTIONS. NOGOODOPTIONS requires that there be a consensus against the old title but no consensus where to move it. I moved the article back to Farux in accordance with article titling policy noted in the move review and in my RM closure. Why did you make that up? Now the article stays at a title that has had no discussion nor consensus? Over a title that has been stable for more than 12 years? What ever. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I.&nbsp;Ellsworth</span>]]'''''&thinsp;,&nbsp;[[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r&nbsp;there</sup>]]&nbsp;<small>18:05, 16 June 2022 (UTC)</small>
:[[User:Paine Ellsworth|Paine]], I just favored the arguments of Colin M and Mellohi (supported by a couple other posters) that you cannot consider "Farux" to be a 'stable' or 'consensus' title – see [[WP:WEAKSILENCE]] and particularly the points #2 and #3 therein. After all, it's a village of 72 in the middle of nowhere, and it's been reasonably argued that no one in 12 years found it worthwhile to think about, let alone challenge the bad transliteration apparently originating somewhere from the GNIS database. Note that your move to Farux was reverted to Farukh by AntonSamuel, the first supporter of Parukh, i.e. to the title he does ''not'' support personally. So, there's no single substantial reason from [[WP:CRITERIA]] that supports the "Farux" title – you might as well have moved it to [[Piña Colada]] or whatever, it would be just as bad. We all agree it was a good-faith, nice try, but it did not work out in the end. My motive was just to cut that particular Gordian knot we often see on the MR – substantially, there's no consensus on the best title, but at least let's leave it at one that makes sense. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 20:56, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
::Against policy, but like I said: what ever. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I.&nbsp;Ellsworth</span>]]'''''&thinsp;,&nbsp;[[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r&nbsp;there</sup>]]&nbsp;<small>21:00, 16 June 2022 (UTC)</small>
I'm going to appeal to you one more time, because I've been thinking a lot about this and I don't understand your MRV closure. I've always respected your closes, because you're an experienced editor, however this time I think you're wrong. The whole entire reason that I took the situation to MRV was because I wanted to show the editor who move-warred with me and moved the page back to "Farukh" after I closed the RM that what he did was wrong and would not be supported at MRV. And I think the MRV bored that out. Sure there were a couple of editors who misguidedly went against policy, but I think I rebutted them effectively. So what really matters here is that 1) there is a fairly inexperienced editor who now thinks they can go against a closer's decision and move a page wherever they want, and 2) there is now an article on Wikipedia that is titled with a name that has not achieved consensus, when it should be titled according to policy with a name that actually has achieved consensus. So please help me to understand how the editor's move war with me is the right place to leave this? In other words, if you had found no consensus in that RM to either move to the proposed title or to keep the old title, and you had moved the page to its stable title, but then an inexperienced editor had reverted your page move, what would you have done? Just trying to understand and learn something here, my friend. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I.&nbsp;Ellsworth</span>]]'''''&thinsp;,&nbsp;[[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r&nbsp;there</sup>]]&nbsp;<small>01:36, 18 June 2022 (UTC)</small>
:[[User:Paine Ellsworth|Paine]], we're in the territory uncharted by policy. That page has ''never'' had a consensus title, but it obviously has to have one. That leaves us with three unsatisfactory choices:
:#The "stable" title Farux; yes, you moved it there in good faith, but it has been reasonably shown to be an incorrect transliteration from whatever language, failing all CRITERIA, and wasn't supported by any MR participant.
:#A correct Azeri transliteration [[Farukh]], where it currently resides. The problem is that it was attained by "first mover" advantage and some move-warring.
:#A correct Armenian transliteration [[Parukh]].
:While your revert to the stable title was within letter of the policy indeed, it has been challenged on on the substance, as simply ''incorrect'' and not having ''any'' support by either sources or editors. Which leaves us to pick another option as less bad than that one. So it has been picked somehow, and until a new move-war or a better argued RM emerges, let's leave it there. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 11:36, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
 
== Moved anyway ==
On 1 July 2021 you closed a move request for page [[Matter (standard)]] to [[Matter (connectivity protocol)]], because there was no consensus for the move. I agree with you, because Matter is more than just a connectivity protocol; rather, it is a standard that includes a protocol.
 
