Newsgroups: comp.lang.scheme
Path: cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!news2.near.net!news.mathworks.com!udel!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!rosevax!reddwarf!grante
From: grante@reddwarf.rosemount.com (Grant Edwards)
Subject: Re: HATE
Message-ID: <1994Nov11.212222.15606@rosevax.rosemount.com>
Sender: news@rosevax.rosemount.com (Rosevax USENET News auto-admin account)
Nntp-Posting-Host: reddwarf
Organization: Fisher-Rosemount, Rosemount Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <JAFFER.94Nov4003723@jacal.zurich.ai.mit.edu> <JAFFER.94Nov9212943@jacal.zurich.ai.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 21:22:22 GMT
Lines: 121

Aubrey Jaffer (jaffer@zurich.ai.mit.edu) wrote:

:    He views usenet news as a write-only medium to which he posts his
:    proclamations from on high as if they are the revealed truth, and
:    he doesn't even deign to reply to, or even read, the replies
:    generated by his papalesque bulls.

: This is just the sort of unsubstantiated raving I was refering to in
: my previous post.

Unsubstantiated?  Several people who _do_ read news have confirmed
that RMS doesn't read news, he only posts it.  I can point to one of
RMS's hit-and-run, flame-bait postings if you want: the "Don't Use
Tcl" posting to comp.lang.tcl from about a month ago is still fresh in
my memory.  He can dictate to his followers what languages to use, but
when he tries to do it to the world in general he comes off sounding
like Bill Gates and it offends people.

: How can it be suprising that anyone (Mr. Stallman included) wouldn't
: want to read a continual stream of personal attacks against him
: (Mr. Edwards post being an example).  That isn't uncivility; it is
: sanity (more than I have).

It's not a personal attack, it's a specific complaint about the way
RMS posts flame-bait containing false statements and then refuses to
address valid technical questions about his mistakes.

:    Mr. Stallman has contributed much to the community, and for that I am
:    grateful,

: If you are grateful, then why do you so resent his postings which
: announce products or ask for volunteers?  If he didn't post
: announcements of projects you wouldn't have heard about them.

I don't resent posting the announcements of products or requests for
volunteers.  I resent it when he posts unwarranted and technically
inaccurate attacks on the works of others.

: Announcements and calls for volunteers from other people do not
: usually generate replies (other than email) and many people do post
: them without reading a group.  But you single out Mr. Stallman for
: abuse.  You begrudge him the same rights the rest of us have.  A call
: for volunteers which the uninterested are free to ignore becomes some
: sort of obsession with you.

I don't begrudge RMS a damn thing.  He's free to post to usenet and I'm
free to bitch about the way he does it.  Likewise, he's more than
welcome to flame me into oblivion for my posts.  But he won't, because
he doesn't read the replies of people who try to argue against his
attacks.

:    but that doesn't mean he should be excused from the expectation
:    that he posses a few manners if he wishes to be liked by others.
:    If he doesn't care about being liked then fine, let him continue
:    to act the way he has in the past -- but I suggest you not worry
:    about it for him.

: Where have I heard that before?  Something like "Why do *you* care
: that we beat up the Negros?"  Lynchings start with such words.

If you are equating my complaints about RMS's usenet manners to the
enslavement and subsequent persecution and murder of blacks in the
United States, then you are truly insulting the memory of the blacks
who suffered and died under racial oppression for the past three
centuries.  I _sincerely_ doubt that I have done RMS (or anybody else)
any harm at all.  All complaints about RMS's behavior are brought on
by his behavior, and he could choose to behave otherwise if he didn't
want to offend people.  The truth is he just doesn't care, so he
doesn't bother.  The plight of blacks in the US was not (and is not)
of their own choosing.

: This last straw-man salvo is so bizarre that I can't figure who
: these acolytes are. 

I don't think there was any straw-man involved, I was just kvetching
about they way RMS's followers argue.  A straw-man argument would have
required that I posit a position as falsely being yours and then
attack _that_ position rather than the postion you had actually taken.
If you didn't recognize the behavior about which I was complaining,
then you must have missed out on a few discussions about the legal
status of the GPL.

: But I suppose this is offered as justification for attacking anyone
: who agrees with RMS on some issue.

I haven't attacked anybody.  Rather, I have criticised specific
behaviors of RMS and certain of his followers (whom I didn't even
mention by name).

: Your venomous posting offends me and many other readers of
: comp.lang.scheme.  

I apologize if I have offended anybody, but you were the one who
started the thread about how nobody should criticise RMS, and you are
the only one who has expressed any disagreement with my criticism of
RMS's behavior.  If you can't understand why people are offended by
his behavior, then there really isn't any point in discussing this
further.

: As long as I read this group I will try to actively
: bear witness of expressions of hatred directed against *anyone*.

I haven't expressed hatred against anybody, despite your attempt to
paint me with the same brush as KKK members lynching blacks.  I
complained about what I consider rude and conceited behavior on the
part of RMS and his followers.  You apparently don't see any basis for
the complaints made by myself and others.

That's fine, but I don't see why you have taken it upon yourself to
try to squelch criticism of RMS on usenet.  If RMS thinks he's being
unjustly criticised, then he can either defend himself or stop doing the
things for which he's being criticised.

Feel free to have the last word on the subject, I'm done posting about
this.

--
Grant Edwards                                 |Yow!  Where's the Coke
Rosemount Inc.                                |machine?  Tell me a joke!!
                                              |
grante@rosemount.com                          |
