Content deleted Content added
Huntthetroll (talk | contribs) |
|||
| (18 intermediate revisions by 10 users not shown) | |||
Line 7:
|action1oldid=318274658
}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|
{{WikiProject Military history|class=C
<!-- B-Class 5-criteria checklist -->
Line 16:
|B5 <!-- Supporting materials --> =y
|German=y|Classical=y|WWII=y}}
{{WikiProject Politics
}}
== Reference/content modifications ==
Line 28 ⟶ 26:
== Mention of the hand gesture in old sources ==
Saying some kind of right hand gesture is not mentioned in any source is a bit of a stretch. I think that segment should be rewritten. I know of at least one mention of right hand gesture in "Judean War" written by Josephus. Here's what he says when describing rituals of Roman soldiers upon going to campaign and breaking camp:...''Then does the crier stand at the general’s right hand, and asks them thrice, in their own tongue, whether they be now ready to go out to war or not. To which they reply as often, with a loud and cheerful voice, saying, “We are ready.” And this they do almost before the question is asked them: they do this as filled with a kind of martial fury, and at the same time that they so cry out, they lift up their right hands also.'' <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/178.149.0.110|178.149.0.110]] ([[User talk:178.149.0.110#top|talk]]) 11:27, 1 March 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:In the early hand gesture, about ancient Rome, talking about the most recent use of the hand gesture. Obviously anyone reaching this page knows the gesture and its use. But then here they are having the most modern use, in the tab that talk is suppose to talk about its first use. [[Special:Contributions/108.183.194.218|108.183.194.218]] ([[User talk:108.183.194.218|talk]]) 00:24, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
== Another Description in Josephus ==
Line 36:
:{{tq|the gesture was clearly identical or very similar to that under discussion}}: I personally would disagree that that's clearly identical; there are a lot of ways to stretch out a right hand. But it doesn't matter what you or I think; neither of us, nor any other Wikipedia editor, gets to make that call. Doing so is [[WP:OR|original research]], which is prohibited on Wikipedia. Simply citing Josephus isn't enough; you need a secondary, reliable, scholarly source that ''talks about that passage in Josephus being evidence'' for the modern "Roman salute" in antiquity. Josephus is a [[WP:PRIMARY|primary source]]; we need a secondary source. As the NOR policy says: {{tq|Any ''interpretation'' of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation.}} You are interpreting that the passage in Josephus is relevant to the subject of the modern Roman salute; thus, you need a reliable secondary source to back that up. [[User:Writ Keeper|Writ Keeper]] [[User Talk: Writ Keeper|⚇]][[Special:Contributions/Writ_Keeper|♔]] 21:27, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
After studying Wikipedia's policy on original research I believe that it would be acceptable to add the Josephus quote without comment. It is a description of a Roman salute so it should be included in the article entitled "Roman salute." I have been unable to find a secondary source but Wikipedia does allow primary sources to be quoted as long as I don't include analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis. Does that sound reasonable? [[User:Bikejeff|Bikejeff]] ([[User talk:Bikejeff|talk]]) 17:15, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
:No, because the subject of this article is the specific gesture that is referred to, mostly incorrectly, as a "Roman salute". It is not an article about the general practice of saluting in Ancient Rome; such practices are discussed only in a small part of the article to provide background knowledge about the modern gesture. So, including the Josephus quote ''at all'' is implicitly performing analysis and interpretation, since by discussing the Josephus quote in this article, you're interpreting the gesture to be the same as that which is discussed by the article, since after all, if the Josephus quote ''doesn't'' refer to the specific gesture, then it is irrelevant to the article. [[User:Writ Keeper|Writ Keeper]] [[User Talk: Writ Keeper|⚇]]
[[Special:Contributions/Writ_Keeper|♔]] 20:01, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
== Statue of Marcus Aurelius ==
In the famous bronze equestrian statue of [[Marcus Aurelius]], the figure's right hand is extended in a gesture of (apparent) salutation. We can quibble over the precise angle of that gesture; but to say there is no reference to a gesture of salute in Roman literature or culture is obviously not true. It need not be interpreted as a strictly miltary greeting, a simple wave of ''hello'' is also a salute.
[[User:Nuttyskin|Nuttyskin]] ([[User talk:Nuttyskin|talk]]) 13:38, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
:The article doesn't say that there is no reference to any gesture of salute in Roman literature or culture; on the contrary, it goes into some detail about that subject in the first section and indeed provides [[:File:Statue-Augustus.jpg|this statue]] as an example. What it ''does'' say is that there is no reference to ''this specific gesture'' in Roman literature. Assuming you're talking about [[:File:Estàtua eqüestre de Marc Aureli (176 dC), Museu Capitolí (Roma). Vista general de la sala d'exposició.jpg|this statue]] of Marcus Aurelius, that is not obviously the "Roman salute" as discussed by this article, and regardless, we'd need a reliable source that connects the two anyway, not just [[WP:OR|our own analysis]]. [[User:Writ Keeper|Writ Keeper]] [[User Talk: Writ Keeper|⚇]][[Special:Contributions/Writ_Keeper|♔]] 13:48, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
== Use of the term "Fascist salute" in the lede ==
Since an anonymous editor has [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Roman_salute&diff=prev&oldid=1231724702 objected] to calling this gesture the "fascist salute" in the lede, despite the inclusion of multiple sources that [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Huntthetroll&diff=prev&oldid=1231728624 refer] to it as such, I would like to seek editors' consensus: should the lede state that the "Roman salute" is also known as the "Fascist salute," as in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Roman_salute&oldid=1230647211 this revision], or not? Let's hear your reasoning. [[User:Huntthetroll|Huntthetroll]] ([[User talk:Huntthetroll|talk]]) 23:02, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
:Obviously, the IP editor's argument holds no water whatsoever; the article goes to great lengths to point out that this gesture is *not* of Roman origin. I certainly see plenty of "fascist salute" in the sources; examples include [https://web.archive.org/web/20100520150731/http://www.apaclassics.org/AnnualMeeting/03mtg/abstracts/Winkler.html Winkler (2003)], and [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1506262/Im-a-fascist-not-a-racist-says-Paolo-di-Canio.html various] [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4158591.stm news] [https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=SRUyAAAAIBAJ&pg=931,2855714 articles] [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/italy-fascist-salute-rome-rally-acca-larentia-killings-giorgia-meloni-rcna132992 as well]. There are a few other phrases in the sources, such as "Hitler salute" and "nazi salute", but those don't seem to be as well attested. I'd say there's plenty of source support for "Fascist salute". [[User:Writ Keeper|Writ Keeper]] [[User Talk: Writ Keeper|⚇]][[Special:Contributions/Writ_Keeper|♔]] 03:20, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
::Thanks for taking the time to contribute. [[User:Huntthetroll|Huntthetroll]] ([[User talk:Huntthetroll|talk]]) 16:57, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
:There isn't even an argument against it. This is overwhelmingly also known as Fascist salute and Fascist salute already redirects here. [[Special:Contributions/2A01:E11:17:40B0:95D2:6EF5:50D6:9BA8|2A01:E11:17:40B0:95D2:6EF5:50D6:9BA8]] ([[User talk:2A01:E11:17:40B0:95D2:6EF5:50D6:9BA8|talk]]) 05:11, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
::Thank you for adding to the discussion. [[User:Huntthetroll|Huntthetroll]] ([[User talk:Huntthetroll|talk]]) 16:57, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
| |||