Subsequently on 15 June 2022‎ a user called ‪The Anome moved the page anyway.‬
 
‪Can I just move it back to its original name, or is there a process that needs to be followed? [[User:Betterkeks|Betterkeks]] ([[User talk:Betterkeks|talk]]) 09:13, 17 June 2022 (UTC)‬
 
:[[User:Betterkeks|Betterkeks]] – since the article title has never had a "certified" consensus, I suppose any bold move (such as The Anome's) is a fair game, procedurally speaking. So, if you disagree with the new title, you're free to revert it yourself per [[WP:BRD]], or ask for revert at the appropriate section in [[WP:RMTR]]. Of course, explaining why you disagree with that title on the talk page and/or edit summary would be nice as a courtesy; perhaps you can together find a better title (after all, not every title discussion ''has'' to go through RM). [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 09:23, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
 
== Sister (Sisters song) ==
 
Hi No such user! Apologies for the late follow-up -- as you closed the MR at [[Talk:S!sters]], would you also be able to move the associated article at [[Sister (Sisters song)]] to [[Sister (S!sters song)]]?--[[User: Yaksar|Yaksar]] [[User talk: Yaksar|(let's chat)]] 21:08, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
:[[User: Yaksar|Yaksar]]: you're technically right it should be moved, but frankly I can't be bothered. In the meantime, [[S!sters]] was merged into [[Germany in the Eurovision Song Contest 2019]], rendering spelling of the disambiguator pretty much irrelevant – there's no article or category we need to be consistent with. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 10:41, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 
== Regarding your recent edit of the article "In Soviet Russia" ==
 
Dear No such user, the joke "In Soviet Russia" would be purely political, if it was stated e.g. as follows: "in USSR" or "in Soviet Union" or the like. But it actually refers to the part of the former USSR that was populated predominantly by ethnic Russians (i.e. the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic).
 
Besides, according to the article, the joke is often "said with a heavy Russian accent" and "with English grammatical errors stereotypical of Russians", which means it is really referring to an ethnic stereotype, thus matching the definition given in the Wikipedia article "Ethnic joke".
 
I'd ask of you a favor to review your edit. [[User:Alexschneider250|Alexschneider250]] ([[User talk:Alexschneider250|talk]]) 08:39, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 
:{{ping|Alexschneider250}} Please use article talk pages for content discussion. I still do not see any ethnic stereotyping in what you describe that would justify its inclusion in the category, and it was also briefly discussed in the "Requested move 14 December 2020" at the talk page. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 08:44, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 
== Clarify revision of 1105279785 ==
 
I'd like some clarification of the undo [[Special:PermanentLink/1105281260|1105281260]].
 
First, thank you for the pointer to [[MOS:CQ]]. The guide is very clear: use straight quotes, not curly.
 
It seems to me, however, this is an instance of [[WP:IAR]] or as the introductory text to MOS states: "It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply."
 
Why do I think it is [[WP:IAR]]? Because the text in question is about the very topic of the historical convention of using ''single '''typographic''' quotes'' for glosses and how they're rendered. There is precedent too on Wikipedia, for example the article ''[[Quotation marks in English#Smart_quotes]]''.
 
No printed book I know of uses straight quotes for glosses, since they'd be confused with apostrophes. For example, the [[Oxford English Dictionary|OED]] online edition uses straight quotes too, with the exception of glosses, since they'd easily be confused with apostrophes.
 
