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From: lr-lang@csm.uwe.ac.uk (Bob Lang 3P21 x3172)
Subject: Re: Comparison of languages for CS1 and CS2
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 11:44:49 GMT
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In article <3rutid$ohf@felix.seas.gwu.edu>, mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman) writes:
> In article <EACHUS.95Jun16171929@spectre.mitre.org>,
> Robert I. Eachus <eachus@spectre.mitre.org> wrote:
> 
> >    The whole philosophy behind the design of Ada laid bare in two
> >lines.  Good going Rob.  At this rate it may even be possible to teach
> >software engineering in CS1 soon. ;-)
> 
> Well, we can teach it until we're blue in the face, but the students 
> still wanna get on those keyboards and hack away.:-)
> 
> >    (Seriously, before Mike Feldman jumps on me.  It has always been
> >possible to teach beginning programmers all the good software
> >engineering habits.  What I have despaired of is teaching them WHY
> >those habits are so necessary, until they have tried to maintain a
> >large application.)
> 
> Well, of course. We teach conventional engineering in the small, too.
> How many undergraduate civil engineers _actually_ build or maintain
> a bridge? Yet we don't seem to feel guilty about teaching _them_ the
> fundamentals, the math, the design methods, and try to get them
> to use them in class-size projects. We tell them it scales up, but
> they don't appreciate it till they're out there.

I don't know about civil engineering, but bad programming habits DON'T
scale up successfully.  Lot's of my students don't/can't/won't
understand that you can only build big systems using good methods.  I
can't say I necessarily blame them.  Looking at it from a student
perspective, they've got a (complex to them, trivial to us) program to
write in a limited number of hours, fighting with other students to
get on the equipment.  This program is just one assignment in a whole
range of course work that they're expected to do.  Of course, they're
going to take the easiest way if it gets the job done relatively
quickly, even though it only gets a bare pass.  The time freed can
then be used on another assignment.  Unfortunately, this only
re-inforces the bad habits we (as teachers) don't like, and causes the
students more problems later in university life.  As I write this, I'm
becoming aware that we teachers are a significant cause of the problem.
> 
> [much snipped]
> 
> The expectations are simply different. The software industry seems to
> want fully trained (I _mean_ that word) people, straight outta school.
> The idea that industry should invest in the training, while academia
> handles the _educating_, seems to really annoy our industry.
> 
I thought this was only the case in Britain :-)

The government is pandering to this opinion by forcing universities to
take ever increasing numbers of students each year.  The excuse being that
we (Britain that is) need a highly educated work force to compete in the
next century; the hidden agenda being that a student at college is one less
on the unemployment statistics; the reality being that universities are
finding it harder and harder to cope with increasing student numbers and
decreasing resources.

> At the risk of beating a really dead horse:
> 
> Maybe if our industry got as involved in curriculum development and
> accreditation activities, the way the other engineering fields do,
> we'd have an easier time communicating. E-mail me for details.
> 

I'd be worried that "industry" (a sweeping generalisation) would
demand a curriculum of 3 years C/C++ programming in Windows ;-) In
other words, demanding specific training in today's technology - after
all, there will always be a fresh supply of graduates ready trained to
handle tomorrow's technology :-(

Wretched isn't it?

Bob Lang  - University of WOE

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     University of the West Of England	               	 //_- _ - _/- =/     
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