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From: vfr750@netcom.com (Will Hartung)
Subject: Re: Why lisp failed in the marketplace
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Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:26:57 GMT
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papresco@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod) writes:

>I think that the syntax of Lisp and Scheme are really a big part of what
>frightens people off. I can show you some ML code, and it has nice big
>function declarations, and the if/then/else constructs are familiar,
>patterns are a little weird-looking, but you expect some weird stuff in
>any new language. But ML is a functional programming language: it just uses
>syntax that is closer to mainstream programming languages.

A lot of this is based upon, I believe, first impressions. At a
glance, Lisp looks so different to someone experienced in a more
conventional language, they immediately make it more difficult because
it LOOKs like its more difficult.

>But until you pick up a Lisp or Scheme book it really does look like Greek:
>car, cdr, lambda, "if" with no visually obvious else or then.  I'm not
>sure what to do about that at this point. Does it make sense to define the
>semantics of a programming language and its syntax separately, so we could
>have an alternate Scheme encoding that looked like ML without the patterns or
>Dylan?

Absolutely not! It is one of the beauties of the language, to me. It
is SO consistent, because of its SIMPLE syntax. No periods,
semi-colons and asterisks to muddy the waters. My favorite Pascal
error message "Semi-colon required." makes me scream "Well! PUT ONE IN
(stupid machine)".

Lisps syntax is simple, clear, OBVIOUS (once you know the secret....oh
wait..THERE ISN'T ONE!), and elegant. The major Lisp challenges are
programming idiom and, parTICularly with CL, vocabulary.

Of course, these can not really be taught, per se, they can only be
exposed to the student who learns them through use.

Its like giving someone a pile of Lego(tm) Bricks.

"What can I build with them?"

"Anything you want!"

"But how do I start?"

"Why, with your first brick!"

>It really seems like a waste to invent a whole new programming language to
>make Scheme's and Lisp's syntaxes more approachable for Joe Programmer.

Well, you know, that's the real trick. See, while there is a altruistic
side of me, I don't care THAT much about Joe Programmer. I care about
me. (That's the selfish side). Lisp is good for me, I think. I want to
not waste my time worrying about details that are not pertinent to my
task. 

But, Lisp is not Mainstream. Lisp is not cascaded in glossy ads across the
printed spectrum. Lisp is not Blessed By Bill. So, it is not
"INSTANTLY OBVIOUS" to be a viable option for programming development
in my current professional environments. 

I would like Lisp to appeal to Joe Progammer so that it would become
more mainstream, more glossy ads, and closer to Bill. That makes it
easier for ME to work in the language. 

I appreciate Eriks point about not WANTING more Joe Programmers
jumping in the pool. Since Lisp is a little more unconventional, less
mainstream, only truly motivated people focus on it, so one could
almost say that what Lisp programmers ARE available are better at what
they do, because they WANT to be where they are, and need to work at
it. 

Versus VB/C/C++/etc programmers who are there because it is the PLACE
to be, and any way they can convince themselves that they know enough
to put the bullet-point on their resume' is all they need to get
through the door.

Of course not all programmers are like this. They aren't all complete
dolts...but there are a LOT of 90 Day wonders who just finished "XYZ
in 21 Days", and feel they're bullet-point compliant. I've seen them,
my company has hired them, and I've had to fix their ******* code
after we've "let them go".

So...no, I really don't want Lisp for Joe Sixpack. I want Lisp for me,
and I'd like it an option where it works for me, my company, and its
clients. It's not there, yet. *I'm* not there yet. But one way or
another, it will be paying me in the next year or two.

-- 
Will Hartung - Rancho Santa Margarita. It's a dry heat. vfr750@netcom.com
1990 VFR750 - VFR=Very Red    "Ho, HaHa, Dodge, Parry, Spin, HA! THRUST!"
1993 Explorer - Cage? Hell, it's a prison.                    -D. Duck
