Talk:Boris Berezovsky (businessman): Difference between revisions

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{{ITN talk|24 March|2013}}
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==Unprotected==
 
THE CLAIM THAT HE WAS ASSASSINATED BY FSB AGENTS IS ABSOLUTE NONSENSE. THE FSB IS THE RUSSIAN FEDERAL POLICE FORCE EQUIVALENT TO THE AMERICAN FBI OR THE CANADIAN RCMP. IF RUSSIAN FOREIGN AGENTS WERE ACTIVE IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY THEN IT WOULD BE THIS ORGANISATION WHO WOULD BE HYPOTHETICALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR SUCH ACTIONS. CF. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Service_%28Russia%29
OR INDEED THE MILITARY INTELLIGENCE SECTION, CF.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GRU
PEOPLE REALLY SHOULD GET THEIR FACTS RIGHT BEFORE MAKING SUCH CONJECTURAL CLAIMS REGARDING RUSSIA. SOMEBODY WHO IS QUOTING THE "FSB" AS AN ORGANISATION INTERNATIONALLY ACTIVE OBVIOUSLY DOES NOT UNDERSTAND ANYTHING ABOUT RUSSIA OR ITS HISTORY. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/46.127.252.36|46.127.252.36]] ([[User talk:46.127.252.36|talk]]) 17:43, 23 March 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
 
Yeah well it's not official "FSB", it's "Putin's men" <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/37.112.119.209|37.112.119.209]] ([[User talk:37.112.119.209|talk]]) 18:03, 23 March 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Given the [[WP:ANI]] discussion. However, note that any future edit-warring on a BLP will undoubtedly mean the restoration of the full protection. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (t)]] [[Special:Contributions/Black_Kite|(c)]] 00:40, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
 
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::::Your [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Boris_Berezovsky_%28businessman%29&action=historysubmit&diff=451890579&oldid=451890077 edit summary] here says otherwise. The deletion of multiple scholarly legal facts seems more like a case of [[WP:IDONTLIKEIT]]. --[[User:Russavia|Russavia]] <sup>[[User talk:Russavia|Let's dialogue]]</sup> 21:03, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
*'''note''' - [[User:Russavia]] has now requested input from the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Russia&diff=451903186&oldid=451488549 WikiProject Russia] - [[User:Off2riorob|Off2riorob]] ([[User talk:Off2riorob|talk]]) 20:12, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
*Not a my favourite topic to meddle in, but really, if Berezovsky is mentioned in the whole bunch of sources connecting him to libel tourism, and there are no sources which defend the opposite view, why delete it from the article? Also, I should say that enforcing consensus by sheer numbers against all logic and posting inappropriate stuff on talk pages is not the way to handle contentious issues. [[User:Greyhood|<fontspan colorstyle="color:darkgrey;">Grey</fontspan><fontspan colorstyle="color:grey;">Hood</fontspan>]] [[User talk:Greyhood|<fontspan colorstyle="color:black;"><sup>Talk</sup></fontspan>]] 22:21, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
 
Russavia, i removed reference to '''terrorism''' from the section subtitle. This is an unsourced strong allegation with serious ramifications. WP:BLP advises that such material should be '''removed immediately without waiting for discussion'''--[[User:Kolokol1|Kolokol1]] ([[User talk:Kolokol1|talk]]) 23:18, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
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== BLP violation ==
 
{{editprotectedFPER|answered=yes}}
In the section [[Boris_Berezovsky_(businessman)#Libel_suits_in_UK]] can an admin please remove:
 
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So, "in 1999 Putin had secretly visited a villa in Spain belonging to Berezovsky". Something is missing (let's add it?). Here is it: [[User:Hodja Nasreddin|Biophys]] ([[User talk:Hodja Nasreddin|talk]]) 03:10, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
 