If you're not convinced, I could as an alternative also include an example thumbnail of a book using this convention in the article. [[User:&#39;wɪnd|&#39;wɪnd]] ([[User talk:&#39;wɪnd|talk]]) 11:08, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 
:{{ping|&#39;wɪnd}} Generally, [[WP:IAR]] is applicable when everyone agrees that the end result is an improvement, even if not all rules have been followed to a iota. But here, leaving curly quotes in [[Gloss (annotation)]] would be at odds how we (rightly or wrongly) write glosses across Wikipedia (with straight single quotes, i.e. apostrophes). I have a certain linguistic background and I've personally changed dozens of glosses from various forms (usually double quotes) into straight single quotes across many articles.
:Now, I do trust you that curly quotes are more often/universally used for glosses in dictionaries, but you should probably raise that issue at [[WT:LINGUISTICS]] first, and if a consensus emerges, codify the exception at [[MOS:CQ]]. Actually, it's addressed in more detail at [[MOS:SINGLE]], which uses straight single quotes in the examples.
:I don't have a strong opinion on the issue, but I would regard mandating curly quotes on WP as a nuisance, since the risk of confusion with apostrophes in our typical contexts is negliglible. But if you have a typographical/linguistic source that unambiguously states that {{tq|glosses are typically enclosed in smart quotes in dictionaries, since straight quotes could be easily confused with apostrophes}}, please do include it in the [[Gloss (annotation)]] article (after all, we use smart quotes in ''[[Quotation marks in English#Smart_quotes]]''.) But if you just leave it assumed in the article like that, some pedant will eventually come and change it back. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 12:00, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
::@[[User:No such user|No such user]] Thank you. As a new Wikipedia user, your answer is very helpful and supportive to me. Thank you for clarifying things. I now see the complexity of this, which I didn't see before. [[User:&#39;wɪnd|&#39;wɪnd]] ([[User talk:&#39;wɪnd|talk]]) 12:20, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
::'''Update'''. I added a new topic on [[WT:LINGUISTICS]]. I couldn't find a source for {{tq|could easily be confused with apostrophes}} so far, my only evidence is precedence offline and online. [[User:&#39;wɪnd|&#39;wɪnd]] ([[User talk:&#39;wɪnd|talk]]) 13:33, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 
== Move discussion on [[Talk:North Circular Road]] ==
 
Hi,
 
It looks like you didn't fill this in correctly. This is what it says....
: "The result of the move request was: North Circular Road, London"
 
The page hasn't been moved to that title, so that doesn't appear to be what you meant. Please check and amend as necessary. — [[User:Smjg|Smjg]] ([[User talk:Smjg|talk]]) 13:46, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
 
:Thanks, fixed now. I mis-copied the RM close template and apparently forgot to preview the page. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 15:24, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
 
== Discussion participation ==
Recently I created the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Sports#Edition_number_column_of_results_summary_table_in_sporting_event_article Discussion]
 
Please participate in discsussion and give the opinion?
[[User:Footwiks|Footwiks]] ([[User talk:Footwiks|talk]]) 08:12, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 
== Please revert your Lesbos edit ==
 
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The entire point of my edit was that "Lesbos or Lesvos" is
- Unclear
- Grammatically problematic
- Looks terrible
- Overall just doesn't fit well
Please stop "cutting it back down". Most people aren't going to check the footnote and are just going to see this mess of a wording. It's ugly and unclear for most people. [[User:Amyipdev|Amyipdev]] ([[User talk:Amyipdev|talk]]) 14:52, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
 
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== [[Mrld]] ==
 
Hi. Please leave the tag until it passes through NPP. The tag is there to assist other reviewers who take a look at the article. Thank you. [[User:onel5969|'''<span style="color:#536895;">Onel</span><span style="color:#ffb300;">5969</span>''']] <sup>[[User talk:Onel5969|<i style="color:blue">TT me</i>]]</sup> 15:23, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 
== Stale RfC ==
 
Hi No such user. What is the procedure to be taken after a RfC goes stale? I can't find anything about this on Wikipedia policy. [[User:Super Dromaeosaurus|<span style="color:#0099FF;">Super</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Super Dromaeosaurus|<span style="color:#800080;">Ψ</span>]] [[User talk:Super Dromaeosaurus|<span style="color:#E60026;">Dro</span>]] 12:16, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
:[[User:Super Dromaeosaurus]]: I honestly don't know. I suppose, make a bold move and wait if anyone objects (like I did)? :) [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 12:29, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
==[[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|Speedy deletion]] nomination of [[:Attitude control (disambiguation)]]==
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== [[Talk:No man is an island]] ==
 