Several press reports alleged that [[Boris Berezovsky]], [[Alexander Voloshin]] and GRU general [[Anton Surikov]] met with [[Shamil Basayev]] in France in June or July 1999 to plan [[Invasion of Dagestan (1999)|the Dagestan incursion]] <ref> [[David Satter]]. ''Darkness at Dawn: The Rise of the Russian Criminal State.'' [[Yale University Press]], 2003, {{ISBN |0-300-09892-8}}, pages 267-268 </ref><ref name="Dunlop1">[http://www.peaceinthecaucasus.org/reports/paper_dunlop.htm The Second Russo-Chechen War Two Years On] - by John B. Dunlop, ACPC, October 17, 200</ref><ref name="Klebnikov"> Paul Klebnikov: Godfather of the Kremlin: The Decline of Russia in the Age of Gangster Capitalism, {{ISBN |0-15-601330-4}}</ref><ref name="Pribylovsky">[http://www.lib.ru/HISTORY/FELSHTINSKY/naslednik.txt The Operation "Successor"] by Vladimir Pribylovsky and Yuriy Felshtinsky (in Russian).</ref>. Allegedly, Udugov proposed to start the Dagestan war to provoke the Russian response, topple the Chechen president Maskhadov and establish new [[Islamic republic]] made of Chechnya and Ingushetia that would be friendly to Russia. A transcript of the conversation was published in [[Moskovsky Komsomolets]] in September, 1999.<ref> "Death of a Dissident", page 189.</ref>. Surikov was allegedly a GRU curator of Basayev during the [[Georgian–Abkhazian conflict]].<ref name="Glucksmann"> [http://prima-news.ru/eng/news/articles/2005/3/11/31434.html Western leaders betray Aslan Maskhadov] - by Andre Glucksmann. Prima-News, March 11, 2005</ref><ref name="Basaev"> [http://www.jamestown.org/publications_details.php?volume_id=416&issue_id=3848&article_id=2371430 CHECHEN PARLIAMENTARY SPEAKER: BASAEV WAS G.R.U. OFFICER] The Jamestown Foundation, September 08, 2006</ref><ref name="Fuller">[http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/03/533b2aa8-dfbd-4837-9dfe-ec64e3206aa6.html Analysis: Has Chechnya's Strongman Signed His Own Death Warrant?] - by Liz Fuller, RFE/RL, March 1, 2005</ref>.
 
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**{{Charlie Rose view|2912|Boris Berezovsky}}
**{{IMDb name|2281605|Boris Berezovsky}}
**{{Worldcat id|[//worldcat.org/identities/lccn-n85-48975| Works by or about Boris Berezovsky}}] in libraries ([[WorldCat Identities (identifier)|WorldCat]] catalog)
Well, let's see. His '''official site'''. Yeah, I can see why THAT would be irrelevant. Encyclopaedia Britannica? Most people consider that the "gold standard" of non-crowd-sourced encyclopedias, well worth reading. C-SPAN, Charlie Rose, and IMDb? Oh right - let's NOT, by ANY means, encourage our readers to watch the man himself talking. And WorldCat? Books by the man himself, as well as books about him? Heavens! Readers might make up their own minds, as opposed to believing whatever this little "consensus" of "Wikipedians" (aka Russavia, who brags about to remove every single External link which presents anypresenting the "correct POV") believes. Can't have that! The sheep must be TOLD what to believe! No further reading allowed! They must be firmly instructed (Russavia again) to wade through all the tabloid junk in Google News - knowing full well they DON'T want to do that, which is why they came to Wikipedia in the first place. But you just keep on being snarky about our users, Russavia, and show as much contempt for them as you feel. '''Look guys, you're on your own.''' You clearly have Jimmy Wales's full support to excise Every Single Viewpoint other than your own from this article, and every other article, spinning them to your heart's content. Go for it. Destroy Wikipedia's reputation. Drive off more editors. And I hope you get EXACTLY what you have coming. Unfortunately, so will everyone else. [[Special:Contributions/75.59.206.69|75.59.206.69]] ([[User talk:75.59.206.69|talk]]) 18:11, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 
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I understand that the cause of Mr. Berezovsky's death being suicide is now under investigation by the British authorities. I also heard that a wire was discovered wrapped around his throat, but my source on the latter is second-hand. [[User:Dick Kimball|Dick Kimball]] ([[User talk:Dick Kimball|talk]]) 11:47, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
:Wikipedia has a strict policy against hearsay. Do you have any reliable sources to contribute? [[User:LokiiT|LokiiT]] ([[User talk:LokiiT|talk]]) 22:27, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 
"Decisions trteffen maid and boys" - as Egor scale regarding Berezovskiy funeral. Yes, if the health of Russia's political damage Spins Smocke [[User:DummyNr345678|DummyNr345678]] ([[User talk:DummyNr345678|talk]]) 11:31, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
::It's been two months without a word and his body has been buried. I think it's safe to assume the investigation is over. [[User:LokiiT|LokiiT]] ([[User talk:LokiiT|talk]]) 20:05, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
::Ilgiz, the link you supplied is not a mainstream source, and it's not a widely supported view. Moreover, it was written over a month ago with no follow ups. Time to let go of the conspiracy theories for once, sometimes people who lose everything really do end up killing themselves. [[User:LokiiT|LokiiT]] ([[User talk:LokiiT|talk]]) 09:28, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
::: I argue for unbiased itemization of existing opinions in this article rather than making conclusions. "Suicide by hanging" did not gather wide-spread acceptance to receive a prominent spot in the article. That Earth moves did, in the context of other articles. --[[User:Ilgiz|ilgiz]] ([[User talk:Ilgiz|talk]]) 15:32, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
:::: Wikipedia does not strive to represent all viewpoints evenly. Fringe conspiracy theories with no evidence, that aren't even represented by the mainstream media, do not get mention. The official cause of death has been stated and the investigation has been concluded; his body has been buried. If new evidence comes out at some point in the future, we will worry about it then. Until then, wikipedia cannot be used as a vehicle for conspiracy theories. [[User:LokiiT|LokiiT]] ([[User talk:LokiiT|talk]]) 22:35, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
::::: The "cause of death" might guess the immediate cause but not the actor. The AP article by your "suicide by hanging" edit does not say that it was suicide. My change[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Boris_Berezovsky_%28businessman%29&diff=557743463&oldid=557613478] removed a generalization that did not come from the reference. [[:ru:Юлий Дубов|Yuli Dubov]] expressed disbelief in an opinion that Berezovski killed himself, http://www.sovsekretno.ru/articles/id/3559/ --[[User:Ilgiz|ilgiz]] ([[User talk:Ilgiz|talk]]) 23:36, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::: Maybe we should remove the fact that the Earth revolves around the sun from wikipedia because some individuals refuse to believe this to be true. Your're not being rational here; all evidence points to suicide. There is no ongoing investigation, which means that the burden of proof is on you to present evidence against suicide. Certain individuals close to him not believing is not evidence. [[User:LokiiT|LokiiT]] ([[User talk:LokiiT|talk]]) 00:31, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::The reason to believe that Berezovsky's death was a suicide was that he was broke, so, given his values, he had nothing more to live for; whereas no one (e.g. Russia) had any reason to kill him, since he was not capable of stirring up any trouble anymore. Still, as far as I know, it is unusual to find the body of someone who has hung himself lying on the floor, which is apparently what happened in this case. Not getting that part of the story straight can be chalked up to the incompetence of the English police and press however, I'd say, as opposed to the finding of death by suicide being wrong.
:::::::I have never seen such a long lead in a Wikipedia article, by the way. – [[User:Herzen|Herzen]] ([[User talk:Herzen|talk]]) 03:58, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 
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==Assassination requests==
 
Not really sure what [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Boris_Berezovsky_(businessman)&diff=863953622&oldid=855139586 this edit] was about.
 
Berezovsky has apparently attempted to organize assassinations, but he has failed those attempts. It's evident from the following exchange between Petr Aven ("А") and Stanislav Belkovskiy ("Б") in Petr Aven's book "Время Березовского":
 
{{Quote
|text=Б: Понимаете, я исхожу из того, что граница между добром и злом проходит не между разными людьми – она проходит внутри одного человека. И внутри меня она тоже проходит, и внутри Березовского она проходила. Ведь не случайно убийства ему практически не удавались.
 
А: Он просто ничего организовать не умел, поэтому и не удавались.
 
Б: Ну, с одной стороны так, а если сказать по-другому, то Господь Бог не давал ему совершить этого страшного греха. Господь уберег его. Это значит, Господь Бог его пожалел и оценил некие плюсы, которые в нем были. Я не Господь Бог, конечно, но я могу эту логику транслировать и на себя. Я оценил его плюсы настолько высоко, что позволял себе закрыть глаза на его минусы, тем более что ни в каких авантюрных проектах я не участвовал.
}}
 
It was 1990s Russia. If you disagree with that information, you are rewriting history.
 
[[User:Document hippo|Document hippo]] ([[User talk:Document hippo|talk]]) 01:13, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
:Yes, there were various ''rumors'' and mutual accusations of oligarchs who did not like each other, but we need books by 3rd party historians to include such significant and highly controversial claims. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 17:25, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 
:: The claims by Korzhakov are specifically mentioned in a history book by [[Paul Klebnikov]] — a journalist murdered for his writing.
:: That said, I think you have a point as regards the controversial aspects of some of the cited information, so I have added the denials of Korzhakov's information by Boris Berezovsky. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion! I believe [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Boris_Berezovsky_%28businessman%29&type=revision&diff=897628585&oldid=897621321 the updated revision of that section] currently meets the standards of Wikipedia. -- [[User:Document hippo|Document hippo]] ([[User talk:Document hippo|talk]]) 10:07, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
:::I am sorry, but you did not improve the sourcing at all. You only added that Berezovskiy dismissed this claim. Yes, obviously. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 21:48, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
 
== Opening to the page ==
My edition was reverted for apparently not being constructive but I tried to make it consistent with other articles. [[User:JohnLogan1600|JohnLogan1600]] ([[User talk:JohnLogan1600|talk]]) 17:53, 13 October 2019 (UTC)