Hi, No such user. Could I inquire about your rationale for closing the RM at [[Talk:No man is an island]] as ''not moved''? By my count it's 2-1 explicit support/oppose, 1 implying an amount of support, 1 implying an amount of opposition. Wouldn't a relist make more sense there? <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- [[User:Tamzin|<span style="color:#E6007A">Tamzin</span>]]</span><sup>[''[[User talk:Tamzin|<span style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</span>]]'']</sup> (she&#124;they&#124;xe)</span> 10:01, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
:Hi {{u|Tamzin}}, sure. Actually, I was swayed by {{u|Joy}}'s analysis, who has not formally !voted, but provided a valuable input indicating that many users are content in learning the phrase's origin from the dab page and do not go further. I concede it was is an edge case, and there's no clear metrics what is "best" for readers, so everyone basically went by their hunch. While "no consensus" or "relist" were both viable options, I felt that we need much more than two hunches "for", one "against" and one "but" for a primary topic grab. And when in doubt, it is best to disambiguate. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 13:06, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
::With respect, NSU, that seems like a good reason to !vote, not a reason to close with consensus. You may have found Joy's argument persuasive, but the only other editor in the RM to address it rather saw it as a reason to move. I'm not saying there was necessarily a consensus to move here, although I think it was closer to that than to anything else. Would you consider relisting? <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- [[User:Tamzin|<span style="color:#E6007A">Tamzin</span>]]</span><sup>[''[[User talk:Tamzin|<span style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</span>]]'']</sup> (she&#124;they&#124;xe)</span> 22:18, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
:::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ANo_man_is_an_island&diff=1138151357&oldid=1138151305 Obliged.] However, I'm not sure if undo+{{tl|RM relist}} will trigger the RMCD bot to actually relist it at RM - {{u|Wbm1058}}? [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 08:33, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
::::Yes, that's the way to do it. {{thumbs up}} [[User:Wbm1058|wbm1058]] ([[User talk:Wbm1058|talk]]) 10:42, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
::::: [[User:Wbm1058|Thanks]]. Can we put some relisting instructions related with RM reopenings and post-Move Review actions... somwehere?? [[:Template:RM relist/doc]] or [[WP:RMRELIST]] look like good candidates. It's like third time I'm asking for your help in such matters, I'd prefer knowing how to fish. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 15:20, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::: The instructions at [[:Template:RM relist/doc]] or [[WP:RMRELIST]] are already pretty substantial and I think should already cover ''normal'' relistings which are done on open requested-moves which have never been closed. Let me know if there's something unclear to you about the normal relisting process for open RMs.
:::::: I think your issue is that the instructions are unclear on how to '''re-open and relist'''. That's best covered at [[WP:Move review]] and/or [[Wikipedia:Move review/Administrator instructions]]. Think of your situation as a "speedy, uncontested move review"; other than the lack of the formal process and the need to formally close the formal move review process, the instructions should be the same. {{ping|Paine Ellsworth}} is more active in move reviews and I think has closed many more of them than I have. Maybe he can help you with making the "reopen and relist" instructions there easier to follow. – [[User:Wbm1058|wbm1058]] ([[User talk:Wbm1058|talk]]) 19:54, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
::::::Yes, I do this frequently as I'm pretty malleable when it comes to no-consensus outcomes. I just revert my closure, add {{tls|RM relist}} to the end of the RM's opening statement after the nom's sig and past relists, and then publish. The RMCD bot does the rest. And yes, I do check that that from time to time. Awesome bot''!'' (Usually leave a note so other editors know what's happened.) '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I.&nbsp;Ellsworth</span>]]'''''&thinsp;,&nbsp;[[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'er&nbsp;there</sup>]]&nbsp;<small>20:34, 8 February 2023 (UTC)</small>
::::Thanks for hearing me out, NSU, and thanks to others for chipping in. I will just say, I've found that closing discussions is one of the most utterly thankless jobs on Wikipedia, with people quick to tell you if you did it wrong (or "wrong") and recognition infrequent for all thhe other times. So, I do thank you for the hard work you do. <code>:)</code> <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- [[User:Tamzin|<span style="color:#E6007A">Tamzin</span>]]</span><sup>[''[[User talk:Tamzin|<span style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</span>]]'']</sup> (she&#124;they&#124;xe)</span> 20:12, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
:::::If we do this for the enormous gratitude we receive, then we might want to rethink why we're here, Tamzin. Found [[WP:Expect no thanks|this essay]] a long time ago. Hope it helps''!''. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I.&nbsp;Ellsworth</span>]]'''''&thinsp;,&nbsp;[[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'er&nbsp;there</sup>]]&nbsp;<small>01:30, 10 February 2023 (UTC)</small>
 
== Re:[[Sting.com domain name dispute]] COI tag ==
 
Not too sure why this was removed? The article was written in large part by [[User:MichaelUrvan]], which appears to be Michael Urvan himself. The article as it reads today is very similar to the one [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sting.com_domain_name_dispute&oldid=379904627 here] in 2010, it has not been significantly improved over the years. Writing your own Wikipedia article is definitely a violation of [[WP:COI]], and I'm concerned that it may need serious copyediting to comply with [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:VERIFY]]. [[User:162 etc.|162 etc.]] ([[User talk:162 etc.|talk]]) 16:12, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
:[[User:162 etc.|162 etc.]]: Yes, I know it was written by Urvan himself, but it was some 15 years ago. I think it's ''irrelevant'' if the article reasonably conforms to policies ''now''. The question is, what is ''anyone'' supposed to do with the article having that information? If you're {{tq|concerned that it may need serious copyediting}} please elaborate specific concerns, or, better still, address them yourself. Now that the article has been refocused to the legal case rather than Urvan, I don't see particular problems, it's short and mostly factual. The tag was removed some 5 years ago, with no one objecting (granted, it's not a much-viewed article). Tags should be actionable, not used as "badges of shame". [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 11:32, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
::I'll note that the tag was removed by [[User:MichaelUrvan]]. The COI concerns were never addressed. You're correct that this is a mostly unimportant article (my earlier suggestion was to send it to AfD) and not many people are interested in improving it, including myself. [[User:162 etc.|162 etc.]] ([[User talk:162 etc.|talk]]) 17:08, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
:::I made some edits. I was able to see a COI problem. Namely, the wording looked as if it tried to disassociate, as much as possible, Sting from 'sting' by consistently referring to him, in a contrived way, that is unhelpful to readers, as Gordon Sumner. At the same, the time partially unsourced history of Urvan's online/gaming activities tries to establish, as strongly as possible, his personal connection with the nickname Sting. A pretty ridiculous article, but I don't think that a top tag can help here. —[[User talk:Alalch E.|Alalch E.]] 23:29, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
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:{{ping|Raydann}} Thanks for the invitation, but not interested. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 12:42, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
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== You closed the RM as "Moved" but forgot to move ==
 
The RM at [[2023 Nagorno-Karabakh clashes]] was closed as "'''Moved''' to [[2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh]]" but the page wasn't actually moved? [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#0B0080;">Chaotic Enby</span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#A55858;">talk</span>]]) 22:23, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
:Yeah, it required administrator intervention but slipped through the cracks for some time. It's fixed now. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 11:50, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 
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== Apology ==
 
Hey @[[User:No such user|No such user]], remember me? Its been a long time, almost 2 years. The guy who edit-warred with you and was [[User talk:Overthrow-dictator#November 2022|blocked]]. I have come to apologize, and I know I'm late, but I just wanna do this to let you know I haven't forgot. Respond if you can. ''[[Overthrow of Slobodan Milošević|<b><span style="color:#0000FF">Overthrow-dictator</span></b>]]'' <sup>([[User:Overthrow-dictator|user]] / [[User talk:Overthrow-dictator|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Overthrow-dictator|contribs]])</sup> 10:58, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
:Thanks for your sincerity, [[User:Overthrow-dictator|Overthrow-dictator]], and no hard feelings. I'm mostly retired by now though. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user#top|talk]]) 12:20, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
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